Need help to figure out why I react so badly to coffee

[Astolfo]

I have significantly reduced my symptoms by strictly following a low histamine (and low salicylate) diet, and taking a mast cell stabilizer (ketotifen 4mg/day). Also by limiting non-food triggers.

Special diet makes me feel better but it does not improve my baseline.

@aliml I do not get caffeine intoxication symptoms from coffee. Also I did not use fluoxetine for long term. It was just for about a month, and at half dose.

 

[redsun]

No doubt I'm malnutritioned because I live in a 3rd world shithole with an economy equal or worse than the poorest balkan country. There is not much I can do about it. I can still afford to eat tons of potatoes or eggs or even some fruit but I hate the taste. I do not have appetite anymore honestly.

I do not think my diet has anything to do with this situation. I got diseased in november 2018 and aside from taking fluoxetine, nothing changed at that time. It just has nothing to do with food. Eating less actually helps. Ketogenic diet makes me feel better, waterfasting makes me feel better. I once not ate anything for 72 hours and it made my emotional numbness and cognitive impairment better. Even being hungry makes me feel better.


I used to be insomniac but my dreams were extremely vivid back then. Now I'm hypersomniac and my dreams are too shallow.

I couldn't actually understand the explanation with B1. It does increase ACh excessively and increase cortisol and reduce inflammation, right. Those are making me feel better. But its long term effects are also good. My hypotonia did not get worse, but better. I took more than 50 capsules of 100 mg so far in the last 2-3 weeks and it only made me feel better as the time passed. My tolerance to cold increased substantially and my motor symptoms also got improved as well. So is it still a bad thing to take B1 if I'm seeing good long term effects? I upped my copper intake so the fact that it opposes noradrenaline should be a lesser problem in the future, am I wrong?

Also I wonder, is it dangerous to take B1 if I do not eat enough choline? Could it possibly deplete my choline to very low levels?

Please reread my prior explanations in this thread on copper/serotonin. No one needs supraphysiological doses of thiamine. Just because it improves some things does not mean your problem is you need high dose B1. You need B1 and you should get the normal amounts from food.

A highly refined food diet can lead to B1 deficiency but a more normal one will not. Serotonin basically stops everything in the brain and copper deficiency leads to higher brain serotonin as well as many other negative changes that negatively affect your cogniton and emotional capability. Emotions and anhedonia point to low glutamate and dopamine activity. Again, serotonin kills all of these.

You need more salt (4-7g sodium daily), you need plenty of calories and protein and carbs to put your body in an anabolic state so it can heal the brain. So I really hope you are making a daily effort to eat properly and have a good eating schedule because otherwise you are wasting your own time running in circles with yoyoing starvation like state your body is being kept in. You can take or do whatever but if your body is constantly dealing with caloric and protein shortage, low sodium intake and overall low micronutrient intake, your will forever deal with anhedonia and impairments because the body will numb your emotions and keep you in a survival state until you get healthier.

Emotions mainly come from glutamate (which is the main excitatory neurotransmitter which is also needed to stimulate dopamine which is also necessary) and the main way to stimulate glutamate activity (assuming serotonin is not blocking it) is to eat a diet high in protein, meat especially. Sodium also helps because of its anti-serotonin action. Carbs increase T3. T3 then increases the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine. Everything is important.

 

[Astolfo]

I understand. I should not cut off meat and eggs even if they cause me worse symptoms (myoclonus/fasciculations included) then.

So at the end, the only thing left that's different from my normal is just eating liver regularly. Because in the back, I ate regularly and did not starved myself really. I consumed enough calories. Ate plenty different meals, vegetables etc. Used to consume lots of salt.

I think I may have found out what causes bad reaction to meat. It might be glutamate actually. Kinda similar reaction with MSG but this happens more slowly

But it does also not makes sense because my mind gets less active and really sedated.

 

[redsun]

I understand. I should not cut off meat and eggs even if they cause me worse symptoms (myoclonus/fasciculations included) then.

So at the end, the only thing left that's different from my normal is just eating liver regularly. Because in the back, I ate regularly and did not starved myself really. I consumed enough calories. Ate plenty different meals, vegetables etc. Used to consume lots of salt.

I think I may have found out what causes bad reaction to meat. It might be glutamate actually. Kinda similar reaction with MSG but this happens more slowly

But it does also not makes sense because my mind gets less active and really sedated.

Eggs you should avoid as I said before. If you eat meats that will contain higher levels of histamine this can be why you are getting such bad reactions. Processed/aged meats and beef steak and other beef cuts likely need to be avoided. Beef tends to be aged a considerable amount of time before it even reaches the grocery store which leads to elevated histamine levels in beef. Ground beef is usually fine but the ideal is eat fresh meats. Chicken and pork usually are fine but I think your issue is the meats you choose to eat are not as fresh and the histamine levels in them are too much for you which will mess with your nerves.

This is why you are comparing the feeling to MSG because MSG strongly triggers histamine activity. And I have experience this feeling myself from aged beef and MSG seasoning in food. I always sneeze from MSG junk food as well. People who supposedly have an MSG "allergy" don't actually. They just have elevated histamine levels which causes an exaggerated response to MSG because you cant be allergic to sodium or glutamate which are present in food. This, again, all goes back to copper and histamine issues that you deal with. It is very clear.

Choline rich foods like eggs should be avoided and often cause depression in high histamine types. And in severe cases (probably your case is somewhat more severe), choline not only depresses your mood but your entire nervous system and thus cognition. Unfortunately liver is a rich source of choline but this the only way to get copper you need and overall it is still more stimulating than sedating to the nervous system. As your copper levels increase, choline in food should not be as damaging to you. But you should always avoid eggs as of right now and you may, based on genetic issues with Ach metabolism need to avoid eggs indefinitely.

As for the histamine, histamine excess through the H3 receptor because inhibits every neurotransmitter in the brain besides being the autoreceptor for histamine.

 

[InChristAlone]

I agree with redsun you have to get in enough food to rebuild your body. I understand what it's like to feel like food is the enemy. But finding what works is the only way forward. Don't avoid food because it makes you feel bad.

 

[laleto12]

@redsun hi what are some high glutamate symptoms in your experience?

 

[redsun]

@redsun hi what are some high glutamate symptoms in your experience?

What I described in the previous post is not high glutamate but high histamine. If you have very high histamine MSG can be debilitating because of the mechanism I already mentioned and probably because of his low copper status. Elevated histamine levels do correlate with high glutamate, but if you are histadelic with low copper it is a nightmare instead of being more "enjoyable" so to speak because of the necessity of copper in producing many neurotransmitters important for feeling good and feeling euphoria from stimulation.

To answer your question though, assuming one is not copper deficient and otherwise is "healthy", A glutamate dominant person is basically a polar opposite of high GABA individual. You will be impulsive, and drawn to hedonism and prone to addictive behavior, obsessed with feeling good, and will also feel more intensely (emotional lability).

But, you will also be more prone to stress, anxiety, also insomnia. Its basically a manic personality. Hard for this to happen. Histadelics can be, but histamine also promotes GABA activity so usually more prerequisites are needed. Manganese toxicity can cause this, especially in cities with large amounts of car fumes as gas is filled with manganese so those who live in the cities likely inhale more manganese. Also eating a diet high in MSG will do it. Otherwise the body does a decent job at controlling glutamate levels in the body.

 

[laleto12]

What I described in the previous post is not high glutamate but high histamine. If you have very high histamine MSG can be debilitating because of the mechanism I already mentioned and probably because of his low copper status. Elevated histamine levels do correlate with high glutamate, but if you are histadelic with low copper it is a nightmare instead of being more "enjoyable" so to speak because of the necessity of copper in producing many neurotransmitters important for feeling good and feeling euphoria from stimulation.

To answer your question though, assuming one is not copper deficient and otherwise is "healthy", A glutamate dominant person is basically a polar opposite of high GABA individual. You will be impulsive, and drawn to hedonism and prone to addictive behavior, obsessed with feeling good, and will also feel more intensely (emotional lability).

But, you will also be more prone to stress, anxiety, also insomnia. Its basically a manic personality. Hard for this to happen. Histadelics can be, but histamine also promotes GABA activity so usually more prerequisites are needed. Manganese toxicity can cause this, especially in cities with large amounts of car fumes as gas is filled with manganese so those who live in the cities likely inhale more manganese. Also eating a diet high in MSG will do it. Otherwise the body does a decent job at controlling glutamate levels in the body.

You described me with glutamate dominance. However, there are too much info on these topics man. Too much speculation but sadly not any real improvements. Im getting sick of these health shenanigans

 

[Astolfo]

@redsun I try to get my head around of something since yesterday. I remember one of quotes of helen, it was explaining that histamine reactions from food are usually from chronic low histamine + upregulated histamine receptors. In this case, he said high levels of copper could be why histamine is low. This is the complete opposite of what we talked about above. So I assume I have low copper, high histamine, downregulated H receptors, but how do foods cause me reactions then?

Yesterday I ate some chicken, today I feel worse. My cogniton, motor control and cold intolerance, all gone worse. Pretty much every symptom. Muscles tremors happen more frequently. Emotions are gone and motivation is zero. I feel more brain dead.
Maybe I should just keep up with organ meats (Liver) and vegetables, fruits, legumes, pastry etc.

I noticed that I forgot to quote a few lines from your previous posts.
- That MSG containing noodle did not make me sneeze.
And secondly, meats or eggs affect me no worse when I take B1. B1 had really no negative effect on me, only the positives. It's been 48 hours since the last time I took it and I still feel improved. It looks like the changes are permanent. B1 did really improved my baseline, might be even more than copper. I'm actually sad to hear that I shouldn't take it.

 

[Astolfo]

Would it interrup my healing If I:
- Go full vegan except eating 500-800 gr liver a week
- Take supraphysical doses of B1 + B complex until I see any negative effect

 

[Astolfo]

Ever since I started B1, my motion sickness is dramatically increased. You probably all know, some anti-nausea medicines are dopamine antagonists. ACh opposes dopamine but it looks like Thiamine probably increased my dopamine too.

 

[InChristAlone]

You don't react well to any dairy? what about ice cream? I eat it melted because I don't like freezing cold foods. Veganism doesn't seem to be the answer here. And I don't think you have copper deficiency, blood labs are ridiculous at measuring metals. You could be storing it all in your liver and the only useful test for that would be liver biopsy. FYI vitamin A toxicity causes low plasma copper, but high copper in the liver. Your liver sounds jacked to me. And then you will start reacting to pretty much every food because your bile is toxic.

ETA: just to drive it home, liver disease is the silent disease, half of the people with liver disease won't show any major symptoms until it is already cirrhosed. Please don't take advice from the internet without doing your own research. This forum can be very dangerous.

 

[InChristAlone]

Acute cholestasis by fluoxetine - PubMed

Acute cholestasis by fluoxetine​

Forget about neurotransmitters and overly obsessive focus of manipulation of hormones and focus on healing your liver. Eliminate retinol and carotenoids, stop taking high dose supplements, consume soluble fiber to bind up your toxic bile (need to be pooping it out), and try to consume more red meat not less, you will react to all of this at first, you will feel your toxic bile coming out unfortunately, but it gets better and better.

Allergies are the result of bile being backed up into your liver because it's not flowing right, even Peat acknowledges this somewhat by saying a food that isn't digested well will result in a congested nose later on. As an example, my Mom has chronic allergies, she has a constant running nose, she had a diseased gallbladder and had it removed but didn't do anything about why it got diseased (partying), and now she has GERD, she has to take strong meds just to feel some relief, it doesn't even completely stop her acid because it can also be refluxing toxic bile acids. Food makes her feel awful, she avoids red meat because she can't digest it and she just gets worse every yr. Going vegan is the LAST thing you want to do with cholestasis. Reacting to coffee is a sure sign your liver is backed up. The bitterness causes bile to be released and then it likely gets reabsorbed back into your bloodstream and you react to it. It's way way more simple than manipulating neurotransmitters which will send you down so many rabbit holes you will be lost.

 

[redsun]

@redsun I try to get my head around of something since yesterday. I remember one of quotes of helen, it was explaining that histamine reactions from food are usually from chronic low histamine + upregulated histamine receptors. In this case, he said high levels of copper could be why histamine is low. This is the complete opposite of what we talked about above. So I assume I have low copper, high histamine, downregulated H receptors, but how do foods cause me reactions then?

Yesterday I ate some chicken, today I feel worse. My cogniton, motor control and cold intolerance, all gone worse. Pretty much every symptom. Muscles tremors happen more frequently. Emotions are gone and motivation is zero. I feel more brain dead.
Maybe I should just keep up with organ meats (Liver) and vegetables, fruits, legumes, pastry etc.

I noticed that I forgot to quote a few lines from your previous posts.
- That MSG containing noodle did not make me sneeze.
And secondly, meats or eggs affect me no worse when I take B1. B1 had really no negative effect on me, only the positives. It's been 48 hours since the last time I took it and I still feel improved. It looks like the changes are permanent. B1 did really improved my baseline, might be even more than copper. I'm actually sad to hear that I shouldn't take it.

You will always have high histamine with reactions if copper is low because histamine builds up and even though the body does try to downregulate H receptors to compensate it can only do it so much. Histamine overload will never go away unless you can metabolize the histamine.

MSG doesnt make everyone sneeze but it can. The point is it causes acute histamine reactions.

You need B1 from food, not insane doses. Wait a while longer (weeks) for it to clear out of your system and then see where you are.

Ever since I started B1, my motion sickness is dramatically increased. You probably all know, some anti-nausea medicines are dopamine antagonists. ACh opposes dopamine but it looks like Thiamine probably increased my dopamine too.

Acetylcholine, not dopamine, is what increases susceptibility to motion sickness so no surprise B1 did that.

Would it interrup my healing If I:
- Go full vegan except eating 500-800 gr liver a week
- Take supraphysical doses of B1 + B complex until I see any negative effect

You realize this type of eating will just promote other deficiencies such as zinc. Do not take any B-vitamins right now because I know they are making everything worse even if you get the impression that you are improving or better with them. I know you react to foods especially proteins but this is part of why I am telling you to avoid B supplements and get it from food. You are in an incredibly awkward position with your food reactions versus what I am telling you so I apologize if its hard to deal with that but a low protein and low animal food diet fixes nothing and breaks everything. As sugarbabe already asked, if you can do dairy consume that as well and as I said before the calcium is very important for you and you need to be getting the bioavailable form through dairy. Do what you can as best as you can.

If you have already consumed pounds of liver since we first got you on it which I am sure you have, you no longer have copper deficiency and continuing consumption of liver due to the high vitamin A content will now be counterproductive to your healing. Eat normal food, let your body excrete the excess B-vitamins and be patient.

Acute cholestasis by fluoxetine - PubMed

Acute cholestasis by fluoxetine​

Forget about neurotransmitters and overly obsessive focus of manipulation of hormones and focus on healing your liver. Eliminate retinol and carotenoids, stop taking high dose supplements, consume soluble fiber to bind up your toxic bile (need to be pooping it out), and try to consume more red meat not less, you will react to all of this at first, you will feel your toxic bile coming out unfortunately, but it gets better and better.

This is a great find. But yes in the past his tests showed very high zinc, very low copper and ceruloplasmin and he has a history of high zinc consumption through supplementation. This was the point and the only point really to liver consumption. He has consumed more than adequate amounts of liver for the purpose of fixing copper status.

 

[Astolfo]

You don't react well to any dairy? what about ice cream?

Well, that's mixed. I did not observed it thorougly yet.

vitamin A toxicity causes low plasma copper, but high copper in the liver.

That's interesting because fluoxetine messes up with retinol metabolism the same way as Accutane does.

You need B1 from food, not insane doses. Wait a while longer (weeks) for it to clear out of your system and then see where you are.

You are in an incredibly awkward position with your food reactions versus what I am telling you so I apologize if its hard to deal with that but a low protein and low animal food diet fixes nothing and breaks everything.

If I continue eat meat, I will probably go back to my bedridden days. It will be nightmarishly bad but I can endure it if going vegetarian will not cure me.

Acetylcholine, not dopamine, is what increases susceptibility to motion sickness so no surprise B1 did that.

I did not know that. Actually, I used to have motion sickness which is gone since PSSD. B1 just returned that it seems.

if you can do dairy consume that as well and as I said before the calcium is very important for you and you need to be getting the bioavailable form through dairy. Do what you can as best as you can.

I can eat plenty of yogurt and drink milk but I heard that UHT (ultra homogenized) and pasteurized milk has unavailable calcium and makes you even more calcium deficient. I do not know if that's the case with yogurt too. Also, the tiny fat particles from homogenization process are problematic and may cause autoimmune problems from what I heard. If you think UHT/homogenized milk/yogurt is okay I can get them in plenty.

 

[redsun]

Well, that's mixed. I did not observed it thorougly yet.

That's interesting because fluoxetine messes up with retinol metabolism the same way as Accutane does.


If I continue eat meat, I will probably go back to my bedridden days. It will be nightmarishly bad but I can endure it if going vegetarian will not cure me.


I did not know that. Actually, I used to have motion sickness which is gone since PSSD. B1 just returned that it seems.


I can eat plenty of yogurt and drink milk but I heard that UHT (ultra homogenized) and pasteurized milk has unavailable calcium and makes you even more calcium deficient. I do not know if that's the case with yogurt too. Also, the tiny fat particles from homogenization process are problematic and may cause autoimmune problems from what I heard. If you think UHT/homogenized milk/yogurt is okay I can get them in plenty.

You will not get bedridden from eating more meat.

UHT milk is fine for calcium. That is nonsense I assure you. So if you have to, do less meat and more dairy for now but do eat fresher meat.

So I guess B1 isnt just benefits after all huh? B1 especially but all B-vitamins in high doses increase Ach synthesis drastically. They will also increase histamine reactions because of the relationship between Ach and histamine. You will deal with more reactions for many reasons but also because Ach reduces norepinephrine and epinephrine, which like cortisol, are our natural anti-histamines but through different mechanisms. Healthy adrenal gland activity (norepinephrine, epinephrine) stops most allergic reactions but you really aren't giving your body a chance because of all the Bs.

No liver anymore, and No B-vitamins. I think sugarbabe has the right idea about bile and you should work on this angle as well while B-vitamins leave your system. Bitter foods stimulate bile production. Fat in general so some fat in the diet is important.

 

[Astolfo]

UHT milk is fine for calcium. That is nonsense I assure you. So if you have to, do less meat and more dairy for now but do eat fresher meat.

Good to learn. I used to drink at least 500 ml milk with coffee every day for a long time. I stopped months ago when I learned it.

So I guess B1 isnt just benefits after all huh?

Well, I do not prefer to see it that way. I used to have motion sickness before PSSD, as I said. It's more like a normalizing effect to me.
Not only it returned motion sickness but it also made me more socially anxious as before. Taking B1 had really significant effects on me, it's not comparable to "anything" really.

You will not get bedridden from eating more meat.

I already kind of did. My cognition was much superiour a few days ago. Eating meat instantly lowers my baseline. Cognition, motor abilities and emotions. It causes huge emotional numbness. My tolerance to cold decreased too much, I'm shivering again. My brain feels like swollen and I have very uncomfortable feeling in general.

I even noticed that not eating meat had reduced my nerve pains but I'm again started to get those pains. Just, looking at the total, this is why I insisted to ask you more than a few times because I literally get toxicated from meat.

I do not think this is because of indigestion by the way.

No liver anymore, and No B-vitamins. I think sugarbabe has the right idea about bile and you should work on this angle as well while B-vitamins leave your system. Bitter foods stimulate bile production. Fat in general so some fat in the diet is important.

I used to drink coffee very regularly and ate bitter foods and fats etc. I even tried liver flush once but nothing happened after I drunk olive oil mix.

I do not know what is going to change if I do not do anything. There were times that I eat more meat and as far as I remember, eating more protein or nutritious hasn't really done me good. It's been 4 years already and this is the first time that I see an improvement in real sense (B1).

What do you think about the C-Fos gene by the way? Studies show fluoxetine increases this gene. And C-Fos downregulates ACh levels in the body. This matches with my experience with thiamine so far.

Need help to figure out why I react so badly to coffee

Interestingly, both Copper and Fluoxetine reduce the expression of CCK receptors. Fluoxetine is a cholinesterase or acetylcholinesterase (AChE) inhibitor. Cholecystokinin (CCK)، Glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1), Serotonin, Acetylcholine, Zinc, Fish Oil, etc are factors that stimulate your Vagus...

raypeatforum.com

Chronic fluoxetine or desmethylimipramine treatment alters 5-HT2 receptor mediated c-fos gene expression

These studies examined the effects of a 21-day treatment regime with either the tricyclic antidepressant, desmethylimipramine (DMI), or the selective …

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[maillol]

Has anyone mentioned vitamin A yet? My caffeine tolerance has improved massively since going on a low A diet.

 

[mostlylurking]

@redsun I did not mean that actually. In fact, taking B1 only made me feel much different in a good way. It improved my cognition, motor abilities and even emotions maybe. I did not see any negative effects from B1 yet. And the problem with eggs are, I don't think related to the choline content. It was just because of that it is animal protein imo.

I just posted info and links you might find helpful here: B1

 

[Astolfo]

I just posted info and links you might find helpful here: B1

Yeah I read them.

My biggest concern with Thiamine is, could it possibly harm homeostasis and make me dependent on it? Like through upregulating AChase/C-Fos or downregulating Thiamine transporter proteins.

If high ACh symptoms (nausea, etc.) are bearable, is it still harmfull to take it?