Need Help With Thyroid Results And T4 Supplementation

ilasj

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Hello all,

Am new here. Have been a lurker for quite sometime trying to read and understand ray's principles

Here are my thyroid test results. When I consulted an endo she put me on Synthroid 25 mcg even though I insisted her that I would prefer a t3 or a t4+t3 given my reverse t3 is high.

My iron is good, but my ferritin and B12 are a work in progress.

Would taking t4 do more harm than doing good?
 

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meatbag

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If you're in the us and you're diagnosed with hypothyroidism you're allowed to request NDT since its approved to treat the condition and she has to prescribe it
 
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Hello all,

Am new here. Have been a lurker for quite sometime trying to read and understand ray's principles

Here are my thyroid test results. When I consulted an endo she put me on Synthroid 25 mcg even though I insisted her that I would prefer a t3 or a t4+t3 given my reverse t3 is high.

My iron is good, but my ferritin and B12 are a work in progress.

Would taking t4 do more harm than doing good?

Welcome!
I reply to say hello to you,and indeed,you should get a combination of T4 and T3.I also 'bump' your thread for visibility,surely other members have more information on this.
 

Frankdee20

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Hello all,

Am new here. Have been a lurker for quite sometime trying to read and understand ray's principles

Here are my thyroid test results. When I consulted an endo she put me on Synthroid 25 mcg even though I insisted her that I would prefer a t3 or a t4+t3 given my reverse t3 is high.

My iron is good, but my ferritin and B12 are a work in progress.

Would taking t4 do more harm than doing good?

Horrible how they don’t accommodate patients
 

ilasj

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As an update, I started with the Synthroid 25 mcg 10 days ago and I have a weird reaction to it. I take the tablet at 8 am every morning and every night around 9-10 pm I have throat pain while trying to swallow that lasts for a couple of hours and goes away in the morning. It returns back every night around the same time.

At first I didn't think it was because of the Synthroid. But now am pretty sure it's the tablet that's causing me the reaction.

Has anyone heard of such a reaction before?
 

Collden

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Excipients and particularly dyes in these tablets can cause allergic reactions, is your pill colored?

Anyway the first thing to check with high rT3 is your diet. Fasting, too few calories or too few carbs can all increase rT3.
 

ilasj

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Excipients and particularly dyes in these tablets can cause allergic reactions, is your pill colored?

Anyway the first thing to check with high rT3 is your diet. Fasting, too few calories or too few carbs can all increase rT3.

My tablet seems to be pale orange in color.

I always thought my diet was carb heavy in general. May be it's not enough carbs?

I wasn't sure if I should stick to this tablet initially, but then I made up by mind to complete the 30 day course and go for new labs to see what difference it has made to my free t3 to see if I have any conversion issues.

I'm also supplementing with selenium 200 mcg.

After the retest, if my rt3 hasn't come down, I'm planning on adding a low dose of t3 to help with rt3.
 

mrchibbs

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My tablet seems to be pale orange in color.

I always thought my diet was carb heavy in general. May be it's not enough carbs?

I wasn't sure if I should stick to this tablet initially, but then I made up by mind to complete the 30 day course and go for new labs to see what difference it has made to my free t3 to see if I have any conversion issues.

I'm also supplementing with selenium 200 mcg.

After the retest, if my rt3 hasn't come down, I'm planning on adding a low dose of t3 to help with rt3.

I haven't seen much testimony of (any) success with t4 alone. I would try to argue for a t3/t4 combo next time, because that's not going to work otherwise.
The best safest approach is small, divided doses of a combo product, with food, and slowly increasing the total amount every 2 weeks or so until temperatures are about optimal.
(98F in the morning, and 98.6+ during the day)

Your throat pain is your thyroid enlarging, I've experienced this too early on when taking inappropriate dosage of thyroid.

Each dose of the combo product should be 0.5 grain (or 5 mcg of t3 /20mcg of t4) at the most. So tablets are helpful for this, you cut them up. That means if you increase your total daily quantity by 0.5 grain every 2 weeks until you reach the temperatures you want. Typically, over two months you may go from 0.5 grains to 2 grains a day total (which is the dose Broda Barnes mentioned was necessary for most people)

Also, I wouldn't supplement selenium necessarily, but instead make an effort to eat more shellfish every week. There are tons of minerals/nutrients involved in thyroid function, and isolated supplements don't really fix the problem.

Having a water filter to remove fluoride is necessary as fluoride can destroy the supplemental thyroid in your body. (as per Ray Peat). Getting enough sunlight is also crucial, as it can be difficult for thyroid supplements to work without some sun exposure.
 

ilasj

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I haven't seen much testimony of (any) success with t4 alone. I would try to argue for a t3/t4 combo next time, because that's not going to work otherwise.
The best safest approach is small, divided doses of a combo product, with food, and slowly increasing the total amount every 2 weeks or so until temperatures are about optimal.
(98F in the morning, and 98.6+ during the day)

Your throat pain is your thyroid enlarging, I've experienced this too early on when taking inappropriate dosage of thyroid.

Each dose of the combo product should be 0.5 grain (or 5 mcg of t3 /20mcg of t4) at the most. So tablets are helpful for this, you cut them up. That means if you increase your total daily quantity by 0.5 grain every 2 weeks until you reach the temperatures you want. Typically, over two months you may go from 0.5 grains to 2 grains a day total (which is the dose Broda Barnes mentioned was necessary for most people)

Also, I wouldn't supplement selenium necessarily, but instead make an effort to eat more shellfish every week. There are tons of minerals/nutrients involved in thyroid function, and isolated supplements don't really fix the problem.

Having a water filter to remove fluoride is necessary as fluoride can destroy the supplemental thyroid in your body. (as per Ray Peat). Getting enough sunlight is also crucial, as it can be difficult for thyroid supplements to work without some sun exposure.

Thank you for your detailed response. Appreciate your time.

I infact waited to consult with another hypothyroid specialist ( so called ) and I particularly requested her that I already have a prescription for t4 and that I came to her because I'm looking for a t4+t3 combo and she brushed it off with the usual explanation for t3 and why they don't recommend it because my labs are not that bad and that rt3 has no clinical significance in the medical world(?!?!)

I have emailed one of my older Endo and she may be willing to prescribe Armor. But I still wouldn't know until I meet with her for a remote appointment.

I'm using RO water, which is also bad as there are literally no minerals in a RO filtered water.

I will look at including shellfish in my diet.

Were you also experiencing throat pain during certain times of the day?
 

mrchibbs

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Thank you for your detailed response. Appreciate your time.

I infact waited to consult with another hypothyroid specialist ( so called ) and I particularly requested her that I already have a prescription for t4 and that I came to her because I'm looking for a t4+t3 combo and she brushed it off with the usual explanation for t3 and why they don't recommend it because my labs are not that bad and that rt3 has no clinical significance in the medical world(?!?!)

I have emailed one of my older Endo and she may be willing to prescribe Armor. But I still wouldn't know until I meet with her for a remote appointment.

I'm using RO water, which is also bad as there are literally no minerals in a RO filtered water.

I will look at including shellfish in my diet.

Were you also experiencing throat pain during certain times of the day?

I'm glad if you can get something helpful out of my comment.

I don't remember at what hours I experienced throat pain, but it was early on in my thyroid supplementation journey.

You really need to insist. Say it's your life and you want to try it, use rhetoric and say that they have no right to prevent you from trying to get better. You may have better luck with a general practioner who isn't as opinionated as a specialist. Make sure you keep researching and learning about the topic.

Have you read Broda Barnes' book: Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness. If not you should get a copy.

Yeah RO water is pretty terrible, although some systems have remineralization. One thing with thyroid, is it can cause pretty weird symptoms if you're deficient in magnesium.
But at least you shouldn't be getting too much fluoride, that's good. You'll need to make sure you're salting your food enough (i.e. to taste). Some carbonated mineral waters in glass bottles are really good and maybe helpful.

Oysters, in particular, are very good. Danny Roddy has some good resources on thyroid supplementation. You can access those if you become a Patreon (it's 1$ a month).
 

ilasj

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I'm glad if you can get something helpful out of my comment.

I don't remember at what hours I experienced throat pain, but it was early on in my thyroid supplementation journey.

You really need to insist. Say it's your life and you want to try it, use rhetoric and say that they have no right to prevent you from trying to get better. You may have better luck with a general practioner who isn't as opinionated as a specialist. Make sure you keep researching and learning about the topic.

Have you read Broda Barnes' book: Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness. If not you should get a copy.

Yeah RO water is pretty terrible, although some systems have remineralization. One thing with thyroid, is it can cause pretty weird symptoms if you're deficient in magnesium.
But at least you shouldn't be getting too much fluoride, that's good. You'll need to make sure you're salting your food enough (i.e. to taste). Some carbonated mineral waters in glass bottles are really good and maybe helpful.

Oysters, in particular, are very good. Danny Roddy has some good resources on thyroid supplementation. You can access those if you become a Patreon (it's 1$ a month).

Funny you mention about magnesium deficiency. I'm actually low in magnesium. Attaching my recent results herewith. Once I found out I was low in magnesium, I started supplementing orally and topically as well.

I will try to get a copy of the book you suggested.

I have tried multiple approaches with my doctors and I always fail. May be partly because they think T3 has nothing to help someone who is trying to conceive. They do win me over by saying that its TSH that gets to the placenta and not T3.
 

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mrchibbs

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Funny you mention about magnesium deficiency. I'm actually low in magnesium. Attaching my recent results herewith. Once I found out I was low in magnesium, I started supplementing orally and topically as well.

I will try to get a copy of the book you suggested.

I have tried multiple approaches with my doctors and I always fail. May be partly because they think T3 has nothing to help someone who is trying to conceive. They do win me over by saying that its TSH that gets to the placenta and not T3.

Oh I didn't realize you're trying to have a baby! Congratulations I'm sure you will succeed!

The TSH thing is a load of garbage though. TSH is a stress-based hormone which is there to stimulate thyroid production in an emergency setting, it is inflammatory in of itself.

You should really read as much as you can from Ray, he's talked about pregnancy and the health of women so much.

How are your temperatures? In the morning? You should be drinking enough milk/juice, and making sure your digestion is really smooth and efficient to keep endotoxin low. Ray's carrot salad removes endotoxin and excess estrogen in the bowel. Don't exercise, just go on gentle walks daily, or leisure swims, have fun. You may want to try applying progesterone (progest-e; layer on some body cream and add a few drops and massage in all over your body after a shower). I've read of women getting pregnant not long after after applying progesterone topically. (Because an excess of estrogen at any time prevents conception, or can stop any pregnancy, and progesterone is nature's strongest anti-estrogen).

You should get as much light as you can, this will raise your own endogenous levels of hormones, eating a little bit of liver (difficult for some, but if you make a liver pate it's delicious). Oysters in particular, are known to improve fertility in men, but they work just as well for women, being the best source of zinc/selenium and other trace minerals.

Topical magnesium is great and increases both thyroid and progesterone, while being profoundly soothing and relaxing. I like the naturalcalm.ca products.

Sometimes an underlying inflammation somewhere can prevent pregnancy, so I think a little bit of aspirin daily after meals would help greatly.
 

ilasj

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Oh I didn't realize you're trying to have a baby! Congratulations I'm sure you will succeed!

The TSH thing is a load of garbage though. TSH is a stress-based hormone which is there to stimulate thyroid production in an emergency setting, it is inflammatory in of itself.

You should really read as much as you can from Ray, he's talked about pregnancy and the health of women so much.

How are your temperatures? In the morning? You should be drinking enough milk/juice, and making sure your digestion is really smooth and efficient to keep endotoxin low. Ray's carrot salad removes endotoxin and excess estrogen in the bowel. Don't exercise, just go on gentle walks daily, or leisure swims, have fun. You may want to try applying progesterone (progest-e; layer on some body cream and add a few drops and massage in all over your body after a shower). I've read of women getting pregnant not long after after applying progesterone topically. (Because an excess of estrogen at any time prevents conception, or can stop any pregnancy, and progesterone is nature's strongest anti-estrogen).

You should get as much light as you can, this will raise your own endogenous levels of hormones, eating a little bit of liver (difficult for some, but if you make a liver pate it's delicious). Oysters in particular, are known to improve fertility in men, but they work just as well for women, being the best source of zinc/selenium and other trace minerals.

Topical magnesium is great and increases both thyroid and progesterone, while being profoundly soothing and relaxing. I like the naturalcalm.ca products.

Sometimes an underlying inflammation somewhere can prevent pregnancy, so I think a little bit of aspirin daily after meals would help greatly.

Thank you. It's been a struggle so far.

My waking temperature is fine I believe, however I haven't been measuring. May be I should start measuring my temps. But by how I feel, I feel warm. Although my hands and feet gets cold from 12 pm until 2/3 pm.

I have been using progest-e for the past couple of cycles and I believe I'm experiencing estrogen kick back symptoms in the cycles that I used Progest-E. It could have been too low of a dosage? Its little tricky to measure Progest-E by drops when its refrigerated.

I can't stomach liver so I take Dessicated Beef Liver tablets along with Spleen and Bone Marrow in hopes of bringing my ferritin up. My recent addition is to consume chicken feet broth for the collagen and gelatin.

It's been a long ride, but I hope bringing up my magnesium should help me a bit.

Thank you for bringing up aspirin and carrot salad, I have been wanting to try both but kept procrastinating. I will start with baby aspirin and carrot salad.
 

mrchibbs

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Thank you. It's been a struggle so far.

My waking temperature is fine I believe, however I haven't been measuring. May be I should start measuring my temps. But by how I feel, I feel warm. Although my hands and feet gets cold from 12 pm until 2/3 pm.

I have been using progest-e for the past couple of cycles and I believe I'm experiencing estrogen kick back symptoms in the cycles that I used Progest-E. It could have been too low of a dosage? Its little tricky to measure Progest-E by drops when its refrigerated.

I can't stomach liver so I take Dessicated Beef Liver tablets along with Spleen and Bone Marrow in hopes of bringing my ferritin up. My recent addition is to consume chicken feet broth for the collagen and gelatin.

It's been a long ride, but I hope bringing up my magnesium should help me a bit.

Thank you for bringing up aspirin and carrot salad, I have been wanting to try both but kept procrastinating. I will start with baby aspirin and carrot salad.

I'm sure you'll manage to become pregnant. Strangely enough (since I am a man and am not concerned with becoming a dad just yet) I've become really interested on pregnancy / maternal nutrition in the past year with my interest in early development and hormonal imprinting. So I know more than I should possibly lol


You should make sure to measure your temps. You should not get cold feet during the day at all. If you're not at 98F in the morning, and 98.6F throughout the day, it agains confirms that you're hypothyroid, and it undermines your entire attempt at getting pregnant:

By the 1930's, it was well established that the resistance of the organism depended on the energy produced by respiration under the influence of the thyroid gland, as well as on the adrenal hormones, and that the hormones of pregnancy (especially progesterone) could substitute for the adrenal hormones. In a sense, the thyroid hormone is the basic anti- stress hormone, since it is required for the production of the adrenal and pregnancy hormones. - Ray Peat

You should not put your progest-e bottle in the fridge. It's too cold for that. You're not experiencing estrogen kick-back symptoms, don't worry. Again, apply it topically each cycle, you'll have a better time I promise. And progesterone helps increase production of T3 (the thyroid hormone).

Drinking lots of milk is important too, fresh fruits and juices as well. Salty, gelatinous chicken broth is a great food. Make sure to salt to taste.

The carrot salad reduces endotoxin and normalizes estrogen, which helps your liver produce more T3. The aspirin is good for everything. Take it with your meal.
 

ilasj

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I'm sure you'll manage to become pregnant. Strangely enough (since I am a man and am not concerned with becoming a dad just yet) I've become really interested on pregnancy / maternal nutrition in the past year with my interest in early development and hormonal imprinting. So I know more than I should possibly lol


You should make sure to measure your temps. You should not get cold feet during the day at all. If you're not at 98F in the morning, and 98.6F throughout the day, it agains confirms that you're hypothyroid, and it undermines your entire attempt at getting pregnant:



You should not put your progest-e bottle in the fridge. It's too cold for that. You're not experiencing estrogen kick-back symptoms, don't worry. Again, apply it topically each cycle, you'll have a better time I promise. And progesterone helps increase production of T3 (the thyroid hormone).

Drinking lots of milk is important too, fresh fruits and juices as well. Salty, gelatinous chicken broth is a great food. Make sure to salt to taste.

The carrot salad reduces endotoxin and normalizes estrogen, which helps your liver produce more T3. The aspirin is good for everything. Take it with your meal.

Your other half is lucky! All the homework is taken care of :)

I wish I had started knowing about the complexities way before. But it's better late than never.

And yes thank you for all the great suggestions. I'm currently on acupuncture as well, my practitioner told me that it would help regulate blood flow.

It also worries me about my mid day cold feet and hands. I can't find the reason though. I do well during my morning and night.

Oh and my throat pain has subsided. May be my body just adjusted to the throid medication.

Regarding Progest-e, the cycles that I try I get severe breast soreness which otherwise has never been a problem. So I assumed it was the estrogen kicking back and put it down to an incorrect dose. I will try to up the dose this cycle. I somehow remember reading in one of the forums here that it is supposed to be stored in the refrigerator?

I will get started with temps, carrot salad and baby aspirin this cycle.
 

mrchibbs

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I suspect acupuncture is really good. I remember my grandpa used to get acupuncture and he was on cloud nine after each session.

Your throat pain may have been a small goiter (enlargement of the thyroid). It always goes away.

Have you considered ordering TyroMix? (haidut's T3-T4 product) IdeaLabs Online Store - Lab / R&D Chemicals

Read this thread here about breast tenderness: VERY Tender Breasts!

Basically, it should resolve if you fix your thyroid. Please let me know your morning temperature, leave a thermometer on your bedside table and put it in your mouth as soon as you wake up.

For your cold extremities, give this a try. Eat a salty snack, and then go for a walk (in nice surrounding if you can find a park). Listen to a podcast, it helps lessen the boredom. When you come back from the walk after eating a salty snack, you should have *really* warm hands and feets.

Drinking salty chicken broth at night before bed lowers adrenaline and cortisol, and might help immensely with sleep. Haagen Dasz Ice Cream (or make your own) is also a great snack. The baby aspirin is good, but finding aspirin powder is safer, because it doesn't have excipients. If you do order it, I'll show you how to prepare it.

Carrot salad is best in the afternoon, check out Emma's blog, she's got good stuff on pregnancy as well, as she managed to get pregnant a little bit later in life following Ray's ideas:

As I said, don't hesitate, if you have other questions, I learn a lot from people's experiences.
 

ilasj

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The thread about breast tenderness is eye opening. I currently take 25 mcg Synthroid once first thing in the morning. Do you think I can add 5 mcg of T3/Cytomel to it? Would the ratio be off this way? Also what would be a good dose of progesterone to be used in the second half of my cycle.

I have 11 more days left of my 30 day Synthroid supplementation. I originally wanted to retest my labs before concluding if T4 only is making any difference in my numbers. From how I feel, I don't feel any different taking Synthroid vs not taking it.

Sorry to ask this, as am very new to thyroid supplementation. Is Tyromix the same as any prescription thyroid medication in terms of efficacy? Is there a preference of one over another?

You have got some great suggestions for me here. You don't know how much I appreciate your time helping me, thank you!
 

mrchibbs

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The thread about breast tenderness is eye opening. I currently take 25 mcg Synthroid once first thing in the morning. Do you think I can add 5 mcg of T3/Cytomel to it? Would the ratio be off this way? Also what would be a good dose of progesterone to be used in the second half of my cycle.

I have 11 more days left of my 30 day Synthroid supplementation. I originally wanted to retest my labs before concluding if T4 only is making any difference in my numbers. From how I feel, I don't feel any different taking Synthroid vs not taking it.

Sorry to ask this, as am very new to thyroid supplementation. Is Tyromix the same as any prescription thyroid medication in terms of efficacy? Is there a preference of one over another?

You have got some great suggestions for me here. You don't know how much I appreciate your time helping me, thank you!

Since you already have Synthroid, getting some cynomel or any other t3 supplements may be a good way to balance it.
Can you break the Synthroid in half? If so that would give you 12.5mcg of T4 each half. If you take 5 mcg T3 along with that, you'd have a nice balance.

If I was you I'd stop taking the Synthroid until you got some t3 to go along with it, because if you're severely hypo as I suspect, you could just be creating a backlog of T4, which isn't getting converted. Sometimes we need more nutrition to be able to convert T4 into T3.

You really need to track your temperatures because otherwise it's really hard to understand thyroid's effects.

TyroMix is potentially better than any prescription thyroid medication, because it has a 2:1 T4:T3 ratio, which is Ray's recommendation for severely hypo people. And it can be dosed in really small individual doses, which is always better for absorption, and slowly ramping up.

My recommendations for taking progesterone topically is because it's nearly impossible to take too much of it topically. Start with 3-4 drops of Progest-E, and use some coconut oil or body cream to massage it into your body after a shower. Go with your symptoms and how it makes you feel. If you don't feel good, add a few more drops. It should only help. And take a break 1-2 weeks out of the month, that way you really get the benefits.
 

yhickfoe

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I have been taking thyroid hormone for many years and tweak things no end to get where I am now, which is 125mcg T4 and 25mcg T3 per day. 25mcg of T4 is a starting dose, that dose will have to be increased from there to around 75mcg to 125mcg depending on your weight until you get free T4 and free T3 levels in the upper ranges.

Also, I have been through so many different brands of T4, they all seem to feel slightly different, probably due to the various fillers. Same thing with T3, but I found that either worked or it didn't, but I still had to try many different brands before finding a good one.

If Synthroid doesn't work for you, it is likely the brand rather than T4 itself.
 

mrchibbs

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I have been taking thyroid hormone for many years and tweak things no end to get where I am now, which is 125mcg T4 and 25mcg T3 per day. 25mcg of T4 is a starting dose, that dose will have to be increased from there to around 75mcg to 125mcg depending on your weight until you get free T4 and free T3 levels in the upper ranges.

Also, I have been through so many different brands of T4, they all seem to feel slightly different, probably due to the various fillers. Same thing with T3, but I found that either worked or it didn't, but I still had to try many different brands before finding a good one.

If Synthroid doesn't work for you, it is likely the brand rather than T4 itself.

You're very right, different brands of thyroid all feel slightly different.

125 mcg T4 and 25 mcg T3 is a 5:1 ratio, I don't think that is suitable for everyone. Glad you've found a working dose for you though!

In fact, it's a higher ratio that what is found in the glandular products (between 4:1 and 3:1).

Moreover, the ratio notwithstanding, that dose is about 3 grains of thyroid. For most people (myself included) the therapeutic dose is 2 grains.

Ray has recommended a 2:1 ratio early on for hypothyroid people based on his research and understanding, and I think it's at least interesting to shoot for that, at least at first it makes sense to shoot for that, it time, when health returns and conversion of t4 into t3 improves, the ratio can change.

I think it makes sense for OP not to take t4 on its own, and wait to be able to start combining it with some t3, and in a ratio closer to 2:1, while very slowly ramping up the dose according to basal temperature and pulse.
 
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