Need help for friend who was floxxed by cipro an antibiotic

TreasureVibe

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hey all, my friend is suffering from the after effects of multiple drugs including seroquel, klonopin, cipro (the antibiotic notorious for causing nerve damage and the like) and Lexapro. She has been drug free for 1 year and 4 months now and she suffers from physical anxiety and intense muscle rigidity in all of her body parts. She also at times suffers from weakness, being dysfunctional at her work and having to lay on the floor is all she can do.

what can she do?

I hope someone can help.

Thank you
 
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TreasureVibe

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JKX

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As someone who has experienced IV metronidazole and ciprofloxacin I'd suggest something like taking glycine in combination with pregnenolone or progesterone. The combo will be of massive help to her liver. Something to increase the nad/nadh ratio would also be good, methylene blue or inosine might be something to try.

Those things and keeping pufa low, at least 100g of protein a day.
 

TreasureVibe

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As someone who has experienced IV metronidazole and ciprofloxacin I'd suggest something like taking glycine in combination with pregnenolone or progesterone. The combo will be of massive help to her liver. Something to increase the nad/nadh ratio would also be good, methylene blue or inosine might be something to try.

Those things and keeping pufa low, at least 100g of protein a day.
Will this help her muscle rigidity though?
 

yerrag

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There was a recent video on Charlie's b1 thread that talked about people who are vitamin b1-deficient being susceptible to side effects from taking Cipro. My impression from that video is that it would take many months of b1 therapeutic supplementation in order to reverse the effects. He was talking of 600mg daily thiamine HCl supplementation, as I remenber, but other forms of thiamine at smaller doses may be considered as well.
 

mostlylurking

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hey all, my friend is suffering from the after effects of multiple drugs including seroquel, klonopin, cipro (the antibiotic notorious for causing nerve damage and the like) and Lexapro. She has been drug free for 1 year and 4 months now and she suffers from physical anxiety and intense muscle rigidity in all of her body parts. She also at times suffers from weakness, being dysfunctional at her work and having to lay on the floor is all she can do.

what can she do?

I hope someone can help.

Thank you
I got slammed from antibiotics I took last summer. I was hit pretty hard in October/November. I also fell and hurt my shoulder last September (=major stress). I realized that I had a thiamine problem about the first of November. I started taking more thiamine HCL (about 600mg/day, with magnesium glycinate) then. I have worked my way up to now taking 20mg/k of thiamine (=1500mg) and 2 grams of magnesium glycinate daily, along with a couple of B-complex pills. I've been on this high dose for about 3 days now and can definitely tell a huge difference. I'm also taking aspirin with some coffee for the caffeine once or twice a day. I plan to continue this high dose for several months; I hope to regain my thiamine function via this dose eventually.

Prior to November 1, I had been taking about 100mg of thiamine daily. But it wasn't enough to protect me from the Bactrim antibiotic. Evidently there are quite a few antibiotics that will block thiamine function. Here's an article: Bactrim: An Anti-Folate, Anti-Thiamine, Potassium Altering Drug - Hormones Matter also this one: Fluoroquinolone Antibiotics Associated with Nervous System Damage- Hormones Matter Please note that high dose thiamine is used for dysautonomia.

Back in early November I had an email exchange with Ray Peat about my troubles. He encouraged me to focus on my gut health to regain my ability to absorb my nutrients. I did that; ate well cooked mushrooms every day and was very careful about what I ate. I continued eating the Peaty diet that had saved me years earlier from serious illness that included rheumatoid arthritis. This includes a lot of 1% organic milk, with a little fructose and vanilla and hydrolized gelatin; about 1 quart of orange juice daily, liver once a week, shellfish once a week, carrot salad, cooked mushrooms; no PUFA, no nuts, no seeds, no grains, no starchy vegetables, no fibrous vegetables (except raw carrot and cooked mushrooms). Although my gut got better, I was getting worse (lactic acidosis, pain, stiffness, brain fog) so I researched thiamine and antibiotic use and found that I might benefit from high thiamine and magnesium.

High dose thiamine (with magnesium) might help your friend. Thiamine is crucial for the cells to make energy. If energy fails, you get all kinds of symptoms, including stiffness and pain. I realized that I had a thiamine problem when I took a single dose of about 300mg thiamine HCL and within 45 minutes my pain disappeared and my body temperature went up a degree (to 99 degrees). So glad I tried that little test, the results pointed the way.

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2011.0840 (NOTE: this study was done on people who had Crohn's or ulcerative colitis/compromised gut and I have a long history of compromised gut.)

Conclusions: The absence of blood thiamine deficiency and the efficacy of high-dose thiamine in our patients suggest that fatigue is the manifestation of a thiamine deficiency, likely due to a dysfunction of the active transport of thiamine inside the cells, or due to structural enzymatic abnormalities. The administration of large quantities of thiamine increases the concentration in the blood to levels in which the passive transport restores the normal glucose metabolism in all cells and leads to a complete regression of fatigue.

Patients weighing 60 kg responded to the therapy at doses of 600 mg/day. Proportionally, patients weighing 60+ kg responded to the therapy accordingly to higher doses (up to 1,500 mg/day for patients weighting 90 kg). In general, this is the rationale for the following dosage calibration used in this study.

Female patients:

Patients weighing <60 kg→10 mg/kg/day of thiamine

60–65 kg→14 mg/kg/day of thiamine

65–70 kg→17 mg/kg/day of thiamine

70–75 kg→20 mg/kg/day of thiamine

75–80 kg→23 mg/kg/day of thiamine

Collateral effects: one patient treated with 1,200 mg/day of thiamine showed a mild tachycardia that completely regressed by reducing the dose to 900 mg/day. If the thiamine doses administered are excessive for the patient's needs, this patient experiences tachycardia. High doses of thiamine (1,200–1,500 mg/day), if administered at night, may cause sleep difficulties. In order to reduce the incidents of this effect, the authors administered the last dose of thiamine before 5:00 pm.

In the presence of thiamine deficiency, the response to therapy is considered diagnostic.1

The normal concentrations of thiamine and TPP in the blood indicates that thiamine uptake by the small intestines is normal. The presence of the symptoms of mild thiamine deficiency in patients with normal concentrations of thiamine and TPP in the blood could be explained by a form of thiamine deficiency that's due to dysfunction of the vitamin B1 active transport mechanism from the blood to the mitochondria, or to structural enzymatic abnormalities.

The administration of large quantities of vitamin B1 oral increases the concentration in the blood to levels in which the passive transport restores the normal glucose metabolism.3 The glucose metabolism of all organs goes back to normal values and fatigue disappears.

All patients reported a complete regression of the symptoms correlated with fatigue. The majority of the patients also showed an improvement of the intestinal functionality, with a substantial reduction in the number of diarrhetic events. We deem necessary a lifelong use of high doses of thiamine in affected subjects.

This study highlighted that if thiamine doses administered are excessive for the patient's needs, the only collateral effects are mild tachycardia and insomnia. In this case, it is necessary to reduce the dosage in order to obtain the best results in terms of fatigue reduction without side effects.

In literature, there is no mention of thiamine-related collateral effects even at high doses and for long periods of time.3 Additionally, there is no study that has observed collateral effects linked to daily use of high doses (both orally or intramuscular) of thiamine comparable to those in our therapy. The diseases treated with high doses of vitamin B1, and for long periods of time, are Alzheimer's disease and thiamine responsive megaloblastic anemia (TRMA). The doses employed in TRMA are similar to ours and have been administered for several years. In Alzheimer's disease, doses equal to 3 to 8 grams per day were administered for one year without observing any collateral effect.6,7

Moreover, a dysfunction of intracellular thiamine transport was described for genetic diseases characterized by mutations in thiamine transporter genes.5,17

A number of inborn errors of metabolism have been described in which clinical improvements can be documented following administration of pharmacological doses of thiamine, such as thiamine-responsive megaloblastic anemia and Wernicke's-like encephalopaty.5,6,17 This study is not able to state whether the dysfunction of intracellular thiamine transport or enzymatic abnormalities are due to a genetic component or to an autoimmune inflammatory process.

Conclusion​

This small case series presents a simple remedy for what is a significant, complex problem of fatigue in IBD patients, and this latter fact, to the best of our knowledge, represents a complete novelty in the treatment of this symptom. Moreover, our team is convinced that the fatigue correlated with all autoimmune inflammatory diseases is a manifestation of an intracellular mild thiamine deficiency likely due to thiamine transporter deficiency or to enzymatic dysfunctions.

Thiamine and fatigue in inflammatory bowel diseases: an open-label pilot study - PubMed (same study as above)

also this: Case Report: High-dose thiamine improves the symptoms of fibromyalgia

this video might be helpful for you and your friend:
I also found this book to be helpful: Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High Calorie Malnutrition | ScienceDirect This link provides abstracts on each chapter that you may find helpful.

also this article here: Metronidazole: The New Mitochondrial Nightmare- Hormones Matter This one specifically addresses Cipro.
 
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Blossom

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I was floxed 21 years ago and the best help I’ve found is high dose thiamine. I currently take 600 mg of thiamine hcl and 50 mg allithiamine daily. I gradually worked my way up to this dosage. I also require a low oxalate diet from the antibiotics destroying certain gut bacteria that help handle oxalate. It may not be the same for your friend but it’s worth exploring if nothing else helps.
 

TreasureVibe

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We think her extreme muscle stiffness/rigidity is actually due to her past use of Klonopin. She CTed it for 3 or 4 weeks then reinstated and then tapered off. That was longer than a year ago. She ate Chipotle and had extreme muscle stiffness/rigidity. She's currently on the GARD diet which restricts glutamate. But she notices that food she was earlier on able to tolerate like Chipotle she now can't tolerate anymore since the diet.

Any advice would be very appreciated. Thank you.
 
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