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Niacinamide Or Just Plain Niacin?

DMF

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Which is the one that can help with sleep/anxiety? Are they the same thing or not - 'just came from the health food store, left confused.
 

kettlebell

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They are the same vitamin (B3) but in slightly different chemical forms. Niacin on its own can cause strong skin flushing in larger doses so its a good idea to get the Niacinamide as it doesn't cause any flushing.

I believe I have seen cliff say in another thread he takes 100-200mg per day to good effect.

The problem with pill forms are the other ingredients and fillers so make sure you check those before buying. If you can get hold of beyond a century powder thats preferable.
 

charlie

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Niacinamide is what you want.
 

DMF

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The "No Flush" is like $20+ dollars per bottle! Too costly!
 

burtlancast

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You can always take Vit E, Vit C, selenium, niacin.

Niacin has been used extremely successfully by Abram Hoffer to treat a large number of diseases, notably depressions/ bipolar disorders/ schizophrenias and heart disease.

Some people took/ needed 30 g / day (!) for their symptoms to disappear, and were fine .

I myself took for a while 3 g/ day and felt very well; had to downgrade somehow because i'm subject to migraines sometimes.

There's a terrific book by Andrew Saul and Hoffer: "Niacin: the real story"
 

jyb

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burtlancast said:
You can always take Vit E, Vit C, selenium, niacin.

Niacin has been used extremely successfully by Abram Hoffer to treat a large number of diseases, notably depressions/ bipolar disorders/ schizophrenias and heart disease.

Some people took/ needed 30 g / day (!) for their symptoms to disappear, and were fine .

I myself took for a while 3 g/ day and felt very well; had to downgrade somehow because i'm subject to migraines sometimes.

There's a terrific book by Andrew Saul and Hoffer: "Niacin: the real story"

Is the niacin you mention interchangeable with niacinamide?
 

burtlancast

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jyb said:
Is the niacin you mention interchangeable with niacinamide?

I believe niacin can be taken at any doses without any liver complications. Niacinamide , if i remember correctly, does cause some liver discomfort taken at very high dosages, altough i can't tell you for sure on the moment .

EDIT: I've looked back in the book, and Hoffer cites sustained-release niacine ( designed not to cause flushing) that causes liver toxicity. Niacinamide is harmless. My bad.

"Sustained-, extended-, and time-release niacin are often advertised as not causing a flush at all. This claim may not be completely true; sometimes the flush is just postponed. It may be difficult to determine your optimum level with an extended-, sustained-, or time-release product. All three are also more costly. But the biggest reason to avoid sustained-release niacin is that relatively more reports of side effects stem from use of that form. 7A 2007 review by Guyton and Bays of many niacin therapy studies reveals that regular (“ immediate release,” or IR) niacin is quite safe; extended- or time-release are safe, but unnecessarily pricey, and sustained release (SR) has the most side effects. They write: Shortly after Altschul and colleagues described cholesterol lowering by niacin in 1955, sustained-release (SR) formulations were developed in an attempt to reduce flushing. However, these were quickly found to be hepatotoxic in some patients. . . . Henkin et al. 19found 8 cases of hepatitis in 15 patients using SR niacin, compared with none in 67 patients using regular niacin. Three patients who had experienced hepatitis with SR niacin were subsequently able to tolerate equal or higher doses of regular niacin. 20McKenney et al. 3directly compared IR and SR niacin in a randomized clinical trial with dosage escalation from 500 to 3,000 mg/ day over a period of 30 weeks. None of the 23 patients taking IR niacin developed hepatotoxic effects, whereas 12 of 23 patients (52%) taking SR niacin did. The increase in liver toxicity with SR niacin mainly occurred with doses 1,500 mg/ day. 8[ Citations numbered as in original source.



It's all in the book.

Niacin works by improving circulation ( the same way progesterone does) and can alleviate a lot of diseases. You can even revive a kidney that supposedly has been declared dead by doctors.

The niacin flush didn't bother me at all; i actually enjoyed it and when hapenning just before bed time, it made my whole body nice and warm and i could fall asleep more easily.

This flush is caused by the sudden liberation of histamine reserves; if you take it at 8 hours intervals, the flush will only happen the very first time because after 8 hours the cell won't be able to reconstitute enough histamine to cause a second flush.

Be warned; the first 1 g dose i took made feel like i was standing in the sahara desert at 60 degrees centigrades, lol. It lasted 15 minutes.
 
Last edited:

jyb

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burtlancast said:
I believe niacin can be taken at any doses without any liver complications. Niacinamide , if i remember correctly, does cause some liver discomfort taken at very high dosages, altough i can't tell you for sure on the moment .

It's all in the book.

Thanks for the idea and the reference, seems worth reading more about it.

I see that some niacin forms (other than niacinamide) are "flush free", do you have an opinion about those? See http://www.beyond-a-century.com/Flush-Free-Niacin-Powder--120-grams_p_206.html
 

Swandattur

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I think I see why niacin might have made me depressed. If it frees histamines. I think I have some histamine intolerance. All that histamine release might effect mood it seems to me if your body has trouble clearing histamines.
 

burtlancast

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Hoffer on Inositol hexanicotinate :

The main disadvantage of the niacin derivatives will be cost. Inositol hexanicotinate is an ester of inositol and niacin. In the body it is slowly hydrolyzed releasing both of these important nutrients. The ester is more effective than niacin in lowering cholesterol and triglyceride levels, Abou El-Enein, Hafez, Salem and Abdel (1983). I have used this compound, Linodil, available in Canada but not the U.S.A. (at the time this paper was written) for thirty years for patients who can not or will not tolerate the flush. It is very gentle, effective, and can be tolerated by almost every person who uses it.

It still doesn't say what a safe dosage is, but i would guess with 3g/ day you should be OK as far as liver is concerned.


Hoffer at first believed the cholesterol propaganda about heart disease, but his experiences with niacine convinced him another mechanism was at work:

It is possible the beneficial effect of niacin is not due to the cholesterol effect but is due to a more basic mechanism. Are elevated cholesterol levels and arteriosclerosis both the end result of a more basic metabolic disturbance still not identified? If it were entirely an effect arising from lowered cholesterol levels, why did Clofibrate not have the same beneficial effect? An enumeration of some other properties of niacin may one day lead to this basic metabolic fault. Niacin has a rapid anti sludging effect. Sludged blood is present when the red blood cells clump together. They are not able to traverse the capillaries as well, as they must pass through in single file. This means that tissues will not receive their quota of red blood cells and will suffer anoxemia. Niacin changes the properties of the red cell surface membrane so that they do not stick to each other. Tissues are then able to get the blood they need. Niacin acts very quickly. Niacin increases healing, as it did with my gums. Perhaps it has a similar effect on the damaged intima of blood vessels.

He concluded than niacin protects from the effects of adrenochrome, formed from adrenaline, inside the heart muscle cells.

Beamish and his coworkers (1981, 1981a, 1981b) in a series of reports showed that myocardial tissue takes up adrenalin which is converted into adrenochrome, that it is the adrenochrome which causes fibrillation and heart muscle damage.

Under severe stress as in shock or after injection of adrenalin, a large amount of adrenalin is found in the blood and absorbed by heart tissue. Severe stress is thus a factor whether or not arteriosclerosis is present, but it is likely an arteriosclerotic heart can not cope with stress as well. Fibrillation would increase demand for oxygen which could not be met by a heart whose coronary vessels are compromised.

Niacin protects tissues against the toxic effect of adrenochrome, in vivo. It reverses the EEG changes induced by intravenous adrenochrome given to epileptics, Szatmari, Hoffer and Schneider (1955), and also reverse the psychological changes, Hoffer and Osmond (1967). In synapses NAD is essential for maintaining noradrenalin and adrenalin in a reduced state. These catecholamines lose one electron to form oxidized amine. In the presence of NAD this compound is reduced back to its original catecholamine. If there is a deficiency of NAD the oxidized adrenalin (or noradrenalin) loses another electron to form adrenochrome (or noradrenochrome). This change is irreversible. The adrenochrome is a synaptic blocking agent as is LSD. Thus niacin which maintains NAD levels decreases the formation of adrenochrome. It is likely this also takes place in the heart and if it does it would protect heart muscles from the toxic effect of adrenochrome and from fibrillation and tissue necrosis. None of the other substances known to lower cholesterol levels are known to have this protective effect. Niacin thus has an advantage: (1) in lowering cholesterol and, (2) in decreasing frequency of fibrillation and tissue damage.

Some other advantages of Niacin:
One of the most exciting findings is that niacin will protect against cancer. A conference at Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine at Fort Worth early this year, was the eighth conference to discuss niacin and cancer. (Titus,1987). The first was held in Switzerland in 1984.

In the body niacin is converted to nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD). NAD is a coenzyme to many reactions. Another enzyme, poly (Adenosine adenine phosphate ribose) polymerase, uses NAD to catalyze the formation of ADP-ribose. The poly (ADP-ribose) polymerase is activated by strands of DNA broken by smoke, herbicides, etc. When the long chains of DNA are damaged, poly (ADP-ribose) helps repair it by unwinding the damaged protein. Poly (ADP-ribose) also increases the activity of DNA ligase. This enzyme cuts off the damaged strands of DNA and increases the ability of the cell to repair itself after exposure to carcinogens.

Jacobson and Jacobson (Hostetler (1978) believe niacin (more specifically, NAD) prevents processes which lead to cancer. They found that one group of human cells given enough niacin and then exposed to carcinogens developed cancer at a rate only one-tenth of the rate in the same cells not given niacin. Cancer cells are low in NAD.

It is not surprising that niacin also decreased the death rate from cancer in the National Coronary Drug Study. The first cancer case I treated was given niacin 3 grams per day and ascorbic acid 3 grams per day, Hoffer (1970).

Niacinamide also increases the production of NAD. Three grams per day given to juvenile diabetics produced remissions in a large proportion of these young patients, Vague, Vialettes, Lassman-Vague, and Vallo (1987). They concluded, "Our results and those from animal experiments indicate that, in Type I diabetes, nicotinamide slows down the destruction of B cells and enhances their regeneration, thus extending remission time." See also Yamada, Nonaka, Hanafusa, Miyazaki, Toyoshima and Tarui (1982). Kidney
tissue is protected by niacinamide, Wahlberg, Carlson, Wasserman and Ljungqvist (1985). It protected rats against the diabetogenic effect of Streptozotocin. Clinically niacin has been used to successfully treat patients with severe gIomerulonephritis. One of my patients was being readied for dialysis. Her nephrologist had advised her she would die if she
refused. She started on niacin 3 grams per day. She is still well twenty-five years later.

Niacin and niacinamide are protective in a large number of diseases. I will refer to one or more its ability to reduce fluid loss in cholera, Rabbani, Butler, Bardhan and Islam (1983). It inhibits and reverses intestinal secretion caused by cholera toxin and E. coli enterotoxin. It reduces diarrhea associated with pancreatic tumors in man.

One can count on Hoffer, he's a honest researcher without any axe to grind. I have 100% trust in his scientific integrity.(doesn't mean of course he's always right)

Niacin, Coronary Disease and Longevity
by Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... ient=opera
 

burtlancast

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Swandattur said:
I think I see why niacin might have made me depressed. If it frees histamines. I think I have some histamine intolerance. All that histamine release might effect mood it seems to me if your body has trouble clearing histamines.

Aspirin and magnesium decrease the histamine flush: Vit C destroys it directly.
Google "Antihistamine Action Of Vitamin C"
 

charlie

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Mittir, excellent post. Thank you. :hattip
 

Swandattur

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Lots of information. Thanks. I will look at the interview. I have read that vitamin C helped dispose of excess histamine. Maybe the aspirin and magnesium would help, too.
 

burtlancast

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A quote from Hoffer's book:

Some 50 percent of the population of the developed world seems to suffer from disorders or diseases that respond beneficially to niacin or niacinamide supplementation. This figure is probably an underestimate. Sufferers from arthritis (20 percent), addictions (10 percent), children with learning and/or behavioral disorders (5 percent), cardiovascular disease, coronary disease and stroke (30 percent), cancer (50 percent), schizophrenia, or severe stress (unknown) would very likely improve if given more niacin.
 

pone

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Can someone summarize the advantages and disadvantages of each of the forms of Vitamin B3? This is an area with amazing new research, but I frankly find it hard to keep up with all of the variations.

Niacin (aka Nicotinic Acid) of course causes flushing, and I am not sure of its affects on NAD+ compared to the other B3 variants. Niacin apparently reduces cholesterol, whereas Niacinamide does not.

Niacinamide (aka Nicotinamide) apparently activates the anti-aging sirtuin genes, but then I read conflicting research that says at high doses niacinamide suppresses those same genes. One study talks about nicotinamide binding to a receptor site that suppresses Sirtuins:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15780941
I read other places that niacinamide is part of an anti-aging strategy yet suppressing Sirtuins doesn't seem to be consistent with that?

Nicotinamide riboside is the newly discovered nucleoside precursor of NAD+ in eukaryotic systems, and it has the advantage that it does NOT inhibit sirtuins. Nicotinamide riboside may be the only vitamin precursor that supports neuronal NAD+ synthesis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24071780
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18429699
In theory, this form of B3 should offer the best of all worlds, increasing NAD+, not suppressing Sirtuins, and avoiding the flushing of Niacin. But, because it is newer, it is also not well studied. So we don't really know if it is safe in humans, and in what doses.

Is Ray Peat advocating niacinamide, and if yes based on what actions?

Is there any sense in taking all of these in some combination, or perhaps just niacin for lower cholesterol, and nicotinamide riboside for the NAD+ enhancement that does not suppress sirtuins?

And what is the best dosing for an anti-aging regimen? I read the posts online here, and honestly they are random number generators. You have people taking 50 mg of niacinamide once a day, and others taking 1500 mg several times a day. Up to 3 gm per day appears to be safe but it is not clear what that level might do to other vitamins, minerals, and metabolites. You pretty much get the feeling that no one has any basis for their actions here other than pure subjective feeling, and that is pretty scary.

Jim Watson has a very interesting summary of the NAD+ generation issues in point #1 of his article on top anti-aging developments of 2013:
http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2014 ... g-in-2013/
 

tara

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pone said:
And what is the best dosing for an anti-aging regimen? I read the posts online here, and honestly they are random number generators. You have people taking 50 mg of niacinamide once a day, and others taking 1500 mg several times a day. Up to 3 gm per day appears to be safe but it is not clear what that level might do to other vitamins, minerals, and metabolites. You pretty much get the feeling that no one has any basis for their actions here other than pure subjective feeling, and that is pretty scary.

Large statistically significant studies can give better estimates for averages. But none of us is an average. We are all diferent, have different deficiencies/imbalances/weaknesses, and respond to many things differently. Some of the dosing I've read about here for niacinamide (and other supplements too) people have arrived at by noticing that if they take some they feel better, but if they take more something gets worse. It seems that for some people it can drop blood sugars quickly. So hypothetically, people who are prone to issues arising when blood sugar plummets may be more sensitive to this effect than people who more easily maintain stable blood sugar levels. It is a bit scary that we don't always know what we are doing - I certainly wish I could have more solid knowledge of what I need. Pure subjective feeling is not completely reliable. But a standard dose prescribed for everyone would be unlikely to be optimal for many people.

Sometimes I wish I would get a clear subjective feeling about the effects of something I am doing. I think some people manage to develop more awareness of what serves them by the practice of experimenting and being attentive.

Compare it with salt or water - some people need more than others, and taste or thirst may provide the best guidance. Or magnesium - some people lose it faster than others, or assimilate it more or less easily.

I've been taking ~100mg twice daily. The couple of times I've taken a lot more (eg ~400mg), I've had migraines follow. Could have been other factors. But I'm hoping I get some benefit from the smaller amount I take. I know others claim benefits from much more. If I were suppe;lementing for general longevity, and didn't have a serious issue I was trying to rectify, I'd likely stick to lower doses of vitamin and mineral supplements, unless/until I'd seen clearer evidence.

I guess people who are into this for general longevity reasons, and feel healthy all the time, and don't have any significant health complaints, may ind it even more difficult to read from symptoms. But from where I am now, that would seem an enviable position, and not one shared by most of the people here.

I can't answer the rest of your questions, other than yes, RP has often recommended niacinamide.
 

aguilaroja

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tara said:
pone said:
And what is the best dosing for an anti-aging regimen

Some of the dosing I've read about here for niacinamide (and other supplements too) people have arrived at by noticing that if they take some they feel better, but if they take more something gets worse. It seems that for some people it can drop blood sugars quickly... other than yes, RP has often recommended niacinamide.

Yes, Dr. Peat has mentioned helpful effects of niacinamide in certain contexts. There have been decades of research and application about niacin and its relatives, thanks in large part to Abram Hoffer's pioneering orthomolecular work. It is beyond my logistics to succinct summarize the various views. "Plain" niacin as a vitamin causes a flushing effect that apparently reflects increases in prostaglandin D2 and serotonin.

The importance of sirtuin functions in human health and longevity is at best TBD. And sirtuins have been invoked in advocacy of calorie restriction and resveratrol regimes that Dr. Peat does not esteem:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1316

"The “longevity gene,” named Sir2 in yeasts, worms, and flies (its equivalent in mammals is called SirT1), is activated by restricting calories, and caloric restriction is known to extend lifespan (though the restriction of certain nutrients can similarly increase longevity, without restricting calories). Both semi-starvation and increased activity of the Sir2 gene can prevent obesity, and obesity has some harmful effects. The promoters of the theory suggest that a resveratrol-like drug will be able to prevent obesity and cure type-2 diabetes. They are also suggesting that it could slow aging and increase longevity.

Talking about the “aging” of a single-celled organism such as yeast, and drawing conclusions about the aging of multicellular organisms and humans, from events in the life of yeast, is meaningful only to people who subscribe to the Hayflick doctrine, and who deny the reality of stem cells in mammals and other complex organisms."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/re ... tion.shtml

"Niacinamide is a nutrient that inhibits the release of fatty acids, and it also activates phagocytic activity and lowers phosphate. It protects against the development of scars in spinal cord injuries, facilitates recovery from traumatic brain injury, and accelerates healing generally. While it generally supports immunity, it’s protective against autoimmunity. It can cause tumor cells to either mature or disintegrate, but it prolongs the replicative life of cultured cells, and protects against excitotoxicity.

The amounts needed seem large if niacinamide is thought of as “vitamin B3,” but it should be considered as a factor that compensates for our unphysiological exposure to inappropriate fats. Aspirin and vitamin E are other natural substances that are therapeutic in “unnaturally” large amounts because of our continual exposure to the highly unsaturated plant-derived n-3 and n-6 fats."

Some of Dr. Peat's thoughts are excerpted here:

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... acinamide/

William Kaufman, M.D. used niacinamide for decades in practice to relieve debilitating arthritis, so one can say it has a pretty long track record.

http://www.doctoryourself.com/kaufman.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24559077

Nutr Neurosci. 2014 Feb 21. [Epub ahead of print]
Nicotinamide and neurocognitive function. Rennie G, Chen AC, Dhillon H, Vardy J, Damian DL.
Abstract
Nicotinamide, or vitamin B3, is a precursor of nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) and is involved in a multitude of intra- and inter-cellular processes, which regulate some of the cell's metabolic, stress, and immune responses to physiological or pathological signals. As a precursor of NAD+, which is a key coenzyme in the production of adenosine triphosphate or cellular energy, nicotinamide has been investigated for potential neuroprotective effects in cellular, animal, and human studies. Objectives We aimed to summarize the current evidence on the effect of dietary and supplemental nicotinamide on cognitive function. Methods A literature review was conducted on the effects of nicotinamide and its derivatives as a preventive and therapeutic agent for disorders of neurocognitive function. Specific conditions examined include age-related cognitive decline, Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, and ischaemic and traumatic brain injury. Results Data from animal and human interventional studies and epidemiological research suggests that nicotinamide may be beneficial in preserving and enhancing neurocognitive function. Discussion Nicotinamide is non-toxic, inexpensive and widely available, and interventional studies in humans, using supplemental doses of nicotinamide, are now warranted.

J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2008 Dec;327(3):665-72. doi: 10.1124/jpet.108.141333. Epub 2008 Sep 10.
Niacin-induced "flush" involves release of prostaglandin D2 from mast cells and serotonin from platelets: evidence from human cells in vitro and an animal model.
Papaliodis D1, Boucher W, Kempuraj D, Michaelian M, Wolfberg A, House M, Theoharides TC.
 

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