Niacin NOT The Same As Niacinamide, Acts Differently Regarding Lipolysis?

AnonE

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OK so after an interesting niacin experiment (https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/amazing-workout-experience-with-niacin) I started doing more reading and I came across something that doesn't seem to add up. It seems to me, from reading posts here and other places, that Niacin and Niacinamide act very differently with opposite lipolysis effects.

Niacin: triggers lipolysis, i.e. breaks down existing fat cells in the body and liberates their contents into the bloodstream. Example source: Niacin, Exercise, and Sauna: Detoxification Program for You
"The niacin regimen simply happens to mobilize fat and toxins faster using these artificial approaches. In the schematic diagram lipolysis of fat and toxin below showing when lipolysis can occur, even sleep will lead to lipolysis and weight loss, and of course toxic release, along with the use of agents like Niacin and agents like ephedra."

Niacinamide: inhibits lipolysis, i.e. stops the body from breaking down fat for fuel and so increases your need for sugar. Example source: Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
"Niacinamide, by reducing lipolysis, would be another antiinflammatory agent that could help to interrupt the degenerative processes initiated by exposure to radiation."

But they're both Vitamin B3 I thought! But if what I'm quoting above is true, then they are acting very differently. For example people use Niacin for detoxing with e.g. exercise and sauna sweating to get the bad stuff out, after acute release into the bloodstream. But it seems the Peat-approach is to use niacinamide to prevent fat being broken down at all so that the bad stuff inside the fat cells don't enter the blood stream at all.

About 6 months ago I stopped taking niacinamide because I noticed anecdotally that I was unable to lose weight (fat) while taking it. I think weight loss necessarily means liberating what's in the fat cells and therefore having potentially bad stuff enter your blood stream. Maybe this explains the primary stressfulness of modern weight loss (especially if they end up rebounding, just putting the weight back on with crappy PUFA, then re-libering it in their blood via yo-yo crash dieting, etc).

So then my questions are just,

1) Is this summary correct, the two forms of vitamin B3 have opposite lipolysis actions?

2) Does this imply that niacinamide is unhelpful for losing fat?

Thanks
 

burtlancast

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Not adressing your main point, but there's another huge difference in that niacin causes a flush that favors nutrient exchange and toxin removal, while niacinamide does not.
 

Elie

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OK so after an interesting niacin experiment (https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/amazing-workout-experience-with-niacin) I started doing more reading and I came across something that doesn't seem to add up. It seems to me, from reading posts here and other places, that Niacin and Niacinamide act very differently with opposite lipolysis effects.

Niacin: triggers lipolysis, i.e. breaks down existing fat cells in the body and liberates their contents into the bloodstream. Example source: Niacin, Exercise, and Sauna: Detoxification Program for You
"The niacin regimen simply happens to mobilize fat and toxins faster using these artificial approaches. In the schematic diagram lipolysis of fat and toxin below showing when lipolysis can occur, even sleep will lead to lipolysis and weight loss, and of course toxic release, along with the use of agents like Niacin and agents like ephedra."

Niacinamide: inhibits lipolysis, i.e. stops the body from breaking down fat for fuel and so increases your need for sugar. Example source: Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
"Niacinamide, by reducing lipolysis, would be another antiinflammatory agent that could help to interrupt the degenerative processes initiated by exposure to radiation."

But they're both Vitamin B3 I thought! But if what I'm quoting above is true, then they are acting very differently. For example people use Niacin for detoxing with e.g. exercise and sauna sweating to get the bad stuff out, after acute release into the bloodstream. But it seems the Peat-approach is to use niacinamide to prevent fat being broken down at all so that the bad stuff inside the fat cells don't enter the blood stream at all.

About 6 months ago I stopped taking niacinamide because I noticed anecdotally that I was unable to lose weight (fat) while taking it. I think weight loss necessarily means liberating what's in the fat cells and therefore having potentially bad stuff enter your blood stream. Maybe this explains the primary stressfulness of modern weight loss (especially if they end up rebounding, just putting the weight back on with crappy PUFA, then re-libering it in their blood via yo-yo crash dieting, etc).

So then my questions are just,

1) Is this summary correct, the two forms of vitamin B3 have opposite lipolysis actions?

2) Does this imply that niacinamide is unhelpful for losing fat?

Thanks
Good question. How much niacin do you take?
 
OP
A

AnonE

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I just started up again, looking at taking 500mg before workouts a few times a week. Otherwise I have a daily multivitamin and B complex which almost certainly provide enough baseline amounts.

Back to the OP, this seems like a really important distinction lol. I wonder if anyone else noticed that high dose niacinamide interfered with weight loss? It was something I tried temporarily in 2018 after reading positive reviews on the forum.
 
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AnonE

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Bump, wonder if anyone else cares to comment. This seems like a potentially important issue, if say, one could take a form of Vit B3 that aids in detoxing and fat burning. I think it'd also be interesting to better understand the causes and benefits of the niacin flush, and contrast it with why niacinamide does not do it.
 
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Braveheart

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No easy answers here...what is it you want? They act differently...tons of info out there...study, then you decide. Here you will mostly get the Peat spiel...At the moment, I'm interested in lowering high cholesterol, so considering niacin, but haven't decided on protocol. They both have impressive attributes.
 

TeaRex14

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Honestly I've never gotten the impression Ray is anti-niacin. I just don't think he endorses supplementation with it, like in the case with niacinamide. When discussing coffee, Ray mentioned it's an excellent source of magnesium and niacin, and that he usually drinks 5 cups a day. Orange juice is relatively stacked with niacin too. So consuming niacin rich foods are fine, and supplementation with extra niacinamide may be needed depending on your situation. I also think niacinamide would slow weight loss, through lipolysis anyways. Even though lipolysis will produce fast weight loss, it's generally not healthy weight loss. If you have good thyroid function you can just oxidize the fat in the cells, which is the only healthy weight loss because it prevents the fatty acids from entering your serum and causing destructive side effects. So I would argue niacinamide doesn't inhibit fat loss, it just encourages healthy fat loss.
 

Goobz

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Masterjohn did a podcast on the different forms of B3 - that should answer your questions.

From memory, the summary was something like this:

Niacin gets converted into niacinamide in the liver. However since the liver can only process 40mg per hour, anything above that gets into the blood stream as niacin (nicotinic acid) which has physiological effects on immunity, lipid metabolism, and causes a flush. The conversion of niacin into niacinamide requires glycine, and you can sap your glycine / glutathione levels.

These effects are separate to the actions in the body after it's converted to niacinamide.

Both forms need to be methylated in order to be cleared from the body, and the pathway primarily seems to involve TMG/betaine (which is methylated glycine). Hence Masterjohn recommends taking TMG along with any form of B3, and perhaps glycine or collagen with the niacin form.
 

Elie

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Masterjohn did a podcast on the different forms of B3 - that should answer your questions.

From memory, the summary was something like this:

Niacin gets converted into niacinamide in the liver. However since the liver can only process 40mg per hour, anything above that gets into the blood stream as niacin (nicotinic acid) which has physiological effects on immunity, lipid metabolism, and causes a flush. The conversion of niacin into niacinamide requires glycine, and you can sap your glycine / glutathione levels.

These effects are separate to the actions in the body after it's converted to niacinamide.

Both forms need to be methylated in order to be cleared from the body, and the pathway primarily seems to involve TMG/betaine (which is methylated glycine). Hence Masterjohn recommends taking TMG along with any form of B3, and perhaps glycine or collagen with the niacin form.

Thank you for this. If by any chance you can easily find the link to Masterjohn's podcast and share it that would be great.
 

LeeLemonoil

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Niacinamide - something I assume/have found out implicitly- seems to prevent PUFA (or any fatty acids?) to enter the mitochondria so to not beta-oxidize. That might hamper fat-loss but prevents PUFA-damage.
 

cedric

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There is also Picamilon ( invented by Russians?) that binds B3+ GABA ,crosses BBB and aids in sleep.

Sometimes I take B3 and ribose, also with inosine ( to get adenine from that in purine cycle) and to increse NAD.

Purine nucleotide cycle - Wikipedia
"The purine nucleotide cycle is a metabolic pathway in which ammonia and fumarate are generated from aspartate and inosine monophosphate (IMP) in order to regulate the levels of adenine nucleotides, as well as to facilitate the liberation of ammonia from amino acids.[1] This pathway was first described by John Lowenstein, who outlined its importance in processes including amino acid catabolism and regulation of flux through glycolysis and the Krebs cycle. [2]"
Fumarate, inosine/uric acid , B3 are protective in SM. The purine cycle lowers aspartate.

There is a choice: B3 and inositol.
Myo-inositol phosphate synthase is NAD -dependent.
The structure of the 1L-myo-inositol-1-phosphate synthase-NAD+-2-deoxy-D-glucitol 6-(E)-vinylhomophosphonate complex demands a revision of the enzy... - PubMed - NCBI

Subcell Biochem. 2006;39:157-80.
The structure and mechanism of myo-inositol-1-phosphate synthase.
Geiger JH1, Jin X.
Author information
1
Chemistry Department, Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48824, USA.
Abstract
The first and rate-limiting step in the biosynthesis of myo-inositol is the conversion of D-glucose 6-phosphate to 1L-myo-inositol 1-phosphate catalyzed by 1L-myo-inositol 1-phosphate synthase (MIP synthase). MIP synthase has been identified in a wide variety of organisms from bacteria to humans and is relatively well-conserved throughout evolution. It is probably homotetrameric in most if not all cases and always requires NAD+ as a cofactor, with NADH being reconverted to NAD+ in the catalytic cycle.
 

Vinny

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Following.
Btw, NIACIN makes me sleepy. Dont like it much. An antihistamine effect?
 

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