New To Peat: Weightlifting?

[raypeatclips]

I'm the wrong person to ask behind the mechanisms which make nofap effective. You're right, it's probably not just T - but also other things like dopamine, estrogen, prolactin, etc. When I say "increases T" it's more of a blanket statement to say it seems to improve overall hormonal health, mood, etc. I always feel my best when my libido is highest too - so for me, the two are inter-related and thus if one goes up, the other almost always goes up as well, so it's an easy marker for me to gauge my current health levels.



Thanks, I just now realized there is a new member forum lol, so I never got around to posting there. I'm a very driven person when it comes to my goals. I've seen a few success stories around here, so I'm confident it can be done. If (when?!) I reach my goals I'll be sure to write about it and how I did it. My current goal is as follows:

PUFA / body fat depletion while eating Peat style

Read somewhere that some guy followed Peat style eating with basically ZERO fat, super high sugar/carb, moderate protein, and lost 45 lb in 4 months (so he managed a PUFA depletion in a mere 4 months!!)

So that means I'm probably gonna axe the cheese, and the 2% milk as well. Even those introduce too much fat. Lean meats & gelatin probably will be my go-tos for no-fat protein sources. Will continue fruits etc for sugar. Maybe a few starches here and there, but mostly sugar.

I may try Haidut's Protein concoction. 20g whey (without tryptophan), 30g gelatin, 20g casein. He did that twice a day for all his protein. It was part of his protocol to get a huge amount of T, so it seemed to work for him. He did that in the morning and evening. I guess the rest of the day, just sugar, sugar, and more sugar lol.

Be careful of doing things too extreme. Low fat caused me nothing but problems. Saturated fat is a very positive and useful thing to consume and has many benefits.

 

[Ulysses]

Be careful of doing things too extreme. Low fat caused me nothing but problems. Saturated fat is a very positive and useful thing to consume and has many benefits.

+1. I tried cutting fat to below 10% of calories, and among many other things, my weight skyrockted.

 

[Cirion]

+1. I tried cutting fat to below 10% of calories, and among many other things, my weight skyrockted.

How do you think the guy here was so successful in it then? Ray Peat Forums - What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

It sounds like he went ZERO fat, not just low fat. Dunno if the difference between 10% and 0% does much or not?

Just trying to understand. I'm definitely finding that I can eat sugar literally endlessly without satiation... I have to confess, I'm not yet entirely sold on this peat way of eating as such. How am I supposed to lose weight if I can just keep eating nonstop? You can't break the laws of calories in calories out...

 

[Ulysses]

How do you think the guy here was so successful in it then? Ray Peat Forums - What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

It sounds like he went ZERO fat, not just low fat. Dunno if the difference between 10% and 0% does much or not?

Just trying to understand. I'm definitely finding that I can eat sugar literally endlessly without satiation... I have to confess, I'm not yet entirely sold on this peat way of eating as such. How am I supposed to lose weight if I can just keep eating nonstop? You can't break the laws of calories in calories out...

Yeah, I tried that and gained a pile of weight. Having lots of saturated fat (30% of calories) keeps my weight stable. I really do believe the people who report success on very low fat diets, but it didn't work for me. Individual differences are many, so all I'd say to anyone considering an experiment with this is, be careful.

There's another factor, which is that if you're new to Peat, like I am, your metabolism is probably bad. Bad metabolisms don't handle sugars as well as good ones. And I ate low-carb with IF for a long time, so I'm probably still insulin resistant. I'm taking a year to focus on restoring insulin sensitivity and then I'll try it again.

Anyways, your skepticism is understandable, but I will say that, with the exception of this one thing, Peating has DRAMATICALLY improved my health. Everything else has caused a direct increase in my sense of well-being. So, even if the very low fat/high sugar argument doesn't convince you, try implementing the other things and see what happens.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah.... I feel like I need saturated fat for sanity/satiety... as I type this I'm extremely hungry again and about to go for more food lol... and I'm already at 2800 calories today (5000 yesterday). I feel like I'm gonna become so fat ... lol How are you planning to restore insulin sensitivity?

here is a pretty informative quote from the guy in that thread....

Ill do a very summerized version from when my metabolism really took off.

Started 3-4k zero fat, high starch diet.

Dropped 40lbs in 4 months or so. Literally melted off, metabolism improved greatly.

Got too skinny, people were commenting and i knew i had lost muscle as well. Also gut issues with all the starch started.

Read Edwards blog, decided to try. Round one of high sat fat, medium sugar was somewhat succesfull, except occasional heart issues. I know now it was the chocolate and coffee.

Did that for a few months with muscle improvement and no fat gain. This was amazing since in the past i would have balloned on so many fat cals.

Decided to go back to high carb for vegatarian reasons (ethical). This time it didnt work. Was always hungry, gut hated starch and fiber.

Went back to high fat but with emphasis on dairy, pork, eggs and sugar. This worked perfect.

Currently still on this but now eat more lenient. I eat a good amount of wheat and some non peat stuff occasionally. I also drink quite a bit with no ill effects. Still same size. Im in a new metabolic set pointi think and can pretty much do what i like.

So it would seem to start off, he actually went high starch, not so much high sugar. But his final diet was High saturated fats high sugar

Doesn't DaveFoster here do a High saturated fat high sugar diet as well? It's starting to looking like Saturated Fats, Sugar, Starch, Salt is the answer after all. Go figure. I remember reading that somewhere besides Peat. I believe it was on Anabolicmen. The "Four S's" they called it. Maybe we're on to something here...

One thing I'm not clear on though.

Should you lose the fat forcefully in your body first (by eating low fat diet) OR should you stick with eating a good amount of saturated fats from the get-go, even when trying to shed fat?? This I'm still not sure on... I guess though, low fat didn't work for you...

It's hard to know what's true in the nutrition world when you always learn something new that seems to conflict... haha

It's true that my mood is improving though. As I type this I feel pretty good. I was watching some anime earlier and found that I enjoyed it 10x more than I usually do, laughing at stupid scenes and just really into it, definitely a better mood.

 

[Ulysses]

Not sure what your definition of high starch is, but I was getting half my carbs from starch (oats/white rice) and still gained weight.

I generally agree about the Four S thing though. Salt in particular was a huge improvement for me. I need at least six grams of SODIUM per day to feel optimal.

 

[Cirion]

Not sure what your definition of high starch is, but I was getting half my carbs from starch (oats/white rice) and still gained weight.

I generally agree about the Four S thing though. Salt in particular was a huge improvement for me. I need at least six grams of SODIUM per day to feel optimal.

Re-reading his post, it looks like he didn't say anything about starch in his optimal diet, but just the saturated fats / sugar primarily. I'm surprised he didn't talk much about Gelatin. So once you went to mostly/all sugar, you stopped gaining weight? Definitely interesting... what is the mechanism behind which that works?? Starch fills me up quicker than sugar, so I eat way less calories if I eat starch. Will sugar eventually fill me up like starch? Or is it just that starch inhibits metabolism, and thus eating more with sugar is irrelevant because it increases metabolism? So many questions!! Haha!

I probably need to increase my salt intake. I do try to salt most of my stuff though, except liquids.

I'm hearing better success stories around here with minimizing liquids, and maximizing solid foods. Do you do primarily solid foods?

The need for salt probably increases alongside Fruit intake because potassium intake goes up alot with fruit intake. Need to balance that potassium increase with a sodium increase I would think.

 

[Ulysses]

Re-reading his post, it looks like he didn't say anything about starch in his optimal diet, but just the saturated fats / sugar primarily. I'm surprised he didn't talk much about Gelatin. So once you went to mostly/all sugar, you stopped gaining weight?

Nope. I replaced some of my sugars with saturated fats. I was still getting lots of sugars though, I think about 200 grams a day.

I probably need to increase my salt intake. I do try to salt most of my stuff though, except liquids.

That is ultimately why I’ve kept starches in my diet. I’m not done experimenting but so far I’ve had a really hard time getting down such a high volume of salt without starch.

I'm hearing better success stories around here with minimizing liquids, and maximizing solid foods. Do you do primarily solid foods?

Now I do, but back when i tried my very low fat experiment I was drinking tons of liquids, so that’s another variable I’ll change next time around.

 

[Luckytype]

Is it acceptable to assist thyroid by supplementing a little to allow for better function and THEN consider clearing pufa aggressively?

I dont consume any really ever btw, just sat fats

 

[Cirion]

Maybe that's why your low fat failed then, too much liquids? Trying to decide if I wanna experiment with the low fat to attempt to clear PUFA quicker or keep saturated fats in alongside the sugar... hmmm.... I'm getting my groceries tomorrow so I'll have to decide by then.

 

[stevrd]

Fatigue and excessive DOMS is usually a sign of poor cardiovascular work capacity, often from being sedentary. This is why it's good to do some type of LISS, which could even be just walking. The heart needs to be conditioned to an extent, just not excessively. Frequent training can help but is prohibitive for some people who work a lot. For me, I am able to keep my CNS functioning well by using linear periodization. Many people who experience CNS fatigue do not know how to program properly. They think they can just train the same way week in, week out, always going 100% on everything. This is a recipe for failure and plateaus.

I do the workouts below 2-3x per week on a rotation, resting 3-5 minutes between sets:

Workout A
Squat/Standing Press/Bent Over Row
Workout B
Bench/Deadlift/Weighted Pull Ups

*pushups and chin ups for GPP, walking outside in the sun nearly every day.

I use something like this to program/periodize my training:

The intensity doesn't get difficult until the 5th week. Then on week 6 you have somewhat of a deload, by decreasing the volume. Then the intensity gets very difficult on weeks 8-10. Then I take a week off after I hit a PR. This way, I am periodizing my volume and intensity, taking breaks from each one, and only training very intensely every few weeks or so, not for prolonged periods like many people do.

I have been lifting on and off for about 10 years and I can say that the issue with "CNS burnout" in most individuals has to do with either (A) training above 85% of 1RM for prolonged periods of time, (B) too much volume to recover from, or (C) too much cardio to recover from. What this boils down to is that the volume or intensity is too much to recover from for the individual. And it is highly individual, because a type A personality who works 80 hours per week and has children to provide for is going to have compromised recovery abilities, compared to say, the average high school/college student or a you tube star that works out for a living.

 

[stevrd]

Maybe that's why your low fat failed then, too much liquids? Trying to decide if I wanna experiment with the low fat to attempt to clear PUFA quicker or keep saturated fats in alongside the sugar... hmmm.... I'm getting my groceries tomorrow so I'll have to decide by then.

Like many on here, I tried low fat as well, but just felt like something was missing. If you haven't already, you may want to check out the research for how beneficial saturated fat is for decreasing visceral fat, and it's interesting that people who go on low fat diets can tolerate lower fat intake if from primarily saturated fat. If the diet is high in PUFA/MUFA, then percentage of fat calories need to be higher to "feel" normal. Ultimately what you will probably find is that the best macro ratio is a balanced one, somewhere around 25/25/50, fat/pro/carbs. And 25% of calories from fat really isn't that much, compared to what the standard American eats.

 

[Cirion]

Like many on here, I tried low fat as well, but just felt like something was missing. If you haven't already, you may want to check out the research for how beneficial saturated fat is for decreasing visceral fat, and it's interesting that people who go on low fat diets can tolerate lower fat intake if from primarily saturated fat. If the diet is high in PUFA/MUFA, then percentage of fat calories need to be higher to "feel" normal. Ultimately what you will probably find is that the best macro ratio is a balanced one, somewhere around 25/25/50, fat/pro/carbs. And 25% of calories from fat really isn't that much, compared to what the standard American eats.

Yeah there were several studies done that seem to support a breakdown of macros like that. I guess then, it sounds like there are two primary things that are opposed to what I thought to be the case...

1.) Sugar > Starch
2.) SFA > MUFA (I already knew about PUFA)

I find it hard to avoid MUFA's unless you're really neurotic about it, PUFA pretty easy to minimize. I find I'm at roughly a 2:1 SFA/MUFA ratio without worrying about it too much. Is that probably good enough? I believe a study was done that shows MUFA's increase testosterone as well (pretty much as much as SFA's, actually), so there's probably no need to eliminate it.

 

[stevrd]

Yeah there were several studies done that seem to support a breakdown of macros like that. I guess then, it sounds like there are two primary things that are opposed to what I thought to be the case...

1.) Sugar > Starch
2.) SFA > MUFA (I already knew about PUFA)

I find it hard to avoid MUFA's unless you're really neurotic about it, PUFA pretty easy to minimize. I find I'm at roughly a 2:1 SFA/MUFA ratio without worrying about it too much. Is that probably good enough?

It would depend on the source of MUFA. For example, although olives are a good source of sterols, I wouldn't recommend it as a major fat source. I get fat from milk, eggs, cheese, beef. No need to worry about getting PUFA lower than that IMO.

 

[YourUniverse]

MUFA arent overly harmful, some like oleic acid have some benefit. SFA are directly protective aganist PUFA, and some have potent benefits, like stearic acid in beef and chocolate for example.

I find low fat diets impossible too. My appetite seems unending.

That guy 'Zachs' from that other forum post you linked mentioned that he follows a type of "ancestral diet" with Peat, Weston A Price and Edwards(?) emphasis. If theres any credence to ancestral diets, then what hes doing would not work as well for you, unless you have a similar heritage - I think he mentioned being of swedish or eastern euro descent.

I read a book called "The Metabolic Typing Diet" that talks about all the ways one persons metabolism could be unique, and one of the major points was in being a "slow" or "fast" oxidizer. Fast oxidizers need foods that digest more slowly, like fatty high-purine meats; slow oxidizers need things that speed things up like fruit and sugars.

There is definitely something fishy going on, when seemingly half the people posting about weight and diet thrive on low fat, where the other half fail (and thrive on high fat). I wonder if oxidizer type is at least one of maybe many additional factors that are usually overlooked.

 

[Cirion]

It would depend on the source of MUFA. For example, although olives are a good source of sterols, I wouldn't recommend it as a major fat source. I get fat from milk, eggs, cheese, beef. No need to worry about getting PUFA lower than that IMO.

I assume you meant MUFA and not PUFA? Yeah, that's basically my fat sources as well. Sounds like we're on the same page.

 

[Jsaute21]

TL;DR - what should my weightlifting routine look like when trying to heal my endocrine system?

I come from a background of intense weightlifting, and have slowly toned it down over the years. At my peak (which probably helped trash my health), I was powerlifting training using 5/3/1, Starting Strength, etc. I made a lot of gains, but I also trashed my endocrine system.

Now I'm going to a top-end coaching facility, that tends to focus on health more than gains per-se, although they actually train a lot of more elite clients like professional baseball players in particular, and I know of one Olympic athlete they train as well. It's very expensive ($300/month), but I can say that I've learned a lot since going there, and they have helped a lot of my chronic aches and pains go away (I used to have chronic left shoulder pain, lower back pain etc) so they have done a great job of teaching me the proper movements to do to avoid problems.

However, as good as they are, now that we've passed the remedial exercises to fix my pains, and now we actually train heavy-ish again, I STILL feel like I'm overtraining - even though I only workout 3x a week, and each workout isn't insanely long (around 45 min). I don't feel anywhere near the symptoms I did from way back in my powerlifting days, but I do feel like this still negatively impacts my endocrine system. I don't feel horny after workouts (ironically, some of my lowest intensity workouts, I do), and I often feel a lower desire for a while afterwards as well. I told some of this to my trainer, so he told me to take a week off training which I did, and after that I did have some positive effects, but then slowly after incorporating workouts it started to degrade again. I remember reading here from another forum member that if you are not feeling an increased sexual appetite after a workout, then it's a waste of your time because it's not increasing your T (which is the whole point of working out - improve your endocrine system).

I have a contract with them for the rest of the year, so it'd be a waste of my hard earned cash to stop now, so what do you think I should do / tell them?

I really like these guys, and trust them SIGNIFICANTLY more than myself to design a well-balanced workout routine that results in symmetry rather than too much bench pressing or squatting, for example, which I tended to do when I tried to train myself, so it'd be a shame to ditch them entirely. I'm afraid if I went my own way, my problems would return because I wouldn't train with symmetry properly.

I can relate big time man. I am a former weight lifting addict who has decreased intensity and frequency of training significantly since I found peat. Than I came across an old Martin Beckham article and thought why not do RPT again? for 3 weeks or so I was bench pressing 275 for reps, deadlifting 405 for reps

Lower reps, with lengthy rest periods. Not getting out of breath. If they have hydraulic concentric machines maybe focus on those. Or if they have airdynes, rowing machines, bikes, those can all be used at a low intensity allowing you to focus on concentric exercise, which is restorative/anabolic to the mitochondria.

Spot on. In my experience, very heavy weight is a no no due to high eccentric load and the breathing patterns it initiates. I feel really good when I do dynamic effort training. Moderate weight moved explosively or sprints. Band speed bench, plyos etc. I fell back into my old habits a month or so ago and got back into Martin Berkhans RPT. Great program that gets you strong as hell but not good for metabolism IMO. I was deadlifting 405 10-12 times with a trap bar and felt like Fainting afterwards. Not good.

 

[stevrd]

I can relate big time man. I am a former weight lifting addict who has decreased intensity and frequency of training significantly since I found peat. Than I came across an old Martin Beckham article and thought why not do RPT again? for 3 weeks or so I was bench pressing 275 for reps, deadlifting 405 for reps


Spot on. In my experience, very heavy weight is a no no due to high eccentric load and the breathing patterns it initiates. I feel really good when I do dynamic effort training. Moderate weight moved explosively or sprints. Band speed bench, plyos etc. I fell back into my old habits a month or so ago and got back into Martin Berkhans RPT. Great program that gets you strong as hell but not good for metabolism IMO. I was deadlifting 405 10-12 times with a trap bar and felt like Fainting afterwards. Not good.

Martin Berkhan's program is not a good one because it does not periodize intensity and volume, it just has you going at 100% all the time. I find that when I train at 100%, I can do it for a good few weeks, and then I just crash. I experience symptoms of CNS fatigue and low libido. Periodizing training in a linear fashion doesn't produce this for me.

 

[Jsaute21]

Martin Berkhan's program is not a good one because it does not periodize intensity and volume, it just has you going at 100% all the time. I find that when I train at 100%, I can do it for a good few weeks, and then I just crash. I experience symptoms of CNS fatigue and low libido. Periodizing training in a linear fashion doesn't produce this for me.

Well said. I feel much better following someone like Pete Bommarito's programming.

 

[Glassy]

How do you think the guy here was so successful in it then? Ray Peat Forums - What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

It sounds like he went ZERO fat, not just low fat. Dunno if the difference between 10% and 0% does much or not?

Just trying to understand. I'm definitely finding that I can eat sugar literally endlessly without satiation... I have to confess, I'm not yet entirely sold on this peat way of eating as such. How am I supposed to lose weight if I can just keep eating nonstop? You can't break the laws of calories in calories out...

The general principle (as I understand it), is to first heal from the PUFA exposure and then later tweak macros and calories to get your desired result. Most people when they start Peating seem to have some metabolic dysfunction going on either from PUFA consumption, carb/calorie restriction or both. I liken it to the concept of “reverse dieting” in that we’re trying to stimulate (glucose) metabolism while minimising fat gain. I reason that we should be in a caloric surplus mainly from carbohydrates (sugars over starches) and minimising PUFAs (the metabolic brake). The problem with eating in a caloric surplus is that most of the fat you eat, is stored rather than burned. This is of course saturated fat and can be burnt later (more easily than PUFAs I’m assuming). Cutting fat completely will make most of us feel like crap but eat too much and you’ll stack it on.

There are quite a few people on here that are playing with macro variations to find one that suits them right now. We are all different people at different stages of healing so for every success story someone will follow and run into trouble. Why did you start looking into Peat’s work man?