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Niacinamide Or Just Plain Niacin?

Discussion in 'B3/Niacinamide' started by DMF, Jan 26, 2013.

  1. DMF

    DMF Member

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    Which is the one that can help with sleep/anxiety? Are they the same thing or not - 'just came from the health food store, left confused.
     
  2. kettlebell

    kettlebell Member

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    They are the same vitamin (B3) but in slightly different chemical forms. Niacin on its own can cause strong skin flushing in larger doses so its a good idea to get the Niacinamide as it doesn't cause any flushing.

    I believe I have seen cliff say in another thread he takes 100-200mg per day to good effect.

    The problem with pill forms are the other ingredients and fillers so make sure you check those before buying. If you can get hold of beyond a century powder thats preferable.
     
  3. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Niacinamide is what you want.
     
  4. OP
    DMF

    DMF Member

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    The "No Flush" is like $20+ dollars per bottle! Too costly!
     
  5. kiran

    kiran Member

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  6. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    You can always take Vit E, Vit C, selenium, niacin.

    Niacin has been used extremely successfully by Abram Hoffer to treat a large number of diseases, notably depressions/ bipolar disorders/ schizophrenias and heart disease.

    Some people took/ needed 30 g / day (!) for their symptoms to disappear, and were fine .

    I myself took for a while 3 g/ day and felt very well; had to downgrade somehow because i'm subject to migraines sometimes.

    There's a terrific book by Andrew Saul and Hoffer: "Niacin: the real story"
     
  7. jyb

    jyb Member

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    Is the niacin you mention interchangeable with niacinamide?
     
  8. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    I believe niacin can be taken at any doses without any liver complications. Niacinamide , if i remember correctly, does cause some liver discomfort taken at very high dosages, altough i can't tell you for sure on the moment .

    EDIT: I've looked back in the book, and Hoffer cites sustained-release niacine ( designed not to cause flushing) that causes liver toxicity. Niacinamide is harmless. My bad.

    "Sustained-, extended-, and time-release niacin are often advertised as not causing a flush at all. This claim may not be completely true; sometimes the flush is just postponed. It may be difficult to determine your optimum level with an extended-, sustained-, or time-release product. All three are also more costly. But the biggest reason to avoid sustained-release niacin is that relatively more reports of side effects stem from use of that form. 7A 2007 review by Guyton and Bays of many niacin therapy studies reveals that regular (“ immediate release,” or IR) niacin is quite safe; extended- or time-release are safe, but unnecessarily pricey, and sustained release (SR) has the most side effects. They write: Shortly after Altschul and colleagues described cholesterol lowering by niacin in 1955, sustained-release (SR) formulations were developed in an attempt to reduce flushing. However, these were quickly found to be hepatotoxic in some patients. . . . Henkin et al. 19found 8 cases of hepatitis in 15 patients using SR niacin, compared with none in 67 patients using regular niacin. Three patients who had experienced hepatitis with SR niacin were subsequently able to tolerate equal or higher doses of regular niacin. 20McKenney et al. 3directly compared IR and SR niacin in a randomized clinical trial with dosage escalation from 500 to 3,000 mg/ day over a period of 30 weeks. None of the 23 patients taking IR niacin developed hepatotoxic effects, whereas 12 of 23 patients (52%) taking SR niacin did. The increase in liver toxicity with SR niacin mainly occurred with doses 1,500 mg/ day. 8[ Citations numbered as in original source.



    It's all in the book.

    Niacin works by improving circulation ( the same way progesterone does) and can alleviate a lot of diseases. You can even revive a kidney that supposedly has been declared dead by doctors.

    The niacin flush didn't bother me at all; i actually enjoyed it and when hapenning just before bed time, it made my whole body nice and warm and i could fall asleep more easily.

    This flush is caused by the sudden liberation of histamine reserves; if you take it at 8 hours intervals, the flush will only happen the very first time because after 8 hours the cell won't be able to reconstitute enough histamine to cause a second flush.

    Be warned; the first 1 g dose i took made feel like i was standing in the sahara desert at 60 degrees centigrades, lol. It lasted 15 minutes.
     
  9. jyb

    jyb Member

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    Thanks for the idea and the reference, seems worth reading more about it.

    I see that some niacin forms (other than niacinamide) are "flush free", do you have an opinion about those? See http://www.beyond-a-century.com/Flush-Free-Niacin-Powder--120-grams_p_206.html
     
  10. Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    I think I see why niacin might have made me depressed. If it frees histamines. I think I have some histamine intolerance. All that histamine release might effect mood it seems to me if your body has trouble clearing histamines.
     
  11. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Hoffer on Inositol hexanicotinate :

    It still doesn't say what a safe dosage is, but i would guess with 3g/ day you should be OK as far as liver is concerned.


    Hoffer at first believed the cholesterol propaganda about heart disease, but his experiences with niacine convinced him another mechanism was at work:

    He concluded than niacin protects from the effects of adrenochrome, formed from adrenaline, inside the heart muscle cells.

    Some other advantages of Niacin:
    One can count on Hoffer, he's a honest researcher without any axe to grind. I have 100% trust in his scientific integrity.(doesn't mean of course he's always right)

    Niacin, Coronary Disease and Longevity
    by Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ient=opera
     
  12. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Aspirin and magnesium decrease the histamine flush: Vit C destroys it directly.
    Google "Antihistamine Action Of Vitamin C"
     
  13. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    Ray Peat always recommends niacinamide to inhbit release of free fatty acids.
    In this interview with Josh Rubin ( at 94 minutes) RP said that nicotinic acid and Inositol hexanicotinate both increases Serotonine and prostaglandin activity.

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... -endotoxin
     
  14. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Mittir, excellent post. Thank you. :hattip
     
  15. jyb

    jyb Member

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    How come nicotinic acid and Inositol hexanicotinate would do that, but niacinamide wouldn't?
     
  16. Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    Lots of information. Thanks. I will look at the interview. I have read that vitamin C helped dispose of excess histamine. Maybe the aspirin and magnesium would help, too.
     
  17. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    A quote from Hoffer's book:

     
  18. pone

    pone Member

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    Can someone summarize the advantages and disadvantages of each of the forms of Vitamin B3? This is an area with amazing new research, but I frankly find it hard to keep up with all of the variations.

    Niacin (aka Nicotinic Acid) of course causes flushing, and I am not sure of its affects on NAD+ compared to the other B3 variants. Niacin apparently reduces cholesterol, whereas Niacinamide does not.

    Niacinamide (aka Nicotinamide) apparently activates the anti-aging sirtuin genes, but then I read conflicting research that says at high doses niacinamide suppresses those same genes. One study talks about nicotinamide binding to a receptor site that suppresses Sirtuins:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15780941
    I read other places that niacinamide is part of an anti-aging strategy yet suppressing Sirtuins doesn't seem to be consistent with that?

    Nicotinamide riboside is the newly discovered nucleoside precursor of NAD+ in eukaryotic systems, and it has the advantage that it does NOT inhibit sirtuins. Nicotinamide riboside may be the only vitamin precursor that supports neuronal NAD+ synthesis:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24071780
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18429699
    In theory, this form of B3 should offer the best of all worlds, increasing NAD+, not suppressing Sirtuins, and avoiding the flushing of Niacin. But, because it is newer, it is also not well studied. So we don't really know if it is safe in humans, and in what doses.

    Is Ray Peat advocating niacinamide, and if yes based on what actions?

    Is there any sense in taking all of these in some combination, or perhaps just niacin for lower cholesterol, and nicotinamide riboside for the NAD+ enhancement that does not suppress sirtuins?

    And what is the best dosing for an anti-aging regimen? I read the posts online here, and honestly they are random number generators. You have people taking 50 mg of niacinamide once a day, and others taking 1500 mg several times a day. Up to 3 gm per day appears to be safe but it is not clear what that level might do to other vitamins, minerals, and metabolites. You pretty much get the feeling that no one has any basis for their actions here other than pure subjective feeling, and that is pretty scary.

    Jim Watson has a very interesting summary of the NAD+ generation issues in point #1 of his article on top anti-aging developments of 2013:
    http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2014 ... g-in-2013/
     
  19. tara

    tara Member

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    Large statistically significant studies can give better estimates for averages. But none of us is an average. We are all diferent, have different deficiencies/imbalances/weaknesses, and respond to many things differently. Some of the dosing I've read about here for niacinamide (and other supplements too) people have arrived at by noticing that if they take some they feel better, but if they take more something gets worse. It seems that for some people it can drop blood sugars quickly. So hypothetically, people who are prone to issues arising when blood sugar plummets may be more sensitive to this effect than people who more easily maintain stable blood sugar levels. It is a bit scary that we don't always know what we are doing - I certainly wish I could have more solid knowledge of what I need. Pure subjective feeling is not completely reliable. But a standard dose prescribed for everyone would be unlikely to be optimal for many people.

    Sometimes I wish I would get a clear subjective feeling about the effects of something I am doing. I think some people manage to develop more awareness of what serves them by the practice of experimenting and being attentive.

    Compare it with salt or water - some people need more than others, and taste or thirst may provide the best guidance. Or magnesium - some people lose it faster than others, or assimilate it more or less easily.

    I've been taking ~100mg twice daily. The couple of times I've taken a lot more (eg ~400mg), I've had migraines follow. Could have been other factors. But I'm hoping I get some benefit from the smaller amount I take. I know others claim benefits from much more. If I were suppe;lementing for general longevity, and didn't have a serious issue I was trying to rectify, I'd likely stick to lower doses of vitamin and mineral supplements, unless/until I'd seen clearer evidence.

    I guess people who are into this for general longevity reasons, and feel healthy all the time, and don't have any significant health complaints, may ind it even more difficult to read from symptoms. But from where I am now, that would seem an enviable position, and not one shared by most of the people here.

    I can't answer the rest of your questions, other than yes, RP has often recommended niacinamide.
     
  20. aguilaroja

    aguilaroja Member

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    Yes, Dr. Peat has mentioned helpful effects of niacinamide in certain contexts. There have been decades of research and application about niacin and its relatives, thanks in large part to Abram Hoffer's pioneering orthomolecular work. It is beyond my logistics to succinct summarize the various views. "Plain" niacin as a vitamin causes a flushing effect that apparently reflects increases in prostaglandin D2 and serotonin.

    The importance of sirtuin functions in human health and longevity is at best TBD. And sirtuins have been invoked in advocacy of calorie restriction and resveratrol regimes that Dr. Peat does not esteem:

    viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1316

    "The “longevity gene,” named Sir2 in yeasts, worms, and flies (its equivalent in mammals is called SirT1), is activated by restricting calories, and caloric restriction is known to extend lifespan (though the restriction of certain nutrients can similarly increase longevity, without restricting calories). Both semi-starvation and increased activity of the Sir2 gene can prevent obesity, and obesity has some harmful effects. The promoters of the theory suggest that a resveratrol-like drug will be able to prevent obesity and cure type-2 diabetes. They are also suggesting that it could slow aging and increase longevity.

    Talking about the “aging” of a single-celled organism such as yeast, and drawing conclusions about the aging of multicellular organisms and humans, from events in the life of yeast, is meaningful only to people who subscribe to the Hayflick doctrine, and who deny the reality of stem cells in mammals and other complex organisms."

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/re ... tion.shtml

    "Niacinamide is a nutrient that inhibits the release of fatty acids, and it also activates phagocytic activity and lowers phosphate. It protects against the development of scars in spinal cord injuries, facilitates recovery from traumatic brain injury, and accelerates healing generally. While it generally supports immunity, it’s protective against autoimmunity. It can cause tumor cells to either mature or disintegrate, but it prolongs the replicative life of cultured cells, and protects against excitotoxicity.

    The amounts needed seem large if niacinamide is thought of as “vitamin B3,” but it should be considered as a factor that compensates for our unphysiological exposure to inappropriate fats. Aspirin and vitamin E are other natural substances that are therapeutic in “unnaturally” large amounts because of our continual exposure to the highly unsaturated plant-derived n-3 and n-6 fats."

    Some of Dr. Peat's thoughts are excerpted here:

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... acinamide/

    William Kaufman, M.D. used niacinamide for decades in practice to relieve debilitating arthritis, so one can say it has a pretty long track record.

    http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman.html

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24559077

    Nutr Neurosci. 2014 Feb 21. [Epub ahead of print]
    Nicotinamide and neurocognitive function. Rennie G, Chen AC, Dhillon H, Vardy J, Damian DL.
    Abstract
    Nicotinamide, or vitamin B3, is a precursor of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) and is involved in a multitude of intra- and inter-cellular processes, which regulate some of the cell's metabolic, stress, and immune responses to physiological or pathological signals. As a precursor of NAD+, which is a key coenzyme in the production of adenosine triphosphate or cellular energy, nicotinamide has been investigated for potential neuroprotective effects in cellular, animal, and human studies. Objectives We aimed to summarize the current evidence on the effect of dietary and supplemental nicotinamide on cognitive function. Methods A literature review was conducted on the effects of nicotinamide and its derivatives as a preventive and therapeutic agent for disorders of neurocognitive function. Specific conditions examined include age-related cognitive decline, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and ischaemic and traumatic brain injury. Results Data from animal and human interventional studies and epidemiological research suggests that nicotinamide may be beneficial in preserving and enhancing neurocognitive function. Discussion Nicotinamide is non-toxic, inexpensive and widely available, and interventional studies in humans, using supplemental doses of nicotinamide, are now warranted.

    J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2008 Dec;327(3):665-72. doi: 10.1124/jpet.108.141333. Epub 2008 Sep 10.
    Niacin-induced "flush" involves release of prostaglandin D2 from mast cells and serotonin from platelets: evidence from human cells in vitro and an animal model.
    Papaliodis D1, Boucher W, Kempuraj D, Michaelian M, Wolfberg A, House M, Theoharides TC.
     
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