Nandrolone like TRT. DECA lower serotonin and increase Dopamine in rats.

[shine]

You could try testosterone and primobolan in a 1:1 ratio to keep E2 in check.

Edit: Oh somebody already suggested it.

 

[AspiringSage]

You could try testosterone and primobolan in a 1:1 ratio to keep E2 in check.

Edit: Oh somebody already suggested it.

A second opinion is always welcome. I come at this topic area from a harm reduction point of view. I think testosterone + primobolan is safer than testosterone + nandrolone which in turn strikes me as safer than nandrolone run solo.

 

[supercoolguy]

Gûs80 have you tried using primobolan to control estrogen?

That's a possibility??

 

[AspiringSage]

That's a possibility??

Sure:

boldenone aka equipoise
1-testosterone aka dihydroboldenone
primobolan aka methenolone
masteron aka drostanolone

All seem to function as aromatase inhibitors. I am a little out of my depth to come up with a longer list. The classical AI exemestane likely works by processing down into a boldenone like metabolite. It’s come up elsewhere on the forum. Many of the old school body builders only used primobolan to control estrogen. Arnold is said to have run ‘a lot’ of primobolan to control testosterone conversion to estrogen/dianabol conversion to quasi estrogen. Boldenone itself is renowned for crashing estrogen so hard that it causes low estrogen problems.

 

[Gûs80]

Gûs80 have you tried using primobolan to control estrogen?

Not. Of the dht derivatives I tried oxandrolone recently and stanozolol 2 years ago. Both with testosterone . What impressed me is that I gained a good amount of muscle mass and didn't lose subcutaneous fat, just visceral fat. As I have a lot of lipomastia, I decided to test Masteron, which Haidut believes would be the only one he would have the courage to use.

Have you had experience with Primo?

 

[Gûs80]

You could try testosterone and primobolan in a 1:1 ratio to keep E2 in check.

Edit: Oh somebody already suggested it.

I will save this option for the future, in case my test with Deca + Masteron is not effective in reducing subcutaneous fat or improving well-being, sleep and fatigue. Thanks

 

[Gûs80]

Sure:

boldenone aka equipoise
1-testosterone aka dihydroboldenone
primobolan aka metenolone
masteron aka drostanolone

All seem to function as aromatase inhibitors. I am a little out of my depth to come up with a longer list. The classical AI exemestane likely works by processing down into a boldenone like metabolite. It’s come up elsewhere on the forum. Many of the old school body builders only used primobolan to control estrogen. Arnold is said to have run ‘a lot’ of primobolan to control testosterone conversion to estrogen/dianabol conversion to quasi estrogen. Boldenone itself is renowned for crashing estrogen so hard that it causes low estrogen problems.

I usually read that bodybuilders in the Golden Age avoided the use of T at all costs, because of the difficulty controlling E2. That's why they used Deca Base with Dianabol and when cutting Primo to dry. They report that this was the favorite cycle of many, particularly Frank Zane, who is alive and well physically, as are Lou Ferrigno, Mike Katz, Robby Robinson. Most of those appearing in Pumping Iron lived above average expectations.

Another source of studies on Nandrolone is the long experience in the replacement of patients with HIV.

"Some forum users who trained at that time also often report that they used lower dosages than today (10 to 20mg dianabol per day), but what was left among the elite guys is anyone's guess.
Bodybuilding expert Nelson Montana reports the following dosages for Arnold and Zane:
– ARNOLD
He reported enjoyed 600mg of primo week and 50mg of d-bol daily.
– FRANK ZANE
Frank combined 100mg of deca and 100mg of primo week and used some thyroid hormone (T3) as well."

A interesting aspect, notice how everyone from that era still had hair. As soon as T was heavily used (with AI) in bodybuilding, everyone lost their hair. Appearance was better, skin texture, etc.

 

[Gûs80]

Deca Only For HRT - Comprehensive Overview And Personal Blood Work

After trying a Deca only cycle for HRT for three months, I had an elaborate blood panel completed to assess my health markers. These are the results.

moreplatesmoredates.com

This guy did a 3 month trial with Deca Only with labs to analyze the changes.

Some advantages of his story:
- Deca did not suppress Pregnenolone, Progesterone and Dhea (T deletes all).
- Deca decreased your prolactin (contrary to common sense). (T increase in many)

Disadvantages:
- Deca suppressed DHT a lot (as expected since it converts to DHN). It would need an exogenous source..
- Decreased e2 a lot (as we all already knew). It could be increased with DHEA.
- Increase Estrone.

I've seen Dr Ray Peat saying that the ideal prolactin should be between 4 and 7.

But I've never seen anything about the maximum levels he considers safe for men. Can anyone tell?

 

[Gûs80]

That's the result of a Brazilian doctor with Deca + D-bol + e2 + mk677 (a mild precursor to GH).

This doctor prescribes Deca Only to some of his patients who do not feel well on TRT and the results are good. He says he has many patients who do not adapt to the use of exogenous testosterone, but feel fulfilled with Deca Only. I am in doubt about the cause of this: would it be the e2 or the DHT?

He even switches between Deca and Testo, as hormone replacement. He reports enjoying being low on DHT. But from what we know on this forum, it might not be a good long-term strategy.

 

[Gûs80]

Therapeutic effects of nandrolone and testosterone in adult male HIV patients with AIDS wasting syndrome (AWS): a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial - PubMed

Our trial demonstrates the superior therapeutic effects of nandrolone in male AWS patients, including the androgen deficient.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results: Intent-to-treat analysis was done. The nandrolone group recorded maximum mean increase in weight (3.20 kg; post hoc P < .01 compared to placebo). Body mass index (BMI) of subjects in the nandrolone group had a significantly greater increase (mean = 1.28) compared to both testosterone (post hoc P < .05) and placebo (post hoc P < .01). Waist circumference and triceps skinfold thickness of patients on nandrolone showed similar results. Nandrolone also ensured a better quality of life. Patients with low testosterone level (<3 ng/mL) benefited immensely from nandrolone therapy, which increased their weight and BMI significantly compared to placebo (P < .05).

Conclusion: Our trial demonstrates the superior therapeutic effects of nandrolone in male AWS patients, including the androgen deficient.

 

[Gûs80]

Safety and efficacy of nandrolone decanoate for treatment of wasting in patients with HIV infection - PubMed

Nandrolone decanoate has beneficial effects on weight, lean body mass and quality of life in selected patients who have mild to moderate HIV wasting.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Quality of life parameters, especially functionality, increased significantly during the trial. No subject experienced toxicity.

Conclusion: Nandrolone decanoate has beneficial effects on weight, lean body mass and quality of life in selected patients who have mild to moderate HIV wasting.

 

[Gûs80]

Treatment with nandrolone decanoate and megestrol acetate in HIV-infected men - PubMed

The combined treatment with MA and ND led to a significant increase in body weight and FFM. Muscle strength and quality of life improved during the study. The treatment was well tolerated with mild side effects.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusions: The combined treatment with MA and ND led to a significant increase in body weight and FFM. Muscle strength and quality of life improved during the study. The treatment was well tolerated with mild side effects.

 

[Gûs80]

Effects of nandrolone decanoate compared with placebo or testosterone on HIV-associated wasting - PubMed

Objectives Current research is unclear about the most effective pharmacological agents for managing the loss of weight and fat-free mass common in HIV/AIDS. The aim of this study was to compare nandrolone decanoate with placebo and testosterone. Methods The study was a multicentre randomized...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Patient perception of benefit was significantly greater in the nandrolone group when compared with both the placebo and the testosterone groups. Conclusions Treatment with nandrolone decanoate increased body weight when compared with placebo and testosterone. Nandrolone decanoate treatment resulted in greater increases in fat-free mass than placebo and demonstrated a trend for a significant increase when compared with testosterone.

 

[DenizkaRedizka]

Can you be honest with yourself and admit that you need to lower your body fat percentage to 10-12 in order to reduce the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, instead of looking for the perfect steroid?

 

[Matestube]

Can you be honest with yourself and admit that you need to lower your body fat percentage to 10-12 in order to reduce the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol, instead of looking for the perfect steroid?

Nothing wrong with optimizing chemistry to make up for body imperfections.
Did he say what body fat % he was at ?

Testosterone in DMSO applied to the scrotum would completely circumvent any aromatization issue brought upon by higher body fat if that was really a problem. Other steroids can still be used for their many qualities, not just because an alternative to testosterone needs to be found : neurotransmitters modulation can be one of the reasons.

 

[DenizkaRedizka]

Nothing wrong with optimizing chemistry to make up for body imperfections.
Did he say what body fat % he was at ?

Testosterone in DMSO applied to the scrotum would completely circumvent any aromatization issue brought upon by higher body fat if that was really a problem. Other steroids can still be used for their many qualities, not just because an alternative to testosterone needs to be found : neurotransmitters modulation can be one of the reasons.

The OP mentioned that he has 25 percent body fat and is likely underestimating his body fat percentage like everyone else (actually the bodyfat % is higher).
I don't think it's appropriate for you to recommend anything about TRT and exogenous hormones.

 

[Matestube]

The OP mentioned that he has 25 percent body fat and is likely underestimating his body fat percentage like everyone else (actually the bodyfat % is higher).
I don't think it's appropriate for you to recommend anything about TRT and exogenous hormones.

Oh it is totally appropriate, I have experimented more on myself with steroids and peptides for the past seven years than anyone on this forum has even read was possible.

That means I started when you were 12, let that sink in,

May I ask why you think I shouldn't recommend anything about hormones ?

 

[DenizkaRedizka]

Oh it is totally appropriate, I have experimented more on myself with steroids and peptides for the past seven years than anyone on this forum has even read was possible.

That means I started when you were 12, let that sink in,

May I ask why you think I shouldn't recommend anything about hormones ?

I do not deny your experience and authority, but sometimes, it seems to me that you are trolling, recommending that everyone apply androgens to the gonads, thinking that this will fix the problem so simply.

 

[AspiringSage]

Any update on your experiences with nandrolone Gûs80?

 

[Gûs80]

Any update on your experiences with nandrolone Gûs80?

Hello.

A little while yet, but I notice a strong decrease in anxiety, I'm zen. I notice a lot less anxiety when talking, a more serene tone of voice, speaking at a slower speed, as if I had just finished meditating. Testo made me anxious, impulsive and a little aggressive.

Lower libido, which I think is positive, since it used to be exaggerated, testo (maybe high e2) made me think about sex 25 hours a day, something terrible for someone who is married like me.

So far no erection problems.

I noticed a slight improvement in forehead wrinkles, which had recently appeared after continued use of testosterone. Deca is pro-collagen and Testo is not.

As I took 15 days of vacation, it is not possible to evaluate changes in the body. I got back to training this week.