"Natural" Gut Flora May Cause Multiple Sclerosis (MS) and Lupus

haidut

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I must have gotten over 500 emails over the last year angrily reproaching me for talking negatively on the Danny Roddy shows about the "beneficial" gut flora in humans. I even got a few angry phone calls from actual MD professionals saying that the "science" behind beneficial effects of the lactobacillus strain is rock-solid and the connection between that gut flora and "autoimmune" conditions like MS and lupus is "ludicrous". Well, the results of this study are anything but funny, especially considering the fact that the animals with sterile guts in the study were fully protected from developing MS.

Natural intestinal flora involved in the emergence of multiple sclerosis

"...Multiple sclerosis is caused by a combination of genetic and environmental factors. For a long time, pathogens were believed to be such external influences. According to scientists from the Max Planck Institute of Neurobiology in Martinsried, however, it is apparently not harmful bacteria that trigger multiple sclerosis, but beneficial ones – specifically, the natural intestinal flora, which every human being needs for digestion. The researchers discovered that genetically modified mice develop an inflammation in the brain similar to the human disease if they have normal bacterial intestinal flora. The microorganisms begin by activating the immune system’s T cells and, in a further step, the B immune cells. The findings suggest that in humans with the corresponding genetic predisposition, the essentially beneficial intestinal flora could act as a trigger for the development of multiple sclerosis."

"...The human intestine is a paradise for microorganisms: it is home to roughly 100 billion bacteria made up from 2,000 different bacterial species. The microorganisms of the intestine are not only indispensable for digestion, but also for the intestine's development. Altogether, this diverse community comprises between ten and one hundred times more genes than the entire human genome. Scientists therefore frequently refer to it as the “extended self”. However, the intestinal bacteria can also play a role in diseases in which the immune system attacks the body itself. Intestinal bacteria can thus promote autoimmune disorders such as Crohn’s disease and rheumatoid arthritis."

"...On the one hand, the likelihood of developing multiple sclerosis, a disease in which proteins on the surface of the myelin layer in the brain activate the immune system, is influenced by genes. On the other, however, environmental factors have an even greater impact on the disease’s development. Scientists have long suspected that it is caused by infectious agents. The Max Planck researchers now assume that multiple sclerosis is triggered by the natural intestinal flora."

"...This astonishing finding was made possible by newly developed genetically modified mice. In the absence of exposure to any external influences, inflammatory reactions arise in the brains of these animals which are similar to those associated with multiple sclerosis in humans – however, this only occurs when the mice have intact intestinal flora. Mice without microorganisms in their intestines and held in a sterile environment remained healthy. When the scientists “vaccinated” the animals raised in sterile conditions with normal intestinal microorganisms, they also became ill."

In another study from the same research institution, the authors found that gut flora depends entirely on lifestyle, and that bacteria viewed as "pathogenic" in the Western world can be beneficial in other parts of the world and vice-versa. These two studies should give a pause to anybody who gets told by their health care professional to ingest "good bacteria" for gut health. At best, what is "good bacteria" depends on the environmental conditions, and at worst, this bacteria can cause very serious conditions.

Life-style determines gut microbes
"...Finally, the Hadza gut microbe community is a unique configuration with high levels of bacteria, like Treponema, that in western populations are often considered signs of disease, and low levels of other bacteria, like Bifidobacterium, that in western populations are considered “healthy”. However, the Hadza experience little to no autoimmune diseases that would result from gut bacteria imbalances. Therefore, we must redefine our notions of “healthy” and “unhealthy” bacteria, since these distinctions are clearly dependent on the environment we live in. Genetic diversity of bacteria is likely the most important criterion for the health and stability of the gut microbiome."

Finally, some direct evidence that another autoimmune condition - Lupus - may also be caused by the "natural" microbiome we all carry, and specifically by the Lactobacillus strain we have been told so many times is so "good" for us, and is in fact present in many/most probiotic supplements sold around the world.
"..."...Critical analysis of systemic lupus erythematosus indicates that this disease, like rheumatic fever and glomerulonephritis, is caused by cross-reactions between antibodies to bacterial polysaccharides and similar chemical groupings of the polysaccharides in body membranes. Group-A &bgr;-haemolytic streptococci do not appear to be involved. The source of the antigen(s) is probably the gram-positive normal flora. Lactobacilli are suggested as a prime suspect.""
 
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High_Prob

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I know you've talked about eating yogurt in the past but I do not recall your final stance on the issue. Where do you stand now? Do you think eating moderate amounts of greek yogurt (OR Skyr) without any added probiotics (other than what is already naturally in the yogurt) is okay?

Come to think of it, I should probably ask about this in a different section...
 
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Drareg

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Since cleaning up my diet I found introducing the Greek style low fat high protein yoghurt to be a disaster.
They contain streptococcus thermophilus and lactobacillus bulgaricus, for me they definitely suppress metabolism and outlook.

I would rather use a clean brand of casein if I am stuck for protein in spite of HGH questions it doesn't leave me feeling flat.
 

snowboard111

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People fascination/obsession with the gut flora kind a look like the same as with genetics. In idea and context, the discourse about it feel a lot like the genetic theories... Those "invisible thing" living inside of us that "dictate and influence" everything about us whether we agree or not. As you pointed out, the genome project being a failure, the scientific community need another subject of focus that will keep them busy for the next 50 years... Dancing around with all the variables that influence the gut flora is I guess an even bigger puzzle than the genes themselves.

It's just the same charade with a different subject matter...
 
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haidut

haidut

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I know you've talked about eating yogurt in the past but I do not recall your final stance on the issue. Where do you stand now? Do you think eating moderate amounts of greek yogurt (OR Skyr) without any added probiotics (other than what is already naturally in the yogurt) is okay?

Come to think of it, I should probably ask about this in a different section...

I personally do not react well to Greek yogurt but Skyr seems to sit well with me. Go figure...
I think it is highly individual, but for people with "autoimmune" issues the yogurts are probably best avoided.
 
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haidut

haidut

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People fascination/obsession with the gut flora kind a look like the same as with genetics. In idea and context, the discourse about it feel a lot like the genetic theories... Those "invisible thing" living inside of us that "dictate and influence" everything about us whether we agree or not. As you pointed out, the genome project being a failure, the scientific community need another subject of focus that will keep them busy for the next 50 years... Dancing around with all the variables that influence the gut flora is I guess an even bigger puzzle than the genes themselves.

It's just the same charade with a different subject matter...

Yep. Everything in the Western world is an industry and every industry tries to protect itself and continuously justify its own existence.
 

dfspcc20

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Interesting, especially the last one about the Hadza. Seems like the gut flora will find a balance based on the environment (big surprise there). Makes me wonder if trying to "outsmart" the system either way (either by sterilizing or purposely inoculating) will have unintended consequences. Sterile guts might work for GMO mice in a sterile lab, but what about real world scenarios?
 

paymanz

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is that meaning a healthy metabolism with a healthy immune system is capable to keep digestive tract nearly sterile?!

or we need to take antibiotics regularly?
 

michael94

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I definitely think probiotic capsules and yogurt can be overrated in terms of flora effects. Probiotics are a big business and the effects are quite transient so you need to keep buying more. The best way to get probiotics is to be around dirt and healthy animal ***t. Kids raised in rural areas especially on farms have much less health problems than those in cities. A lot of natural flora are either beneficial or pathogenic depending on the pH of the intestines.
 
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there seems to be very good evidence for fecal transplants. You can't sterilize the gut. you have to have something there. The key is the balance and how to reach the balance.

I've gotten benefit from bifido probiotics. And occasional use of S. Boulardii.
 

Peater Piper

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there seems to be very good evidence for fecal transplants. You can't sterilize the gut. you have to have something there. The key is the balance and how to reach the balance.
Right. It's never going to be sterile, but some people have had good luck with antibiotics and carrot salads to reduce the bacterial populations. Others end up worse. Some people get good results with probiotics, prebiotics, and resistant starch, others end up worse. It would be nice if it were a black and white issue, keep it clean with various methods, or keep it replete with "good" bacteria with various methods, but unfortunately it seems to vary considerably what will work from one person to the next.
 

lindsay

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Doesn't the "healthy" bacteria in yogurt not even survive the stomach and small intestine though? If not, then it wouldn't really matter. Also, the interesting thing about fermented foods and "bacteria" which I always wonder about, is that they release Co2. I recently began making my own kombucha for fun (though I haven't actually been drinking it - just giving to friends) and I left a bottle in the refrigerator for too long and when I opened it, there was this ginormous explosion from the bottle, like I was opening a champagne bottle. The liquid just came bubbling out. So wouldn't the release of Co2 from bacteria be a good thing? Also, alcohol kills bacteria, but it also raises serotonin. So while I am totally interested in the topic of bacteria versus sterility of the gut, I've also gotten through food poisoning with Kefir and potato starch in the past (worked miracles), so I think there is a balance that is suppose to be achieved, since we cannot live in sterile environments. Also, cultures have been fermenting foods for years - maybe it's our modern practices that stink. But this is great stuff either way :) No idea why people would be sending you hate mail.
 

heartnhands

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Doesn't the "healthy" bacteria in yogurt not even survive the stomach and small intestine though? If not, then it wouldn't really matter. Also, the interesting thing about fermented foods and "bacteria" which I always wonder about, is that they release Co2. I recently began making my own kombucha for fun (though I haven't actually been drinking it - just giving to friends) and I left a bottle in the refrigerator for too long and when I opened it, there was this ginormous explosion from the bottle, like I was opening a champagne bottle. The liquid just came bubbling out. So wouldn't the release of Co2 from bacteria be a good thing? Also, alcohol kills bacteria, but it also raises serotonin. So while I am totally interested in the topic of bacteria versus sterility of the gut, I've also gotten through food poisoning with Kefir and potato starch in the past (worked miracles), so I think there is a balance that is suppose to be achieved, since we cannot live in sterile environments. Also, cultures have been fermenting foods for years - maybe it's our modern practices that stink. But this is great stuff either way :) No idea why people would be sending you hate mail.
There is a lot to flesh out about this issue and chances are it's going to take some very nuanced researxh. No matter what the haters will break through to rational expressions and we will all be better off with more research and understanding. I TRUST Haidut and everyone to have truth as their focus.

If possible Haidut perhaps you can answer talk about all the horrible losses of nerve function from people who took Ciprofloxin. I've seen the death spiral hastened by people given heavy doses of anti biotic.
 
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haidut

haidut

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There is a lot to flesh out about this issue and chances are it's going to take some very nuanced researxh. No matter what the haters will break through to rational expressions and we will all be better off with more research and understanding. I TRUST Haidut and everyone to have truth as their focus.

If possible Haidut perhaps you can answer talk about all the horrible losses of nerve function from people who took Ciprofloxin. I've seen the death spiral hastened by people given heavy doses of anti biotic.

The fluoroquinolone (and some other families) antibiotics are known to block neuromuscular transmission, and it seems that calcium administration may be protective.
Neuromuscular-blocking drug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Neuromuscular Blocking Activity of Aminoglycoside Antibiotics
 
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Derek

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If possible Haidut perhaps you can answer talk about all the horrible losses of nerve function from people who took Ciprofloxin. I've seen the death spiral hastened by people given heavy doses of anti biotic.

It is the fluoride in Cipro that is responsible for all of the nerve damage. Quinolones cross the blood-brain barrier very efficiently. So by combining a quinolone with fluorine, it will just potentiate all the neurotoxic effects of fluorine by increasing it's concentration in the brain.
 

heartnhands

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It is the fluoride in Cipro that is responsible for all of the nerve damage. Quinolones cross the blood-brain barrier very efficiently. So by combining a quinolone with fluorine, it will just potentiate all the neurotoxic effects of fluorine by increasing it's concentration in the brain.
Wholly God in heaven! I'm not privy to the contents of each medicine and the notion that Florin is in any ingestible form seems truly devious. Can you please send me a link that shows, in terms Un chemistry educated folks understand, that florin is in Whatever antibiotics? What scientific tests promoted such a nasty combination? I know none of the medical professionals I know are skilled or knowledgeable enough to know florin is a neurotoxin. Forgive me for being so disturbed....Being that I'm outdoorsey, I keep Cipro on hand incase of brown recluse spider bites. Last summer I was unable to move and only because a friend put her hand on my back could I feel the kidney contractions...figuring I was poisoned I took the Cipro. It aleviated the kidneys and I could wiggle in a few hours and walk by morning.

Can you point me to another antibiotic that would be effective against Recluse or other Poisonous critters?
 

heartnhands

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The fluoroquinolone (and some other families) antibiotics are known to block neuromuscular transmission, and it seems that calcium administration may be protective.
Neuromuscular-blocking drug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Neuromuscular Blocking Activity of Aminoglycoside Antibiotics
Thanks for the links...So is it safe to use a Tablespoon of eggshell calcium along with Cipro in the odd case of a recluse spider bite? Is it safe to consider egg shell calcium a good chelation for Florida and any other metals like Iron? Thanks for any input.
 

lexis

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Glyphosate can be more harmful than gut bacteria and may contribute to MS

It is present even in refined sugar.
 
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

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