Near-Infrared (NIR) Causing Testicle Damage ... Permanent??

[BigShoes]

Hello all,

I purchased a "Care Lamps" Derma Red Plus p300 LED red light device that emits 630 & 660nm red and 830 & 850nm near infrared in March 2021. I purchased this for use on the face and neck (thyroid), but also used it on the testes after seeing that red light may have positive effects on testosterone / virility (every guy wants to be a stud).

In the description, it states:

Irradiance
• 146 mW/cm2 at 6"
• 99 mW/cm2 at 12"
• 63 mW/cm2 at 18"
• 46 mW/cm2 at 24"
• 30 mW/cm2 at 30"
• 23 mW/cm2 at 36"

I cannot for the life of me remember how long I used it for. But I would guess I was 6 inches away, (146mW/cm^2 !!) for up to 10 minutes at a time, and may have done this semi-regularly for up to 6 months.

I stopped through a combination of laziness + not seeing much positive effect (in any area). I also recall seeing that near infrared could be damaging to the testicles - this was a warning to me not to do that - it didn't worry me too much at the time, but I just stopped straight away once I read about the possibility.

However, AT LEAST over the past 18 months, I have not had a very strong libido. I *can* get erections, but I am much less virile than I was say 3 years ago / through my 20s. I am now wondering if this near infrared light exposure (at a pretty strong dose of 850nm, if I understand correctly) may have done some real damage... and am also wondering if any damage to the testicles may have led to some of my other unpleasant symptoms that seemed to appear / worsen through 2021 (hair thinning on the crown, premature ejaculation etc. which I have spoken about in other threads).

For reference, this was the rat study where the damage was seen (it has been posted here before, I'm sure many of you have seen it):

https://www.alliedacademies.org/articles/the-effects-of-low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-on-the-testis-in-elevatingserum-testosterone-level-in-rats.pdf

The study says:

(1) "an 808-nm diode [laser was] irradiated to the testes at an intensity of 360 J/cm2 /day (200 mW × 30 min) for five days. This was followed by the measurement of the depth of tissue penetration, that of serum T level and histopathological examination. Our results showed that the rate of tissue penetration was significantly higher in the 808 nm wavelength group as compared with the 670 nm wavelength group (P<0.05)"

(2) It was at this level of intensity that the damage occurred. I'm sure many of you have seen this photo:

"In the 808 nm wavelength group, there were such findings as an atrophy of the seminiferous tubules, disarrangement of sertoli cells, generation of giant multinucleated bodies and other deformities. It is apparent that the adverse effects occurred but serum T level was not increased following a 5- day course of irradiation with an 808-nm wavelength at n intensity of 360 J/cm2 /day."

Now, I am not a physicist. I don't know much about light-waves, energy mW / Joules etc, or laser vs. LED. But is converting mW/cm^2 to J/cm^2 done via the following method?:

146 mW/cm^2 * 600 seconds (10 minutes) = 84,000 mJ/cm^2 = 84 J/cm^2 - yes, this is not as high as the 360 J/cm^2 in the study, but still pretty high, no??

Again, I have no idea about light-waves, their intensities, their concentrations etc. and how to translate / convert energy etc. etc. but I'm very concerned that this may have caused serious damage. The worst part is that the study doesn't seem to talk about whether the damage was permanent, or if it was just a temporary thing i.e. "yes, it may have killed some sperm / caused some over-heating, but there is unlikely to be any long-term issue"... very confused, and pretty worried.

Questions:

(1) Might I have caused permanent damage? Would answers be able to cite specific studies / tests that are out there?
(2) Have I converted the mW / J etc. correctly? Is the laser vs. LED a factor in damage - i.e. is it possible that the damage was only seen due to it being a concentrated laser? Why or why not?
(3) Might my current lower libido / lower energy / lower erection quality be a result of this? Or am I just clutching at straws / seeing correlations and the problem is actually much deeper...
(4) How would I even test for optimal / appropriate testicle function? Testosterone Blood Test? Semen Analysis / Fertility Test? Definitely no chance of a biopsy like the above...

Additional Info:
- I had my testosterone measured in October 2021 at c. 650-700ng/dL - this was after I had been using the NIR light for a good six months. In fact, I may have even stopped using it by this point. I have also just had a blood test to re-check this as at today, I suspect it will be worse because I feel terrible these days... I will update soon.
- I had a fertility test in 2019 strictly out of curiosity - all was functioning well. Not sure if I should get another one to test any damage...

Thanks in advance for any advice and insight.

Best regards.

 

[Nomane Euger]

@BigShoes hi,just an anecdote,i sit/lie down under the sun most of the year,at least 4 hours a day,including from midday to 2PM,naked including testicles,and i have 0 problems in terms of erection and sexual desire,i do have desire and erections frequency fluctuations,depending on foods,sleep,warmth,yet the sun exposure isnt a limiting factor in the degree of desire and erection strengh/frequency i can reach

i wish you fun

 

[PopSocket]

Would love to know more.

I would imagine many people shine light on their testicles due to the T increase and have not read about anyone suffering serious issues.

I have not studied this myself though.

My gut feel tells me IR might not be good for the balls especially long duration treatment due to heat. I always turn the IR off and keep the red light on and use it for no more than 3-4mins at a time and maybe couple times a day. Sometimes I skip a day or two on purpose. Also I cool the boys before and after treatment with cold water under the shower for 5-10 seconds. Seems I have no issues and only positives. For now. But I am extra paranoid with this stuff. Maybe I noticed I finish a bit more quickly but this can be due to more T and more desire,pleasure.

Truly hope you have not done any damage and the issue is coming from something easily fixable.

 

[Cooper]

Get a testicle ultrasound first and talk to your doctor.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I doubt any damage was done, that is permanent and can’t be fixed.

I am starting to see a lot of healing with PEMF, using the micro-pulse.com devices. They induce a tiny electric current that seems to be very good at healing and works on the genitals very well too.

 

[HighT]

670nm only is to be used there.

 

[BigShoes]

Thanks for input so far. Does anyone specifically have any info. around the following questions:

(1) Might I have caused permanent damage? Would answers be able to cite specific studies / tests that are out there? @ecstatichamster what makes you think there is unlikely to be lasting damage?

(2) Have I converted the mW / J etc. correctly? Is the laser vs. LED a factor in damage - i.e. is it possible that the damage was only seen due to it being a concentrated laser? Why or why not? UPDATE: lots of people say the 360 J/cm^2 was a ridiculously high dose. But I have calculated 84 J/cm^2 in 10 minutes with a regular "Joov" type of panel - very easy to over-do this with easily available market products.

(3) Might my current lower libido / lower energy / lower erection quality be a result of this? Or am I just clutching at straws / seeing correlations and the problem is actually much deeper...

(4) How would I even test for optimal / appropriate testicle function? Testosterone Blood Test? Semen Analysis / Fertility Test? Definitely no chance of a biopsy like the above... @Cooper would an ultrasound really tell you very much? It's just a picture, not an analysis of cells.


I guess a PSA: do NOT use near infrared light on the testicles, for any length of time, at any frequency. Just not worth it.

Pretty terrified of lasting damage. As mentioned, I am having a blood test taken and should have results very soon - will update here (not expecting testosterone to be super high, as I feel pretty terrible at the moment - but it was last measured at 650 AFTER using the near infrared down there). I am also having a semen analysis test done next week (which I have had done before with no issues) and will update here. I am still not sure that a successful result in both of these tests will be enough to know if long term damage was done......

 

[PopSocket]

@BigShoes Waiting for the results.

I guess reading about testicular damage from other causes would help when it comes to what blood markers to focus on in order to figure out if there is a damage or not.

Not just T. FSH and LH might be a good idea. This is just the first I found for damage from Chemo, it took them 34 months to recover, so no permanent damage:

Testicular damage due to cytotoxic drugs and recovery after cessation of therapy - PubMed

Rarely the body cannot recover, might take a bit longer though. Fingers crossed everything is alright and the libido/energy/erection issue is not caused by damage to the testicles.

A doctor might be helpful here to figure what is the cause. Another point of input is not a bad thing.

 

[BigShoes]

Thanks @PopSocket - you're an awesome guy. And thanks everyone else for the input.

Some updates for anyone interested. I have been speaking with the manufacturer - they stated (as noted in this interesting article: Budget Intensity Measurements for Red Light Therapy Part 1 of 3: Tenmars TM-206) that the Tenmars TM206 meter used to measure their initial irradiance values was a solar power meter, and was likely to be over-stating the true mW/cm^2 - i.e. the 146 mW/cm^2 quoted in the OP was likely not the true value.

Moreover, this 146 value was the whole panel INCLUDING both the Red and NIR.

The manufacturer was just in the process of updating their irradiance figures with a Hopoo OHSP-350SF , which is apparently a far more accurate and appropriate meter for measuring LED irradiance.

After some smooth-talking on my part, I managed to get measurements of irradiance for both the Red&NIR together, as well as the NIR on its own (the latter being the most important for this issue). The figures are below:

Overall:

P300 PLUS

• 80 mW/cm2 at 6"

• 57 mW/cm2 at 12"

• 39 mW/cm2 at 18"

• 28 mW/cm2 at 24"

*Readings taken from a Hopoo OHSP-350SF

NIR Only:

P300 PLUS

• 48 mW/cm2 at 3"

• 45 mW/cm2 at 6"

*Readings taken from a Hopoo OHSP-350SF

The caveat around the 3 inch reading (which I specifically asked for... any guesses why? Ha!) is that the sensor is so close that it might not properly capture the overlap, so the reading could be higher depending on how / where the meter is held in relation to the panel.

These numbers themselves are more encouraging. Some quick calculations based on these:

NIR Only:

Distance	Irradiance (mW/cm^2)	Seconds Exposure	mJ/cm^2	J/cm^2
3 Inches	48	600	28800	28.8
6 Inches	45	600	27000	27
3 Inches	48	900	43200	43.2
6 Inches	45	900	40500	40.5

That means that a 15 minute exposure at 3 inches (very close) appears to give 43 J/cm^2 - this is obviously significantly lower than the 360J/cm^2 in the study with the picture, which is encouraging.

However, there was a study conducted by Taha et al (that is talked about on page 4 of my study link in the OP where: "Taha MF et al. showed similar histopathological findings [15]. According to these authors, on histopathological examination of the testis irradiated with an 830-nm wavelength at lower doses (28.05 J/cm2 ), there were normal appearances of the seminiferous epithelium and interstitial tissue. These authors also noted, however, that the seminiferous epithelium and interstitial tissue were irregularly arranged following the irradiation with an 830-nm wavelength at higher doses (46.8 J/cm2 )."

So the rats testes were NOT damaged at 28.05 J/cm^2 doses , but WERE damaged (irregularly arranged cells) at 46.8 J/cm^2).

As shown in my table above, 10 minutes exposure seems to be the "safe" dose estimate based on the Taha study (<30J) with 830nm, but 15 minutes exposure may lead to damages (>40J). Quotes from their study:

"Results: The number of germ cells specially the pachytene spermatocytes and elongated spermatids increased after 28.05 J/cm(2) laser radiation. Ultrastructural features of germ and Sertoli cells in this group were similar to that of control; while laser irradiation at 46.80 J/cm(2) had a destructive effect on the seminiferous epithelium such as dissociation of immature spermatids and evident ultrastructural changes in them.

Conclusions: The findings confirmed the existence of a biostimulatory threshold of applied laser energy and the importance of determining it for clinical applications. Moreover, it was revealed that low doses of laser light have a biostimulatory effect on the spermatogenesis and may provide benefits to the patients with oligospermia and azoospermia."

Now, what effects the use of Laser vs LED has, I do not know... I don't really know anything about light, I am not a physicist. Is it purely the J/cm^2 number that matters, or do we also have to factor in that the LEDs disperse light more, and the lasers are more direct and targeted? I do not know if this matters... unfortunately, I would have thought that the J/cm^2 is the important value.

Will keep people posted RE: further testing. Any further advice / opinions would be welcomed.

PSA again: do not use NIR on your testes - not worth it. (I might add this to my signature).

 

[cremes]

I guess a PSA: do NOT use near infrared light on the testicles, for any length of time, at any frequency. Just not worth it.

This should go into the forum FAQ. I can't believe the number of threads and posts about someone shining or rubbing something on their genitals here. I haven't seen any posts where it works out well.

 

[BigShoes]

This should go into the forum FAQ. I can't believe the number of threads and posts about someone shining or rubbing something on their genitals here. I haven't seen any posts where it works out well.

Whilst I agree with you there about it possibly going in the forum FAQ, I don't think it's too surprising that a lot of people are trying this stuff:

(1) people are unwell, and desperate to find a path to wellness again. They are willing to try almost anything.

(2) mainstream medicine has time and time again proven to be incompetent, uncaring, or actively / deliberately harmful.

(3) People are therefore looking for other solutions to resolve their problems, which have no end in sight in their current paradigm / way of living - something needs to change. So it becomes a: "what have I got to lose?" / "these guys say it worked for them, so why not give it a try?" type of response...

Yes, this can be dangerous. Yes, many outsiders would look on the person as stupid (as many will probably look down on me as stupid given the details in my OP). but it is certainly understandable. We are all doing the best we can to weigh up the evidence of what's in front of us, and acting from there. Sometimes the implications are graver than we realize.

 

[cremes]

Yes, this can be dangerous. Yes, many outsiders would look on the person as stupid (as many will probably look down on me as stupid given the details in my OP). but it is certainly understandable. We are all doing the best we can to weigh up the evidence of what's in front of us, and acting from there. Sometimes the implications are graver than we realize.

Yes, I'm sure some of this is driven by desperation so I agree with that. Where you and I likely part is when, time after time, someone thinks putting light or a supplement directly on their genitals is a good idea. Eat the pill. Rub the oil on your wrist, neck, belly, etc.

At some point it became clear to me that people want to rub their genitals and the latest cream, oil, etc gives them a reason.

 

[BigShoes]

Yes, I'm sure some of this is driven by desperation so I agree with that. Where you and I likely part is when, time after time, someone thinks putting light or a supplement directly on their genitals is a good idea. Eat the pill. Rub the oil on your wrist, neck, belly, etc.

At some point it became clear to me that people want to rub their genitals and the latest cream, oil, etc gives them a reason.

When study after study shows that "Vitamin D and K on the testicles greatly increases testosterone", with no obvious reported side effects, it wouldn't be surprising if a man decided to try this. Similarly with me, I saw numerous studies showing Red Light AND Near Infrared Light's benefits on multiple tissues in the body: face and wrinkles, thyroid, wound healing, bone repair, and even a number of studies indicating increases in testosterone when the genitals were exposed to it. If one does not see any reported side effects or problems in their reading, and a whole "community" of people doing the same thing, it is easy to lose all context and give it a try. Particularly when I have a large panel that covers much of the torso anyway.

But yes, I take your point - definitely very wise, thanks @cremes (great name by the way).

I won't respond to this further - not out of malice, I just don't want to hijack my own thread with a semantics / judgement discussion.

I had some specific questions in my OP and follow up that I would like to stick to. If people cannot answer, then that is fine too - obviously, it's very hard to give specific guidance / recommendations, but I know a lot of people here have experimented with it too and wondered if they could help.

I will add my own updates to the thread regarding my own testing - blood panels, fertility, sperm DNA fragmentation (if advised by the doc - it's only 400 bucks here so I may just do it out of curiosity), and possibly an ultrasound as @Cooper suggested - some may see this as overkill, but it's nice to have peace of mind.

 

[PopSocket]

Any update on the situation ?

 

[BigShoes]

Any update on the situation ?

Hey man, thanks very much for the concern.

I got some blood work done (posted a thread about it here: Can anyone help me with my scary / puzzling / crazy blood results?). It turns out that I have very high thyroid autoimmunity (TPO and Thyroglobulin were both extremely high). I could not get Reverse T3 measured, but TSH was also slightly elevated. This strongly suggests impaired thyroid function / metabolism.

I basically spent one month weighing the pros and cons of starting thyroid therapy, and have decided to commence (c. 10mcg T3 and 20mcg T4) - I literally started yesterday.

To reiterate here, my main (obvious) symptoms are:
- Tired all the time / general malaise (positive thoughts, not depressed - but just exhausted all the time mentally and physically. Every day, I feel like I ran a half marathon the day before, despite walking a maximum of 7500 steps at a steady pace).
- accelerated hair fall - not bald yet, but need to do something quick.
- puffy eyes, exhausted appearance.
- poor sexual performance - testosterone was measured at 666 (of all numbers) which is okay, but prolactin was too high...

My plan is to continue thyroid therapy for a couple of months to *hopefully* regain some normalcy in the sexual function department - and only then will I go to a fertility clinic to assess the issues mentioned previously in this thread. I did not want to have fertility measured in my current state, only to be told that function was low, and thus further compounding the stresses and worries on my mind at the moment with all the symptoms. My plan is:
(1) Continue thyroid therapy for c. 2 months, hopefully normalcy will be somewhat restored by then.
(2) Simple fertility test
(3) Testicle ultrasound and / or sperm DNA fragmentation - sounds like ridiculous overkill but (i) I can do it quite cheaply here, and (ii) in the interest of science / any other bros appearing with similar fears, and (iii) full peace of mind (or not... depending on the result).