Nadia Wyatt Won Olympia Doing Stan Efferdings Vertical Diet

ExCarniv

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@Taotatoes with Gelatin I feel less Doms after training and football matches that I used to had, but I don't think Gelatin as a supplement but as part of my regular foods.

The only supplement I think is vital is Magnesium, Stan himself changed his view on it, before he said to eat almonds and spinach was enough for Magnesium, then reccomended Mag supplementation.

I only take Magnesium and changed my life in so many ways, seems like I was really deficient on it.


Vertical diet put me in the right direction, then I changed the things I see wrong for myself, specifically Salmon which is really toxic and more white fish and shellfish and less red meat
 
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The vertical diet incorporates more spinach/salmon for calcium instead of dairy but being that it's not as easy to absorb from plant sources I could definitely see the ratios becoming an issue if people don't do much salmon or sardines.
Ya, Ray seems to recommend boiling veggies for a while. Though I've heard him recommend egg shell calcium as a supplement on kmud.
So the egg shell could be used with gelatin/collagen when eating a big meat meal. Swig it back with water lol. Unless one wanted to make quality high protein gummy style candies, and put egg shell into capsules.
 
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What do we think guys? Would Dr. Peat approve? I mean he might envy her DHT levels.
 

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Taotatoes

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What do we think guys? Would Dr. Peat approve? I mean he might envy her DHT levels.

Cheryl Leigh-Frost (@cherylleighpro) • Instagram photos and videos How about Cheryl? Think he'd approve of her using his work to coach people while selling an unrealistic image of whats attainable as a natural, with her obvious AAS use and crazy photoshopping skills?

The vertical diet is just one example/version of people succeeding in the fitness industry using his principles.
 
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I recall watching a video from Brian Shaw where he was eating something like 12000 calories or something per day, and he was eating a significant amount of PUFA, from highly inflammatory things such as peanut butter. He was eating many eggs a day too, so his linoleic acid intake was likely very high. Considering how PUFA increases serotonin, and considering how bad serotonin, it makes sense that his performance wasn't as good as it used to be. His new diet seems lower in PUFA, and I didn't see any peanuts or high PUFA things, so I think he's in a better track now. Best wishes for him.
 
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I recall watching a video from Brian Shaw where he was eating something like 12000 calories or something per day, and he was eating a significant amount of PUFA, from highly inflammatory things such as peanut butter. He was eating many eggs a day too, so his linoleic acid intake was likely very high. Considering how PUFA increases serotonin, and considering how bad serotonin, it makes sense that his performance wasn't as good as it used to be. His new diet seems lower in PUFA, and I didn't see any peanuts or high PUFA things, so I think he's in a better track now. Best wishes for him.

That must have been pre-Vertical. Efferding would have had him add eggs and less lean cuts of red meat.
 
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Lol Vegan Gains is, indeed, quite delusional. He thinks killing animals is wrong, but he's only alive because of his ancestors' meat-eating habits. Also, he basically ignores that animals kill each other in nature all the time, there is no pity or mercy when a carnivore animal is hungry, ignoring this is likely a form of autism. It's quite funny that he says Stan has a mental illness when he himself doesn't even have the courage to eat animals.

Before anyone takes Vegtard Gains seriously, it's important to note that he has depression, is a psycopath, loves beating people up, prefers animals to humans, and, the most embarrassing one, he still believes that LDL-cholesterol causes heart disease. "But it's fine, all of the """"credible"""" authorities say that saturated fat is bad for you".

His life is like a car wreck, we all know how it will end.
 
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boxers

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Lol Vegan Gains is, indeed, quite delusional. He thinks killing animals is wrong, but he's only alive because of his ancestors' meat-eating habits. Also, he basically ignores that animals kill each other in nature all the time, there is no pity or mercy when a carnivore animal is hungry, ignoring this is likely a form of autism. It's quite funny that he says Stan has a mental illness when he himself doesn't even have the courage to eat animals.

Before anyone takes Vegtard Gains seriously, it's important to note that he has depression, is a psycopath, loves beating people up, prefers animals to humans, and, the most embarrassing one, he still believes that LDL-cholesterol causes heart disease. "But it's fine, all of the """"credible"""" authorities say that saturated fat is bad for you".

His life is like a car wreck, we all know how it will end.


I would like to believe the experts and keep my LDL at around 50-70.. Im not risking it you can certainly deny the studies and keep your LDL high..
Optimal low-density lipoprotein is 50 to 70 mg/dl

Following a peat inspired vegan diet. My last LDL was 74
 
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I would like to believe the experts and keep my LDL at around 50-70.. Im not risking it you can certainly deny the studies and keep your LDL high..
Optimal low-density lipoprotein is 50 to 70 mg/dl

Following a peat inspired vegan diet. My last LDL was 74
There is no denying the studies, the studies he mentions are purely based on assumptions that were never proved. They say things like "risk of heart disease", which means basically nothing, since they don't even know that hypothyroidism increases cholesterol, and it's hypothyroidism itself which is the main driver of heart disease. He says saturated fat increases cholesterol. NO JOKE, SERIOUSLY, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, what a surprise. Of course it increases cholesterol. But then the * completely unbiased, totally-not-paid-by-the-pharmaceutical-industry* researchers say: "see, saturated fat increases cholesterol, and high cholesterol causes heart disease, so eat PUFA". The ( intentional) mistake is quite clear.

You're in this forum for over a year, I would expect you to have read at least one or two of Peat's articles. If you did read them, then I'd expect a better counter- argument to the cholesterol myth then "just listen to the authorities, man".

Btw, a LDL number of 74 is extremely low. Low LDL increases mortality from CVD. You think you're not risking it when, in fact, what you're doing is basically risking it.

I'm surely gonna keep my LDL as elevated as possible within reason. Tallow+ fructose is my strategy to keep LDL high. I also don't eat pretty much any fiber, to make sure it isn't absorbing the cholesterol and making it be excreted.
 

boxers

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There is no denying the studies, the studies he mentions are purely based on assumptions that were never proved. They say things like "risk of heart disease", which means basically nothing, since they don't even know that hypothyroidism increases cholesterol, and it's hypothyroidism itself which is the main driver of heart disease. He says saturated fat increases cholesterol. NO JOKE, SERIOUSLY, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, what a surprise. Of course it increases cholesterol. But then the * completely unbiased, totally-not-paid-by-the-pharmaceutical-industry* researchers say: "see, saturated fat increases cholesterol, and high cholesterol causes heart disease, so eat PUFA". The ( intentional) mistake is quite clear.

You're in this forum for over a year, I would expect you to have read at least one or two of Peat's articles. If you did read them, then I'd expect a better counter- argument to the cholesterol myth then "just listen to the authorities, man".

Btw, a LDL number of 74 is extremely low. Low LDL increases mortality from CVD. You think you're not risking it when, in fact, what you're doing is basically risking it.

I'm surely gonna keep my LDL as elevated as possible within reason. Tallow+ fructose is my strategy to keep LDL high. I also don't eat pretty much any fiber, to make sure it isn't absorbing the cholesterol and making it be excreted.


Reducing LDL cholesterol to very low levels is safe and reduces major vascular events, according to a meta-analysis.
NEJM Journal Watch: Summaries of and commentary on original medical and scientific articles from key medical journals
Under 100 is recommended. 74 isnt considered extremely low. Even when doing more fat my LDL was always around 100 and my heart is excellent at least according to my ekg, stress stress test, echo, CT scan and all my other markers have never been better (prolactin, thyroid, CRP, ferritin, etc)

Lowering LDL-C in Patients Starting With Very Low Levels - American College of Cardiology
The tsimane have the healthiest hearts found, they have an average LDL of 92.
https://www.acc.org/~/media/Clinical/PDF-Files/Approved-PDFs/2017/03/13/18/ACC17_Mar17/1215pmET Native South American Tsimane.pdf
Sequence variations in PCSK9, low LDL, and protection against coronary heart disease. - PubMed - NCBI
https://ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.cir.0000103664.47406.49
Facts and principles learned at the 39th Annual Williamsburg Conference on Heart Disease
Twenty questions on atherosclerosis
Statins for Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease in Adults
Beyond Meatless, the Health Effects of Vegan Diets: Findings from the Adventist Cohorts
http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf
C-reactive protein response to a vegan lifestyle intervention. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.karger.com/Article/ShowPic/173604/?image=000173604-1.jpg
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3623938/pdf/nihms446454.pdf
NLRP3 inflammasomes are required for atherogenesis and activated by cholesterol crystals
http://www.jlr.org/content/35/1/93.full.pdf
 
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Recommended by whom, medical associations who do not follow any science at all? Ray has warned that low cholesterol is bad, and, in an interview with Andrew Murray, who mentioned that his own cholesterol was low, Ray emphasized that increasing it is really important. Low cholesterol and dementia are related.

The Tsimane are not vegan, they get around 15% of their calories from animal foods. Not that you said they were, I'm just pointing it out.

The low LDL-cholesterol levels and them having healthy cardiovascular systems forms a correlation, there isn't any proof whatsoever that having low LDL-cholesterol will make your cardiovascular health increase. You're ignoring the fact that they live in a much less urban/ civilized environment, which means things such as: more walking, less PUFA oil consumption, less stress, more meaningful relationships, higher-quality foods, less air pollution, less EMFs, more brestfeeding, etc. To say that they have less atherosclerosis because their cholesterol is low is quite myopic.

Scientists Discovered the Lowest Rates of Heart Disease Ever Recorded. Here's What the People Eat.
"Finally, it’s important to note that researchers don’t think it’s one specific thing that keeps the Tsimane’s hearts so healthy."

According to this site, the Tsimani still had high levels of inflammation, and their levels of calcium and fat- soluble vitamins wasn't great, as says this site: https://www.eatfitlivelong.com/tsimane-diet-healthy-heart/

Their c-reactive protein is often high, and their HDL cholesterol is low( not that I think HDL is something to increase, but you like the mainstream view, so you probably think higher HDL is better). Their ESR sometimes is elevated, another indication that they're not low in inflammation. So much for low cholesterol as a means to lower inflammation. Their rate of infection is high, which is something @CLASH explained in another thread: cholesterol is important when fighting infectious diseases, so their low cholesterol levels aren't doing them any favors.

The graphs in your first link are comparing, in reality, industrialized vs non- industrialized populations, so the results make sense.

Your second link is nothing more than correlation. This gene encodes an enzyme which decreases the uptake of cholesterol from the extracellular medium into the cell, thus lowering this enzyme will also lower the serum cholesterol. BUT there is no proof that it's the exiting of cholesterol from the bloodstream that causes benefits. Considering that hypothyroid people get very high cholesterol due to the inability of cells to absorb and metabolize it, something that stimulates the uptake of cholesterol may also stimulate the production of protective hormones( progesterone, pregnenolone, testosterone, etc.), thus causing benefits.

Your third link is basically the same thing, a correlation, but, in this case, they're measuring the progression of plaque and the cross sectional area( basically the circular size or the openness of the artery). If I'm reading this study right, they compared a group of people to another group of people, and then tried to extract conclusions from it, therefore it wasn't even an international study, so it really doesn't have much value. What they found out is that people who had higher levels of cholesterol had more plaque in their arteries and they weren't was wide. Now, this doesn't prove in any way that LDL-cholesterol causes plaque or artery narrowing. As Ray Peat has mentioned many times, what causes heart disease is HYPOTHYROIDISM, it's NOT cholesterol. So the researchers interpreted the data wrongly. What this study really says is: people with hypothyroidism have higher levels of cholesterol, and the more severe the hypothyroidism, the higher the cholesterol, and, of course the worse the hypothyroidism, the worse CVD you'll get. High cholesterol is an indication, not a CAUSE, of heart disease. That's why people in group B were a little better than people in group A: their hypothyroidism wasn't as severe.

Your fourth link goes against the idea that cholesterol is what causes heart disease:
"The studies traced out the various components of plaques from each 5-mm-long segment of each of the 4 major coronary arteries, and fibrous tissue was by far the dominant component of coronary plaques, comprising about 70%, while lipids comprised about 10%; calcium, about 10%; and miscellaneous, the other 10%."

Considering how PUFAs cause liver fibrosis, it isn't a stretch to think that it causes the same to the arteries. William C Roberts is wrong, cholesterol does not cause heart disease. He is confusing a beneficial by-stander( cholesterol) with the cause of heart disease when both very elevated cholesterol and heart disease are caused by hypothyroidism. Then the study goes on about how feeding cholesterol to rabbits makes them develop heart disease, which is something Peat has debunked a long time ago in his Cholesterol newsletter. In the end, all they talk about is RISK reduction, which is calculated using death statistics from people who have hypothyroidism and, as a consequence, elevated cholesterol, but, since they are looking at this in a very wrong way, their conclusion will be wrong too( "lower your cholesterol and live a happy, heart-attack-free life!"). This quote from the study is interesting:
"In the VA-HIT study (28), gemfibrozil reduced CHD death/MI by 22% vs placebo after 5 years. These patients did not take statins, and the benefit was attributed to a decrease in triglycerides (−31%) and an increase in HDL-C (+6%), as there was no significant change in LDL-C."

The study about C-reactive protein in vegans says that the C-reactive protein decreased when they started a vegan diet, but what was their previous diet? The standard american diet? Eating nothing at all would likely reduce C-reactive protein if someone is coming from a standard amercian diet full of PUFA. This study doesn't have much weight, other than showing that even a starvation diet is better than what americans eat. Vegetable Police's blood work showed lower inflammation on a carnivore diet then on a vegan diet.

Your tenth link talks about lipemia, but it's mostly free fatty acids that can cause it, as far as I know, not cholesterol. Excessive free fatty acids in the blood block glucose usage and, as a consequence, decrease CO2 production, which is paramount to good oxygenation of the cells. If you run a marathon, your free fatty acids will likely be very high, so that's one instance of lipemia that I know of, and quite a dangerous one, since the kidneys don't like a lot of free fatty acids.

Cholesterol is found in plaque because it's healing it, not because it started it. The same is seen in other parts of the body when in infectious states. Gallbladder stones may be caused by lack of dietary fat, especially long chain fats. If the bile stays stagnated in the gallbladder for months or years, then it may get too concentrated. This is also one reason why I avoid long streaks of NoFap: my balls start to hurt after a while, likely due to semen stagnation.

The Adventist studies obviously have a bias towards veganism, and they use epidemiology to try to prove that not eating meat is better, but the thing is, these people are health conscious, so they pay more attention to things such as sleep, exercise, relationships, avoiding smoking or drinking alcohol. It's impossible to say that it's the veganism that is causing their health benefits. This explains why meat eaters have it worse when compared to other groups: eating red meat is pretty much a proxy for " I don't really care about health" attitude. It's not the red meat, which they eat very little of, by the way( not even 100 grams per day), it's the drinking, smoking, not sleeping enough, not exercising,etc.

"Cholesterol crystals" may have something in common with "uric acid crystals". People with high uric acid don't necessarily have gout or other diseases. In fact they are protected from things such as Multiple Sclerosis. The question to be asked here is "what causes cholesterol or uric acid to become crystals?". One study said that uric acid has a higher chance to become crystals when excessive acidity is present. Lactic acid is produced in bigger quantities when someone eats a big amount of PUFA, since PUFAs deactivate the PDH enzyme. People who have heart disease aren't people who have healthy thyroid levels, so either always or almost always, they're gonna have high lactic acid. So it seems like uric acid is really only a problem when the person is unhealthy. I think the same happens with cholesterol. If the person has no inflammation in the artery walls, then cholesterol won't crystallize, and it won't damage anything. Uric acid crystals are quite painful, reportedly, so a very beneficial molecule such as uric acid can cause physical damage if it precipitates somewhere.

The link about statins and CVD prevention is a review, so basically they can leave out any evidence that doesn't support their intentions. https://raypeatforum.com/community/...deaths-benefits-of-statins-exaggerated.11527/

The eighth link is an intervention, which is much better than reviews and epidemiology studies. But they didn't prove that avoiding meat lowers CVD risk, it only showed that if you can reverse CVD on a meatless diet. I never said it couldn't be done, I just said that you don't HAVE to do it. The participants of the study that were on the plant-based diet were basically eating a low PUFA diet, which, I would argue, is the reason why they saw improvements. The study doesn't mention how much flaxseed they ate exactly, but unless they either ground up the seeds or used flaxseed oil, I don't think they'll be absorbing much of the fat in the flaxseeds, so they're bascially doing a very low fat, low PUFA diet. The vast amount of carbs in the diet surely helped, and for very sick people, choosing between high carb or high fat is important, but it surely doesn't need to be vegan either way.

Thanks for the studies, btw.
 

boxers

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I don't plan on being vegan long term which ultimately seems to cause problems long term and I do agree with you for the most part and provide much evidence as well.
 

CLASH

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The tsimane life expectancy for the majority of the population is in the 40-50's, I talked about this on haiduts thread on the topic. Maybe they'd have more heart disese if they actually made it past middle age. Also, the infectious burden in the tsimane was at ridiculous levels, which can directly lower cholesterol, as the cholesterol is being used in an immune capacity to protect against the infection.

The fatty plaques found in blood vessels are mostly composed of unsaturated fats and oxidized cholesterol products. Increasing unsaturated fats increases the oxidation of cholesterol almost in a direct relationship, thus increasing the atherosclerosis. Unsaturated fats cause heart disease. Endotoxin causes heart disease. Saturated fats and cholesterol are directly protective against both of those things and subsequently atherosclerosis and heart disease.

Cholesterol isnt associated with heart disease in total numbers, in HDL or in LDL. Any study supporting that is most likely propaganda to sell statins and plant based vegan diet ideology (There is not a single recorded human population that is vegan). Cholesterol is the precursor to steroid hormones, a structural molecule in cells, a major detoxifying agent of numerous toxic compounds and microbial endproducts, and a precursor to bile acids among other things. Elevations of cholesterol at extreme levels are indicative of a process in the body, the cholesterol isnt the issue itself. The ideology is sold in a way so the medical industry can sell tests and drugs that effect those tests so it seems like they actually do something helpful. Low cholesterol is much more damaging than high and is associated with increases in cancer, and increases in all cause mortality. The healthiest levels of cholesterol seem to be around the 220-260 range especially in older people. Younger people with good thyroid function will obviously have lower levels.
 
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