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Oh yes, this is why heavy doses of AIs (or even light doses for some) kill a man’s libido as Estrogen sensitizes the androgen receptors, which then uptakes dht to act on that desire. And the balance of these hormones, amongst others, is extremely delicate. Good study!
arimidex does not cross the blood brain barrier. Sorry but can't remember the reference right now that compared the various ais and whether they can crossed the blood brain barrier.Oh yes, this is why heavy doses of AIs (or even light doses for some) kill a man’s libido as Estrogen sensitizes the androgen receptors, which then uptakes dht to act on that desire. And the balance of these hormones, amongst others, is extremely delicate. Good study!
Both the human studies above and the one you linked to show that estrogen has no role in actual sexual performance/function. It may a have partial role in sexual interest.
But you said low dopamine, which I would've bet the opposite for sex drive.
Not one, but two, human studies beg to disagree.
Male Sexual Function Does NOT Require Estrogen
Also, did you read the actual article or the study itself? It actually says right in the abstract that estrogen is partially required. Yet, when you read the actual study it says that the mice without aromatase (and thus estrogen) had the same sexual performance as intact mice, but were less interested in engaging in sex. It matches the findings of the human studies above, both of which found slightly reduced desire to engage in sex but no difference in performance. As such, the titles of both the popular press article and the study itself are plain wrong. Both the human studies above and the one you linked to show that estrogen has no role in actual sexual performance/function. It may a have partial role in sexual interest. However, how do you measure optimal level of sexual interest?? There is no standard as to how often one should want sex. There is only a standard as to actual performance of the sex act. Wanting sex all the time (without actual stimulation such as the presence of a naked and willing partner) is NOT a measure of health, but quite the opposite. It is a sign of elevated stress hormones and possibly low dopamine, especially in females. Constant, unprovoked, sexual desire is not much different than the "addiction" of an alcoholic or a drug user.
Brain Aromatase and the Regulation of Sexual Activity in Male Mice
"...Interestingly, the average mount length or intromission length was not different in intact bArKO mice compared with controls (Fig. 2B). The average mount latency, a measure of the average time to initiate the first mount, was approximately 2-fold higher in intact bArKO mice compared with controls (P < 0.05; Fig. 2C). There was a trend (P = 0.059) toward longer intromission latency in bArKO mice versus controls. Overall, intact bArKO mice spent less total time engaged in sexual behaviors such as mounting or intromission (Fig. 2D and more details in Supplemental Movies 1 and 2, available in an online data repository (47)). Taken together, these data suggest that while there was no difference in the qualitative acts associated with sexual behavior in intact bArKO and control mice, intact bArKO mice initiated these behaviors significantly less frequently."
@DennisX @JoeKool @schultz
Compulsive behavior is not usually driven by a healthy desire, it is more often driven by an urge to relieve stress. Gambling, drinking, excessive masturbation and stress in general are associated with low-dopamine instead of high. So, I am beginning to suspect that pramipexole has some stress promoting effects and this may be why Peat thinks it is not safe to try.
Stress Leads To Lower Dopamine And More Drinking
Pedophiles are known to have high prolactin and cortisol, they are often the exact opposite of what the popular press presents them as - sex-hungry masculine machines running around in high libido. It's more like under-sexed machines running around in high stress and frustration, attacking children because they cannot actually copulate with an adult woman. Epstein and Weinstein were known to more often masturbate in front of women instead of having sex with them. I think @Drareg talked about that, at least in regards to Weinstein's behavior, in one of his recent posts.
This is the abstract of the paper you posted "Brain Aromatase and the Regulation of Sexual Activity in Male Mice" (Brain Aromatase and the Regulation of Sexual Activity in Male Mice).
The biologically active estrogen estradiol has important roles in adult brain physiology and sexual behavior. A single gene, Cyp19a1, encodes aromatase, the enzyme that catalyzes the conversion of testosterone to estradiol in the testis and brain of male mice. Estradiol formation was shown to regulate sexual activity in various species, but the relative contributions to sexual behavior of estrogen that arises in the brain versus from the gonads remained unclear. To determine the role of brain aromatase in regulating male sexual activity, we generated a brain-specific aromatase knockout (bArKO) mouse. A newly generated whole-body total aromatase knockout mouse of the same genetic background served as a positive control. Here we demonstrate that local aromatase expression and estrogen production in the brain is partially required for male sexual behavior and sex hormone homeostasis. Male bArKO mice exhibited decreased sexual activity in the presence of strikingly elevated circulating testosterone. In castrated adult bArKO mice, administration of testosterone only partially restored sexual behavior; full sexual behavior, however, was achieved only when both estradiol and testosterone were administered together. Thus, aromatase in the brain is, in part, necessary for testosterone-dependent male sexual activity. We also found that brain aromatase is required for negative feedback regulation of circulating testosterone of testicular origin. Our findings suggest testosterone activates male sexual behavior in part via conversion to estradiol in the brain. These studies provide foundational evidence that sexual behavior may be modified through inhibition or enhancement of brain aromatase enzyme activity and/or utilization of selective estrogen receptor modulators.
Did you read the abstract? Or did you selectively quote a portion within the paper that agrees with your opinions?
I almost agree with you, except:
1) when I knock out my estrogens with Exemestane, I don't have any healthy sexual desire, let alone pulsions. No random sexual thoughts or erections even.
2) Epstein's face looked very masculine, how could this be achieved with high prolactin and high cortisol?
Sure, I did read the abstract...and the actual study.
As I mentioned in my post, the abstract says that estrogen is "...partially required for male sexual behavior". So, at best, partially required. Yet the popular press article just says "required". If it was absolutely required, then T supplementation should have had NO restorative effect, yet it "...partially restored sexual behavior". The definition of required is something without which the described concept (in this case sexual function) cannot occur at all. Yet, in this study, estrogen was NOT required at all for sexual performance, and only partially required for sexual interest/desire.
More importantly, the actual study text describes that they were talking about sexual interest/desire, not sexual performance. Both the estrogen deficient and non-deficient groups had equal sexual performance. So, the title of both the study and the popular press article should have been "Estrogen partially required for male sexual desire/interest, not required for actual sexual performance". I am not even sure if calling something "partially required" is correct semantically. Something can only be either required or non-required. No partial state possible. A more accurate way of phrasing would have been "Estrogen important for full sexual interest/desire, but not required for either desire or performance".
What part of that is selectively taking portions that confirm my point? If the actual text describing the results of the experiment contradicts what the abstract says, which one do you think takes precedence - the summarizing abstract or the actual experimental results of the paper?
Even if you don't like what I quoted from the mouse study, it is hard to argue with not one but two human studies, demonstrating estrogen is not at all required for male sexual performance, and the actual studies were even titled that way.
Was this lack of desire also in the presence of sexual stimulation? Did it affect performance? I am asking because the "desire" by itself is hard to quantify and describe what should be a healthy level of. Technically speaking, there should not really be a prolonged desire without a stimulus.
Yes, Epstein was known to actually have sex with the girls while Weinstein was mostly masturbating. That's why I focused on Weinstein in my post. But being a pedophile, Epstein was probably in some sort of compromised health and his looks may have been due to steroid use or some other androgenic therapy.
has effects on # of sexual events, time per event, and latency between events
On Exemestane there was no desire even during the act, like the brain-penis axis was broken.
How much were you taking? I think all AI drugs in higher doses affect the upstream steroids like pregnenolone/progesterone. There are several reports on this forum and also on bodybuilding websites that adding pregnenolone, or pregnenolone/DHEA, or progesterone, or progesterone/DHEA resolves the sexual desire issues despite the very low estrogen levels as a result of the AI drug. Despite the claims of pharma companies, I don't know of any AI drug that is selective only for the aromatase enzyme. They are all "promiscuous", similarly to the drug finasteride that is now known to be a lot more than a "selective" 5-AR inhibitor.
A lot, somewhere around 12.5mg every 2 days.
I never took it in conjunction with Preg, Prog or DHEA.
However, none of these steroids taken in isolation does anything for my libido.
Compulsive behavior is not usually driven by a healthy desire, it is more often driven by an urge to relieve stress. Gambling, drinking, excessive masturbation and stress in general are associated with low-dopamine instead of high. So, I am beginning to suspect that pramipexole has some stress promoting effects and this may be why Peat thinks it is not safe to try.
Stress Leads To Lower Dopamine And More Drinking
Pedophiles are known to have high prolactin and cortisol, they are often the exact opposite of what the popular press presents them as - sex-hungry masculine machines running around in high libido. It's more like under-sexed machines running around in high stress and frustration, attacking children because they cannot actually copulate with an adult woman. Epstein and Weinstein were known to more often masturbate in front of women instead of having sex with them. I think @Drareg talked about that, at least in regards to Weinstein's behavior, in one of his recent posts.