Need help to figure out why I react so badly to coffee

[mostlylurking]

Yeah I don't tolerate them at all now. My situation is so bad that I'm thriving on %1.

I didn't know they blocked thiamine. Unfortunately, 2 gr is too much to afford.

@redsun It doesn't look like copper is helping me anymore than it already did. Thiamine seems more effective but supplementing it doesn't seem to gain me much enough. Also, it's water soluble so I don't think I'm really repleting anything.
How could thiamine might be related to my fluoxetine usage? Thiamine gives me some real improvements regardless, so what should I do other than taking thiamine? Might there be something in my body that's depleting thiamine constantly?

Fluoxetine = Prozac. This increases serotonin by blocking the reuptake of it in the brain. Serotonin is NOT the "happy hormone". It causes inflammation. I think it would be helpful for you to learn about Ray Peat's ideas about serotonin and Prozac. Here is a link to a search engine for Ray Peat's articles: PeatSearch: a Ray Peat-specific search engine - Toxinless Use the search cell on the left. Search for Serotonin.

Start with this one: Serotonin, depression, and aggression - The problem of brain energy.

Here is a link to an article about thiamine that you may find helpful: Vitamin B1, anti-estrogenic, pro-DHT, anti-serotonin, pro-dopamine » MENELITE
also this one: Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover
and this: Vitamin B1 / Thiamine deficiency increases serotonin in the brain

Fluoxetine (aka Prozac) increases brain serotonin. Thiamine deficiency also increases brain serotonin. Supplementation with thiamine would help reduce the brain serotonin which may be why it makes you feel better.

I was prescribed Prozac years ago and took it for a couple of years. It made me feel horrible and I didn't actually sleep for the entire 2 years. I felt much better when I quit taking it. Serotonin is some bad stuff.

• Herb Doctors: Serotonin, Endotoxins, Stress show starts at about 3.5minutes in.
• Herb Doctors: Serotonin, Endotoxins, Stress TRANSCRIPTION

Please note that some people say that the serotonin in the gut doesn't get into the brain because the blood brain barrier keeps it out. But a thiamine deficiency causes the blood brain barrier to become compromised so in that case it would not keep additional serotonin out of the brain, along with a lot of other things that don't belong in there.

 

[Astolfo]

No it is helping you just can't feel it helping as much because of the massive amount of vitamin A you also have been getting from liver.

Makes sense. Last week I seldomly ate liver, so I will just eat a few more times before stopping. I'm still been eating chocolate cream daily (140 gr %7 cocoa and %7 hazelnut) and sometimes bitter chocolate.
This also made me remember that, 1 or 2 years ago I tried retinol palmitate for once and it made my bowel also worse.

@mostlylurking yeah, I read some of peats articles in the back. I really read so many thing actually when I was still able to. I actually meaned: How it started? Thiamine produces acetylcholine so there is definitely a connection. Might be related to excess free tryptophan levels in blood (IDO trap theory) because Tryptophan breaks down acetylcholine. Histidine is also takes part in acetylcholinesterase enzyme afaik. And there is cFos (regulating acetylcholine) that I mentioned on previous pages.
When I get sick (influenza) I feel cognitively superior. I thought this is from IDO induction but I'm not sure still.

Please note that some people say that the serotonin in the gut doesn't get into the brain because the blood brain barrier keeps it out. But a thiamine deficiency causes the blood brain barrier to become compromised so in that case it would not keep additional serotonin out of the brain, along with a lot of other things that don't belong in there.

Yes, iron for example

I looked up on antithiamine factors but couldn't find any mention that polyphenols antagonize thiamine "inside" the body. they only mention that it makes thiamine insoluble. But I remember reading that Tea reduces thyroid function through other mechanisms probably unrelated to thiamine. Though, I think this is most likely related to neurotransmitters because the effect comes so fast.


I'm currently taking 400-500 mg b1 total each day. I can increase that amount 2x by switching to thiamine 'mononitrate' form (there is one no-name brand selling it as food additive) but I'm still unsure how dangerous the nitrate part and I heard that it's not as absorbable as HCL.

 

[mostlylurking]

Makes sense. Last week I seldomly ate liver, so I will just eat a few more times before stopping. I'm still been eating chocolate cream daily (140 gr %7 cocoa and %7 hazelnut) and sometimes bitter chocolate.
This also made me remember that, 1 or 2 years ago I tried retinol palmitate for once and it made my bowel also worse.

@mostlylurking yeah, I read some of peats articles in the back. I really read so many thing actually when I was still able to. I actually meaned: How it started? Thiamine produces acetylcholine so there is definitely a connection. Might be related to excess free tryptophan levels in blood (IDO trap theory) because Tryptophan breaks down acetylcholine. Histidine is also takes part in acetylcholinesterase enzyme afaik. And there is cFos (regulating acetylcholine) that I mentioned on previous pages.
When I get sick (influenza) I feel cognitively superior. I thought this is from IDO induction but I'm not sure still.


Yes, iron for example

I looked up on antithiamine factors but couldn't find any mention that polyphenols antagonize thiamine "inside" the body. they only mention that it makes thiamine insoluble. But I remember reading that Tea reduces thyroid function through other mechanisms probably unrelated to thiamine. Though, I think this is most likely related to neurotransmitters because the effect comes so fast.


I'm currently taking 400-500 mg b1 total each day. I can increase that amount 2x by switching to thiamine 'mononitrate' form (there is one no-name brand selling it as food additive) but I'm still unsure how dangerous the nitrate part and I heard that it's not as absorbable as HCL.

I suspect you are suffering from high serotonin caused by the medication Fluoxetine (aka Prozac). This is extremely common because this medication is supposed to increase serotonin. Serotonin is a dangerous thing, not a helpful thing. Can you simply stop taking the Fluoxetine? Here is a video of Haidut talking about this substance:

View: https://youtu.be/xpkIelqVyCQ?t=4673


Here is another video that talks about getting off of this med:

View: https://youtu.be/Mz4YXd5u9A0?t=2215


You may be suffering from "Serotonin Syndrome": Serotonin Syndrome
"Fluoxetine and its metabolite norfluoxetine have longer half-lives (1 week and 2.5 weeks, respectively) than other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and can therefore precipitate this syndrome even if discontinued for up to 6 weeks before the patients begin taking another serotonergic agent. These drugs, along with irreversible monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs), can cause symptoms to persist for days to weeks even with treatment.1,2
Go to:

DIAGNOSIS​

Serotonin syndrome is a diagnosis of exclusion. No single diagnostic test can confirm this syndrome.2,4 The diagnostic gold standard for serotonin syndrome is diagnosis by a medical toxicologist.3 In a clinical setting, however, the suspicion of serotonin syndrome and diagnosis must occur rapidly so treatment can prevent the morbidity and mortality associated with this condition. Therefore, a diagnosis of serotonin syndrome is entirely clinical and is based on the history and physical examination along with history of the patient's use of a serotonergic drug."

Serotonin Syndrome symptoms:

You have talked about some of these symptoms, particularly the intestine symptoms. Serotonin causes contractions in the gut. Fluoxetine increases serotonin.

Thiamine affects acetylcholine via increasing acetyl-CoA. It's complicated and confusing.

Acetyl-CoA and acetylcholine metabolism in nerve terminal compartment of thiamine deficient rat brain - PubMed

The decrease of pyruvate and ketoglutarate dehydrogenase complex activities is the main cause of energy and acetyl-CoA deficits in thiamine deficiency-evoked cholinergic encephalopathies. However, disturbances in pathways of acetyl-CoA metabolism leading to appearance of cholinergic deficits...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

and this:

Mechanisms of Non-coenzyme Action of Thiamine: Protein Targets and Medical Significance - PubMed

Thiamine (vitamin B1) is a precursor of the well-known coenzyme of central metabolic pathways thiamine diphosphate (ThDP). Highly intense glucose oxidation in the brain requires ThDP-dependent enzymes, which determines the critical significance of thiamine for neuronal functions. However...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

also this: New Page Title Here
The point is that Peat believes that too much acetylcholine is a problem. The other linked articles above show that thiamine deficiency could be what is causing the problem with acetylcholine. These two ideas run together, they are not in conflict.

Taking thiamine cannot solve the problem of serotonin syndrome that is caused by taking the Fluoxetine. Both issues, thiamine deficiency AND the high serotonin need to be addressed. I think the Fluoxetine med is very dangerous.

Thiamine and niacinamide would be a much safer course of action that an SSRI to address depression and anxiety.

 

[Astolfo]

@mostlylurking I stopped taking fluoxetine in november 2018. I took it for only about a month.

 

[Astolfo]

Tea not only impairs my cognition/reduces metabolism/worsens motor functions but it also increases myoclonus/fasciculations.

 

[mostlylurking]

@mostlylurking I stopped taking fluoxetine in november 2018. I took it for only about a month.

Well that's good news! One less thing to worry about.

 

[Astolfo]

I think thiamine shows even more benefit. But how do I get it faster? Maybe acetylcholine sensitivity is what wastes my B1 since the whole time?

 

[Astolfo]

Looks like eggs are also impair my cognition greatly. I just have to completely avoid from any protein to not feel completely brain dead. What even is this?

 

[Astolfo]

@redsun I don't really think I have got much improvement. Lately I was eating little to no protein (eating chocolate instead of eggs in breakfast) so this is probably why I got temporarily better. Today ate just 4 eggs and I'm back to the baseline really. Worsened my "every" symptom. My stomach is grumbling while I feel extremely hungry.

Why I cannot eat any protein? What's the problem really? Copper didn't help

 

[InChristAlone]

@redsun I don't really think I have got much improvement. Lately I was eating little to no protein (eating chocolate instead of eggs in breakfast) so this is probably why I got temporarily better. Today ate just 4 eggs and I'm back to the baseline really. Worsened my "every" symptom. My stomach is grumbling while I feel extremely hungry.

Why I cannot eat any protein? What's the problem really? Copper didn't help

Maybe it is more simple than specific nutrients or brain neurotransmitters, maybe it's just as simple as eggs and certain proteins are very good at raising insulin and then you feel more hungry after. Peat has been saying this for decades. Eggs are insulinogenic and require a lot of carbs to balance.

 

[redsun]

@redsun I don't really think I have got much improvement. Lately I was eating little to no protein (eating chocolate instead of eggs in breakfast) so this is probably why I got temporarily better. Today ate just 4 eggs and I'm back to the baseline really. Worsened my "every" symptom. My stomach is grumbling while I feel extremely hungry.

Why I cannot eat any protein? What's the problem really? Copper didn't help

I expected this to happen since our B1 man came in and convinced you to take large doses of thiamine. I didnt say anything at the time because the only way you are going to learn is to experience it for yourself. Inevitably you would take it anyway whether I told you to or not. Massive B1 doses are not what you need and they really mess with your brain chemistry. Especially for someone like you who's brain chemistry is already heavily imbalanced. High dose B1 substantially raises acetylcholine synthesis and thus its activity. I have had a few PM me in the past with bad symptoms pointing to high acetylcholine and I later found out they were taking massive doses of B1. Sure enough, they stopped it and it was like nothing happened. You need to do the same and not take random things. I know copper will help you, and I am sure it has but we cannot see it because you are taking things you don't need and you shouldn't take. This is why eggs ****88 you and any significant source of choline can do the same. But don't eat eggs anyway for starters, but it is 10x worse when you take B1 which makes the choline in eggs a death sentence.

Do not take B1 or any B vitamins or anything at this point. Don't consume eggs. Eventually as the B1 leaves your system everything should improve again. High Ach is also very bad for brain function in its own way. It leads to low norepinephrine activity mainly, but also low dopamine and glutamate. All this in combination will still give you cognitive impairment and slow mental speed. You did the work by consuming plenty of liver for copper. Now you just need to wait it out because you took so much B1 and then we can see where you are at.

Eat normally, reach your daily needs for minerals like calcium, zinc, iron, copper and try to eat proteins if you can but you may need to wait until more of the excess B1 leaves your system because meat does have a decent amount of choline.

Do you have low muscle tone (hypotonia)? Also reduced strength?

 

[Astolfo]

Maybe it is more simple than specific nutrients or brain neurotransmitters, maybe it's just as simple as eggs and certain proteins are very good at raising insulin and then you feel more hungry after.

It's not like usual hunger. Just, my stomach excessively reacting to neurological signals and contracting even If I do not feel hungry enough for that. It gets better if I take BCAA and gets worse after anything thst worsens my symptoms (eating problematic foods, masturbation, coffee oil, tea, etc.)

@redsun I did not mean that actually. In fact, taking B1 only made me feel much different in a good way. It improved my cognition, motor abilities and even emotions maybe. I did not see any negative effects from B1 yet. And the problem with eggs are, I don't think related to the choline content. It was just because of that it is animal protein imo.

This week I have some exams and I have to go full vegan to not impair my cognition thorough the day.

Now you just need to wait it out because you took so much B1 and then we can see where you are at.

?

Do you have low muscle tone (hypotonia)? Also reduced strength?

Yes but B1 also helps with that. I feel more solid since I started taking it

 

[InChristAlone]

It's not like usual hunger. Just, my stomach excessively reacting to neurological signals and contracting even If I do not feel hungry enough for that. It gets better if I take BCAA and gets worse after anything thst worsens my symptoms (eating problematic foods, masturbation, coffee oil, tea, etc.)

@redsun I did not mean that actually. In fact, taking B1 only made me feel much different in a good way. It improved my cognition, motor abilities and even emotions maybe. I did not see any negative effects from B1 yet. And the problem with eggs are, I don't think related to the choline content. It was just because of that it is animal protein imo.

This week I have some exams and I have to go full vegan to not impair my cognition thorough the day.


?



Yes but B1 also helps with that. I feel more solid since I started taking it

What do you eat with the eggs?

 

[redsun]

It's not like usual hunger. Just, my stomach excessively reacting to neurological signals and contracting even If I do not feel hungry enough for that. It gets better if I take BCAA and gets worse after anything thst worsens my symptoms (eating problematic foods, masturbation, coffee oil, tea, etc.)

@redsun I did not mean that actually. In fact, taking B1 only made me feel much different in a good way. It improved my cognition, motor abilities and even emotions maybe. I did not see any negative effects from B1 yet. And the problem with eggs are, I don't think related to the choline content. It was just because of that it is animal protein imo.

This week I have some exams and I have to go full vegan to not impair my cognition thorough the day.


?



Yes but B1 also helps with that. I feel more solid since I started taking it

B1 can help in some ways because it may increase steroid hormone synthesis including cortisol which will reduce inflammation. But hypotonia is due to low norepinephrine activity which excess acetylcholine activity will exacerbate. Calcium and copper will improve muscle tone so you need to make sure calcium needs are covered as well. This is the other thing that more copper does since it is needed to make norepinephrine but it will never go away if norepinephrine activity is being opposed by high acetylcholine caused by B1. Choline containing foods like animal protein amplify this issue even more, especially eggs which are packed with it.

Again this is why I want you to avoid high dose B1 and get the small amounts needed from food. Your digestive system uses acetylcholine to contract and move stuff around. Higher acetycholine activity often leads to diarrhea and frequent bowel movements and other bowel related symptoms. Serotonin when high can also increase bowel movements, copper helps this. B1 does multiple things in the CNS this is why it can somewhat improve cognition but this is not your major issue and Ach excess reduces NE, DA, and glutamate activity in the brain. It does strongly improve memory and enhance memory retrieval so its not surprising it would be useful for exams where memory is vital but that's about it. At normal levels, Ach synergizes with the rest of the brain to enhance cognition overall, while in excess it inhibits other NTs, which limits energy levels and cognition but does strongly increase memory.

 

[Astolfo]

What do you eat with the eggs?

chocolate creme with bread usually.

@redsun stopping B1 and B complex right now.

Today evening I ate about 150 gr noodle from a cheap brand. I think I'm having a literal excitoxicity. It was containing MSG, maybe because of that plus acetylcholine? I'm lightheaded and cannot sleep. Cognition, motor symptoms and bowel reactivity went so much worse also. I feel like I smashed my head really hard

3 AM right now and I thought it's 9. I cannot stay asleep or cannot sleep at all, idk

My heart is also beating really strange. I think this is because monosodyum glutamate, Im having excittoxocitiy

 

[InChristAlone]

How many calories do you eat a day, might be good to just get a baseline of where you are at because I know how anxiety works we tend to focus on the bad symptoms not realizing that focusing on it can make it worse. Turning inward searching for the problem only amplifies everything you are experiencing. Just notice it and move forward. It could be as simple as not eating enough, starvation symptoms produce all kinds of effects.

 

[redsun]

chocolate creme with bread usually.

@redsun stopping B1 and B complex right now.

Today evening I ate about 150 gr noodle from a cheap brand. I think I'm having a literal excitoxicity. It was containing MSG, maybe because of that plus acetylcholine? I'm lightheaded and cannot sleep. Cognition, motor symptoms and bowel reactivity went so much worse also. I feel like I smashed my head really hard

3 AM right now and I thought it's 9. I cannot stay asleep or cannot sleep at all, idk

Yeh the MSG will do that for some depending on your own brain chemistry it really will give you bad insomnia. Ach itself promotes wakefulness, REM, and in excess will make it hard to fall asleep and stay asleep.

 

[Astolfo]

How many calories do you eat a day, might be good to just get a baseline of where you are at because I know how anxiety works we tend to focus on the bad symptoms not realizing that focusing on it can make it worse. Turning inward searching for the problem only amplifies everything you are experiencing. Just notice it and move forward. It could be as simple as not eating enough, starvation symptoms produce all kinds of effects.

No doubt I'm malnutritioned because I live in a 3rd world shithole with an economy equal or worse than the poorest balkan country. There is not much I can do about it. I can still afford to eat tons of potatoes or eggs or even some fruit but I hate the taste. I do not have appetite anymore honestly.

I do not think my diet has anything to do with this situation. I got diseased in november 2018 and aside from taking fluoxetine, nothing changed at that time. It just has nothing to do with food. Eating less actually helps. Ketogenic diet makes me feel better, waterfasting makes me feel better. I once not ate anything for 72 hours and it made my emotional numbness and cognitive impairment better. Even being hungry makes me feel better.

Yeh the MSG will do that for some depending on your own brain chemistry it really will give you bad insomnia. Ach itself promotes wakefulness, REM, and in excess will make it hard to fall asleep and stay asleep

I used to be insomniac but my dreams were extremely vivid back then. Now I'm hypersomniac and my dreams are too shallow.

I couldn't actually understand the explanation with B1. It does increase ACh excessively and increase cortisol and reduce inflammation, right. Those are making me feel better. But its long term effects are also good. My hypotonia did not get worse, but better. I took more than 50 capsules of 100 mg so far in the last 2-3 weeks and it only made me feel better as the time passed. My tolerance to cold increased substantially and my motor symptoms also got improved as well. So is it still a bad thing to take B1 if I'm seeing good long term effects? I upped my copper intake so the fact that it opposes noradrenaline should be a lesser problem in the future, am I wrong?

Also I wonder, is it dangerous to take B1 if I do not eat enough choline? Could it possibly deplete my choline to very low levels?

 

[Svdmeere]

Firstly, I have PSSD but not prefer to call it that way because my problems are more akin to CFS/progressive dementia.

Whenever I drink coffee, my dementia goes worse (vision, cognitive abilities), my bowel gets more reactive to inner stimuli, my chronic hunger problem gets worse, my motor coordination gets more impaired and my eustachian tube dysfunction becomes worse. My blood test results show highish basophils, lowish copper, highish zinc and low ceruloplasmin. It looks like I'm undermethylated but I have food allergies (I sneeze whenever I eat something) and I think my adrenaline is oversensitized (I think I have low adrenaline but sensitized receptors).

What does this look like? Excess acetylcholine? Low blood flow? high methylation or low methylation?

Indeed, it looks like are undermethylated a.k.a. histamine intolerance a.k.a. MCAS. I have exactly the same issues and lab results. Caffeine makes it a lot worse because it promotes histamine release and blocks DAO: Histamine & Caffeine Addiction | Healing Histamine

I have significantly reduced my symptoms by strictly following a low histamine (and low salicylate) diet, and taking a mast cell stabilizer (ketotifen 4mg/day). Also by limiting non-food triggers.

 

[aliml]

A Case of Caffeine Intolerance With Long-Term Use of Fluoxetine

The cytochrome P450 (CYP1) family of enzymes, also known as CYP450 enzymes, has been linked to drug metabolism. Previous literature has shown that CYP450 enzymes effect numerous drug-drug interactions. Here, we describe the case of a young woman who developed caffeine intolerance following long-term use of fluoxetine.

Case report. Ms A, an 18-year-old Southeast Asian woman, had been treated for depression (DSM-5 criteria) for over a year with fluoxetine. Her symptoms of depression included low mood with anxiety and crying spells, inability to relax, and worrying about minor things. She also reported a decline in her grades. She had no medical conditions or history of substance use. Her mother had a history of major depression and anxiety. Ms A’s symptoms had initially responded to fluoxetine, but she reported a worsening of symptoms a year after starting treatment. The dose of fluoxetine was increased to 40 mg/d, to which she responded.

Incidentally, she reported that about 8 months after starting fluoxetine, she could not drink coffee anymore. She would become extremely nervous, jittery, agitated with racing thoughts, and unable to sleep with very small amounts of coffee. This was unusual for her, as she loved coffee and was used to drinking a lot of coffee previously. It was concluded that she had symptoms of caffeine intoxication on drinking even small amounts of coffee and hence could not tolerate any amount of caffeine. This inability to tolerate coffee was seen when Ms A was rechallenged with coffee. It is also possible that some of the symptoms of anxiety the patient experienced and was treated for could have arisen from caffeine intolerance.

Caffeine is metabolized by CYP1A2. It is one of the most abundant CYP liver enzymes and is responsible for metabolism of several critically important medications. Certain medications, including antidepressants such as fluvoxamine and fluoxetine, antiarrhythmics (mexiletine), and bronchodilators such as theophylline, have been reported to be potent inhibitors of this isoenzyme. This activity might have important clinical implications, since medications that are metabolized by, or bind to, the same CYP enzyme have high potential for pharmacokinetic interactions due to inhibition of drug metabolism. Nicotine is also a CYP1A2 inducer, and use of medications like clozapine might necessitate dose adjustments in smokers. Pharmacokinetic interactions at the CYP1A2 enzyme level may cause toxic effects during concomitant administration of caffeine and certain drugs used for cardiovascular, CNS, gastrointestinal, infectious, respiratory, and skin disorders. Thus, patients who present with symptoms of increased caffeine intake and are taking medications that inhibit CYP1A2 enzymes should be advised to decrease their caffeine intake.

A Case of Caffeine Intolerance With Long-Term Use of Fluoxetine

Article AbstractBecause this piece does not have an abstract, we have provided for your benefit the first 3 sentences of the full text.To the Editor: Caffeine is the most widely consumed central nervous system (CNS) stimulant. At least 1 caffeinated beverage is consumed daily by 75%-98% of...

www.psychiatrist.com

CYP1A2 enzyme activity can be increased by liquorice and cruciferous vegetables.

CYP1A2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org