NDT Causing Increased Heart Rate, but Not Helping Temps Throughout the Day--What's Going on?

[Vileplume]

Using LifeGivingStore NDT, began on 1/2 grain a day for a week and noticed no change.

So I bumped it up to 1 full grain a day (taken half in the AM, half at night) and noticed the following:

-Sleeping heart rate rose from ~53 to ~63, but my sedentary daytime heart rate now gets very high (~100 bpm average, sitting).
-Waking temperature did increase (97.5->98.0), but my mood and daytime temps did not increase (temperature often dips into the 97's during the day).

Did not notice any other changes -- no changes in mood or anything else. All my hypo symptoms (poor memory, scattered thinking, slow digestion, lack of energy) remain. I make sure to eat plenty of calories with a Peaty diet (milk, plenty of fruit, some meat, eggs, liver, carrot/mushroom, gelatin), supplementing magnesium and vitamin D, and according to Cronometer I'm hitting all my main nutrient requirements.

What could be causing an increase in pulse, and an increase in waking temps, but a decrease in temps throughout the day? Should I lower the dose?

 

[FitnessMike]

might be low cortisol, I'm about to start supplementing cortisone acetate next week as i don't tolerate thyroid too, i only take roughly 1/6th of the grain, if take more it cumulates in the blood unused I believe, proven with a blood test.

 

[jb116]

Instead of supplementing directly with cortisone, use higher doses of pregnenolone. I think something like 175 mg or so should also support cortisol production where needed, along with other supportive hormones..

 

[FitnessMike]

Instead of supplementing directly with cortisone, use higher doses of pregnenolone. I think something like 175 mg or so should also support cortisol production where needed, along with other supportive hormones..

have you done this succesfully?

 

[jb116]

have you done this succesfully?

Hi again, I'll answer here to you as well. Yes I think once you are starting thyroid, pregnenolone and magnesium especially are useful and stabilizing to utilizing the thyroid efficiently. I never experienced insomnia from pregnenolone at any dose however, I recommend using the pregnenolone in the morning if your sleep is easily disturbed.

 

[mostlylurking]

Using LifeGivingStore NDT, began on 1/2 grain a day for a week and noticed no change.

So I bumped it up to 1 full grain a day (taken half in the AM, half at night) and noticed the following:

-Sleeping heart rate rose from ~53 to ~63, but my sedentary daytime heart rate now gets very high (~100 bpm average, sitting).
-Waking temperature did increase (97.5->98.0), but my mood and daytime temps did not increase (temperature often dips into the 97's during the day).

Did not notice any other changes -- no changes in mood or anything else. All my hypo symptoms (poor memory, scattered thinking, slow digestion, lack of energy) remain. I make sure to eat plenty of calories with a Peaty diet (milk, plenty of fruit, some meat, eggs, liver, carrot/mushroom, gelatin), supplementing magnesium and vitamin D, and according to Cronometer I'm hitting all my main nutrient requirements.

What could be causing an increase in pulse, and an increase in waking temps, but a decrease in temps throughout the day? Should I lower the dose?

Possible thiamine deficiency? An easy test is to try taking a dose and see if things improve. The fluctuating pulse rate and the low daytime temps sound like a thiamine issue.
a video about thiamine:


another one:

 

[docall18]

Ray Peat has said that the principal constraint on metabolism comes from pufa.

I would try small doses of niacinamide, coconut oil & vit E with the ndt, to see if that raises your temps.

 

[BearWithMe]

This is obvious stress reaction. Your body can't handle the increased metabolic rate, so it raises adrenaline and cortisol to catabolise your body tissue in desperate attempt to get more energy, and decrease your body temperature to conserve energy.

You need to significantly decrease the dose of NDT, eat more calories, or preferably both.

Supplementing cortisone is seriously the dumbest thing you can do in this situation (or any situation for that matter). Supplementing niacinamide is also very bad idea since niacinamide boosts metabolic rate too. Pregnenolone raises both metabolic rate and cortisol levels = even more stress and catabolism.

This topic is a good reminder why you should not take advice from random people on the internet

 

[Vileplume]

might be low cortisol, I'm about to start supplementing cortisone acetate next week as i don't tolerate thyroid too, i only take roughly 1/6th of the grain, if take more it cumulates in the blood unused I believe, proven with a blood test.

Thanks for the reply. It does seem like a stronger stress reaction with a higher dose, but wouldn’t the high heart rate and feelings of stress indicate high cortisol rather than low? How would more cortisol help?

Instead of supplementing directly with cortisone, use higher doses of pregnenolone. I think something like 175 mg or so should also support cortisol production where needed, along with other supportive hormones..

Thanks. So if I’m feeling higher degrees of subjective mental stress during this experience with more NDT, also indicated by higher HR, would pregnenolone play a calming role? I’m nervous of pushing the system too far, as JanP mentioned. Do you think preg might make this worse?

Possible thiamine deficiency? An easy test is to try taking a dose and see if things improve. The fluctuating pulse rate and the low daytime temps sound like a thiamine issue.
a video about thiamine:


another one:

Thank you. I do think thiamine would help. I have thiamine HCL back at home (on vacation now) so when I get back I’ll try it. Thanks also for posting those videos. I have not yet had the chance to watch them, but I will. What do you recommend for a daily dose of thiamine, safe to continue indefinitely?

Ray Peat has said that the principal constraint on metabolism comes from pufa.

I would try small doses of niacinamide, coconut oil & vit E with the ndt, to see if that raises your temps.

Thanks. I definitely do my best to cut pufa, but that seems like a long term strategy. I want to feel better now haha. Not sure if that’s possible, I know I just need to be patient. I have some niacinamide powder from bulksupplements. Do you think it might risk pushing my metabolism too far, like JanP mentioned?

This is obvious stress reaction. Your body can't handle the increased metabolic rate, so it raises adrenaline and cortisol to catabolise your body tissue in desperate attempt to get more energy, and decrease your body temperature to conserve energy.

You need to significantly decrease the dose of NDT, eat more calories, or preferably both.

Supplementing cortisone is seriously the dumbest thing you can do in this situation (or any situation for that matter). Supplementing niacinamide is also very bad idea since niacinamide boosts metabolic rate too. Pregnenolone raises both metabolic rate and cortisol levels = even more stress and catabolism.

This topic is a good reminder why you should not take advice from random people on the internet

thanks for the reply and information. I already eat over 4000 calories a day, so I’m not sure increasing them would do much right now. Perhaps I just need more time on the 1/2 grain, to let the thyroxine build up fully before trying to move on to a higher dose.

 

[FitnessMike]

This is obvious stress reaction. Your body can't handle the increased metabolic rate, so it raises adrenaline and cortisol to catabolise your body tissue in desperate attempt to get more energy, and decrease your body temperature to conserve energy.

You need to significantly decrease the dose of NDT, eat more calories, or preferably both.

Supplementing cortisone is seriously the dumbest thing you can do in this situation (or any situation for that matter). Supplementing niacinamide is also very bad idea since niacinamide boosts metabolic rate too. Pregnenolone raises both metabolic rate and cortisol levels = even more stress and catabolism.

This topic is a good reminder why you should not take advice from random people on the internet

what would you do if you would not tolerate thyroid despite high enough calories/nutrients ?

 

[BearWithMe]

what would you do if you would not tolerate thyroid despite high enough calories/nutrients ?

Wouldn't use thyroid.

 

[FitnessMike]

Thanks for the reply. It does seem like a stronger stress reaction with a higher dose, but wouldn’t the high heart rate and feelings of stress indicate high cortisol rather than low? How would more cortisol help?




Thanks. So if I’m feeling higher degrees of subjective mental stress during this experience with more NDT, also indicated by higher HR, would pregnenolone play a calming role? I’m nervous of pushing the system too far, as JanP mentioned. Do you think preg might make this worse?


Thank you. I do think thiamine would help. I have thiamine HCL back at home (on vacation now) so when I get back I’ll try it. Thanks also for posting those videos. I have not yet had the chance to watch them, but I will. What do you recommend for a daily dose of thiamine, safe to continue indefinitely?




Thanks. I definitely do my best to cut pufa, but that seems like a long term strategy. I want to feel better now haha. Not sure if that’s possible, I know I just need to be patient. I have some niacinamide powder from bulksupplements. Do you think it might risk pushing my metabolism too far, like JanP mentioned?

thanks for the reply and information. I already eat over 4000 calories a day, so I’m not sure increasing them would do much right now. Perhaps I just need more time on the 1/2 grain, to let the thyroxine build up fully before trying to move on to a higher dose.

I recommend to look at the book that was recommended to me "Your Thyroid and How to Keep it Healthy" by dr peatfield, he has been treating patients with low cortisol before thyroid for few weeks, that was either adrenal cortex-which has some of the cortisol hormones in it i believe, with pregnenolone and if these fail with hydrocortisone. I tried to only take "adrenal support" for few weeks with no thyroid but my insomnia got so much worse if i don't take even a fraction of the thyroid supplement, so i take now 1/6th of the grain NDT and these only amounts i can tolerate, i will still confirm this with blood result as i should get it anytime now. I am supplementing with pregnenolone now and you can tell it does improve to some extent, but i can't see that it will help me with tolerating let's say one grain of NDT.

have look at these:

Adrenal Support – from The Great Thyroid Scandal | TPAUK

www.tpauk.com

A Patient’s Experience Using Nutri Adrenal Extra, Isocort and Cortisol | TPAUK

www.tpauk.com

Adrenal Problems: Replacement Cortisone Therapy | TPAUK

www.tpauk.com

"The question is often asked. Will the cortisone replacement suppress my adrenals?

The answer is that in physiological dose it does not at all; and in any event, the adrenal activity is curtailed anyway, making the options quite clear. Suppression occurs in the super-pharmacological doses, which do not concern us in this context. Even then, the adrenals are able to recover, if the primary illness is dealt with, and the dose reduced gradually."

In the first link dr peatfield talk also about suppression.

I wish we could get all peoples who actually didn't tolerate thyroid at all due to low cortisol and give us their experience.

​

 

[FitnessMike]

Wouldn't use thyroid.

you would just stop it for awhile? were you even in the position where you could not tolerate thyroid nut you needed it?

 

[AdoTintor]

It takes 2 months or something to raise the level of T4 to reflect the dose being taken. The temptation is to rush and increase dosage rather than wait. This leads to overshooting the optimal dose, and the excess gets turned into rT3. And so then one increases the dosage further and it all goes ***s up. Broda Barnes had a strict go-slow policy, increasing every 2 months, so that he didn't miss the patient's optimal level.

 

[hei]

Wouldn't use thyroid.

So you just accept that your body has given up and have low energy forever?

 

[BearWithMe]

So you just accept that your body has given up and have low energy forever?

I would try to find the real underlying cause of the issue. The fact that you have low energy and are not tolerating NDT at the same time is a good hint that something else might be wrong.

It's not like you can either be low energy forever or use NDT, there are many other options.

But yes, having low energy is lesser evil than increasing your energy by the means of stress hormones. So if I had to choose either one, I would choose having low energy.

 

[FitnessMike]

I would try to find the real underlying cause of the issue. The fact that you have low energy and are not tolerating NDT at the same time is a good hint that something else might be wrong.

It's not like you can either be low energy forever or use NDT, there are many other options.

But yes, having low energy is lesser evil than increasing your energy by the means of stress hormones. So if I had to choose either one, I would choose having low energy.

what if the real underlying cause of low cortisol and not being able to tolerate thyroid is unaddressed hypothyroidism for let's say few years, and now you have to somehow raise cortisol to the optimal level to be able to succesfully support thyroid supplementation?

chronic stress->>>>lead to high cortisol (initially) and low thyroid->>>> then leads to low cortisol and low thyroid with time if hypothyroidism wasn't addressed quick enough, this is what happened in my case i truly believe

 

[BearWithMe]

what if the real underlying cause of low cortisol and not being able to tolerate thyroid is unaddressed hypothyroidism for let's say few years, and now you have to somehow raise cortisol to the optimal level to be able to succesfully support thyroid supplementation?

chronic stress->>>>lead to high cortisol (initially) and low thyroid->>>> then leads to low cortisol and low thyroid with time if hypothyroidism wasn't addressed quick enough, this is what happened in my case i truly believe

If the body lowers it's temperature as a direct reaction to thyroid supplementation, it is extremely unlikely that your problem is low cortisol.

I'm well aware of this "adrenal fatigue" theory, but I have yet to see any real evidence this actually exists. If you do have some, please post it.

If you would have an actual cortisol deficiency (e.g. Addison disease), you would know.

 

[FitnessMike]

If the body lowers it's temperature as a direct reaction to thyroid supplementation, it is extremely unlikely that your problem is low cortisol.

I'm well aware of this "adrenal fatigue" theory, but I have yet to see any real evidence this actually exists. If you do have some, please post it.

If you would have an actual cortisol deficiency (e.g. Addison disease), you would know.

i never said it lowers my temperature, all I'm saying that i cant tolerate thyroid, it accumulates in the blood, and seems that my body don't cant use it.,well there are few books that talk about the correlation of the thyroid and cortisol. Now I'm trying to find out that maybe high reverse t3 could be problem? i never tested for rt3 though

 

[BearWithMe]

i never said it lowers my temperature, all I'm saying that i cant tolerate thyroid, it accumulates in the blood, and seems that my body don't cant use it.,well there are few books that talk about the correlation of the thyroid and cortisol. Now I'm trying to find out that maybe high reverse t3 could be problem? i never tested for rt3 though

OP said it does, and you gave him advice to take synthetic cortisone.

Well there are books that in all seriousness claims alien abduction is real, or that calcium is toxic and you should avoid it at all costs.

Are those books about adrenal fatigue based on sound science?