Nadia Wyatt Won Olympia Doing Stan Efferdings Vertical Diet

[Taotatoes]

Nadia Wyatt (@ifbb_figure_pro_dia) • Instagram photos and videos

Stan's been praising Ray more on his profile page as of late, no doubt now that Nadia won Olympia Ray's ideas will be considered less fringe.

I myself have decided to go all in with the vertical diet again (but the minus gluten this time around) to get myself into peak conditioning before 2020 winter bulk. Debating whether or not to log it here with training routine and progress pictures (usually I just lurk because I'm fairly private online) but I think it'd be cool if us female members who are into fitness and training for aesthetics started sharing more of our successes using Peats principles here.

 

[LucyL]

Would Ray consider that a successful application of his dietary principles?

 

[Korven]

I know Stan loves red meat for the B-vitamins and other nutrients but in my opinion a big problem with the vertical diet is the huge emphasis on red meat consumption. If you eat red meat 3x per day, everyday of the week, that's a lot of excess heme iron + phosphorus which isn't balanced with adequate calcium.

Inspired by various carnivore people and Stan himself I've eaten lots of red meat the past year, up to about 1 pound of ground beef per day. Recently I've started to notice brown spots/age spots/lipofuscin on my arms that weren't there before. I can't say 100% for sure it was caused by the red meat but a likely hypothesis is that it's excess iron resulting in oxidative stress, I believe Ray has said that iron/PUFA/estrogen causes lipofuscin. I'm going to get a blood test soon to see whether my ferritin is too high.

I think a better idea is to vary your protein sources so you don't get iron overload. In fact my current diet looks a lot like the vertical diet but without all of the steaks.

 

[Aaron]

I know Stan loves red meat for the B-vitamins and other nutrients but in my opinion a big problem with the vertical diet is the huge emphasis on red meat consumption. If you eat red meat 3x per day, everyday of the week, that's a lot of excess heme iron + phosphorus which isn't balanced with adequate calcium.

Inspired by various carnivore people and Stan himself I've eaten lots of red meat the past year, up to about 1 pound of ground beef per day. Recently I've started to notice brown spots/age spots/lipofuscin on my arms that weren't there before. I can't say 100% for sure it was caused by the red meat but a likely hypothesis is that it's excess iron resulting in oxidative stress, I believe Ray has said that iron/PUFA/estrogen causes lipofuscin. I'm going to get a blood test soon to see whether my ferritin is too high.

I think a better idea is to vary your protein sources so you don't get iron overload. In fact my current diet looks a lot like the vertical diet but without all of the steaks.

The vertical diet is designed for bodybuilders and strength athletes to get maximum results. Everyone looks way less healthy when they're doing almost only red meat and rice. I've noticed Hafthor and Larry Wheels, two Efferding poster children, have added a lot more variety back into their diets and I think they look less inflamed thanks to that. In terms of my own bodybuilding diet, the main influences Peat has had are including more sugar, juice, milk and gelatin in my diet, as well as encouraging my use of a few supplements. I still don't eat red meat more than 1-2 times a week. I am not inspired at all by the "carnivore diet," it seems completely foolish just like keto, high carb vegan, water fasting, IIFYM, and all this other nonsense. Stan's verbal fluidity makes him seem smarter than he is. In reality he's a straight edge who is very good at regurgitating the same information hundreds of times.

 

[redsun]

The vertical diet is designed for bodybuilders and strength athletes to get maximum results. Everyone looks way less healthy when they're doing almost only red meat and rice. I've noticed Hafthor and Larry Wheels, two Efferding poster children, have added a lot more variety back into their diets and I think they look less inflamed thanks to that. In terms of my own bodybuilding diet, the main influences Peat has had are including more sugar, juice, milk and gelatin in my diet, as well as encouraging my use of a few supplements. I still don't eat red meat more than 1-2 times a week. I am not inspired at all by the "carnivore diet," it seems completely foolish just like keto, high carb vegan, water fasting, IIFYM, and all this other nonsense. Stan's verbal fluidity makes him seem smarter than he is. In reality he's a straight edge who is very good at regurgitating the same information hundreds of times.

If your idea of carnivore diet is eating a bunch of steaks then yeh it is pretty foolish.

 

[Korven]

The vertical diet is designed for bodybuilders and strength athletes to get maximum results. Everyone looks way less healthy when they're doing almost only red meat and rice. I've noticed Hafthor and Larry Wheels, two Efferding poster children, have added a lot more variety back into their diets and I think they look less inflamed thanks to that. In terms of my own bodybuilding diet, the main influences Peat has had are including more sugar, juice, milk and gelatin in my diet, as well as encouraging my use of a few supplements. I still don't eat red meat more than 1-2 times a week. I am not inspired at all by the "carnivore diet," it seems completely foolish just like keto, high carb vegan, water fasting, IIFYM, and all this other nonsense. Stan's verbal fluidity makes him seem smarter than he is. In reality he's a straight edge who is very good at regurgitating the same information hundreds of times.

Yeah I suppose that's why it's not called The Longevity Diet... still though I think Stan looks pretty good for being 51 and having pursed a bodybuilding/powerlifting career for the past 30 years.

Getting on the carnivore bandwagon was definitely a dumb mistake on my part and not something I'm ever doing again. I was listening a lot to Ben Pakulski as he was, and still is apparently, promoting keto/carnivore and how awesome it was eating lots of steak and staying in ketosis. Very quickly I realized 100% carnivore was not going to serve me well (lethargic, hair loss, no energy yet still irritated at everyone) but even after I stopped that stupid diet I continued consuming lots of meat on a daily basis.

Even though I knew about Ray Peat's ideas before it's only recently I've understood that meat is maybe not such a great food to consume in large quantities. I'm making sure to limit meat now and get 1:1 calcium to phosphorus along with plenty of carbs so hopefully that will help me with some health issues I'm dealing with.

 

[ExCarniv]

The vertical diet is designed for bodybuilders and strength athletes to get maximum results. Everyone looks way less healthy when they're doing almost only red meat and rice. I've noticed Hafthor and Larry Wheels, two Efferding poster children, have added a lot more variety back into their diets and I think they look less inflamed thanks to that. In terms of my own bodybuilding diet, the main influences Peat has had are including more sugar, juice, milk and gelatin in my diet, as well as encouraging my use of a few supplements. I still don't eat red meat more than 1-2 times a week. I am not inspired at all by the "carnivore diet," it seems completely foolish just like keto, high carb vegan, water fasting, IIFYM, and all this other nonsense. Stan's verbal fluidity makes him seem smarter than he is. In reality he's a straight edge who is very good at regurgitating the same information hundreds of times.

Bodybuilders doesn't care about longevity, basic they want quick results.

I'm basically doing a modified Vertical diet, plus gelatin, coffee sugar and milk, with less red meat (but still some almost everyday) and no salmon, no spinach and more white potatoes than rice.

 

[Taotatoes]

Would Ray consider that a successful application of his dietary principles?

I personally consider it a successful application of his principles, given my love for and life long participation in sports/athletics. The physique this woman brought to stage without the gaunt cheeks, sunken dead eyes and stage presence/energy speaks volumes of her diet during prep.

 

[Korven]

Bodybuilders doesn't care about longevity, basic they want quick results.

I'm basically doing a modified Vertical diet, plus gelatin, coffee sugar and milk, with less red meat (but still some almost everyday) and no salmon, no spinach and more white potatoes than rice.

That's more or less exactly what I'm doing now, but still playing around with types and amounts of carbs. Potatoes are such a great source of nutrition, potassium and magnesium but sometimes I feel like they are a net negative for me due to serotonin/potential endotoxin issues.

How are you getting along with this diet?

 

[Taotatoes]

Bodybuilders doesn't care about longevity, basic they want quick results.

I'm basically doing a modified Vertical diet, plus gelatin, coffee sugar and milk, with less red meat (but still some almost everyday) and no salmon, no spinach and more white potatoes than rice.

I'm doing something similar, favouring more eggs, white & shell fish, dairy and well prepared/cooked lentils/dal over red meats, which I typically only eat 1-2 meals per week. More potatoes than rice and a wide variety of fruits for carbs.

Stan doesn't preach red meat as having to be the main source of protein in his diet but does advocate protein sources which are assimilated well on individual basis, low in PUFA, heavy metals and estrogens.

 

[LucyL]

I personally consider it a successful application of his principles, given my love for and life long participation in sports/athletics. The physique this woman brought to stage without the gaunt cheeks, sunken dead eyes and stage presence/energy speaks volumes of her diet during prep.

Admittedly I don't look at a lot of bodybuilder photos, but her cheeks looked gaunt to me (her total bodyfat looks to be about zero), compared at least to my mental recollection of the paintings Ray does of women. If compared to other bodybuilders it is as you say, then yeah, that would be good.

 

[Aaron]

Yeah I suppose that's why it's not called The Longevity Diet... still though I think Stan looks pretty good for being 51 and having pursed a bodybuilding/powerlifting career for the past 30 years.

Getting on the carnivore bandwagon was definitely a dumb mistake on my part and not something I'm ever doing again. I was listening a lot to Ben Pakulski as he was, and still is apparently, promoting keto/carnivore and how awesome it was eating lots of steak and staying in ketosis. Very quickly I realized 100% carnivore was not going to serve me well (lethargic, hair loss, no energy yet still irritated at everyone) but even after I stopped that stupid diet I continued consuming lots of meat on a daily basis.

Even though I knew about Ray Peat's ideas before it's only recently I've understood that meat is maybe not such a great food to consume in large quantities. I'm making sure to limit meat now and get 1:1 calcium to phosphorus along with plenty of carbs so hopefully that will help me with some health issues I'm dealing with.

Personally I'm trending more toward mainstream advice. I eat rolled oats, whey, poultry or fish, greek yogurt, cruciferous vegetables, beans, organic tea (slow caffeine metabolizer gene so coffee is too much), olive oil and spices such as organic turmeric or Ceylon cinnamon almost every day and I feel great, far better than I did on a more limited Peat-friendly diet. I mainly avoid harms such as heavily processed foods and ingredients. While I continue to find this forum and Ray himself fascinating, I also look at research and synthesis from a lot of other sources. Stan looks good in the sense of appearing strong and potent, but in my case, having a bald calcified scalp and Snickers bar veins all over my body would be a ghoulish look which most people probably couldn't pull off either. Good luck man with your health man. I'm in good health currently but always seeking better.

 

[Aaron]

Also, good god, apparently that woman was normal-looking at some point.
instagram.com/p/BsqfhI5FQqi/

I understand what she's going for in terms of competing on stage but I find her facial appearance quite disturbing myself.

 

[Cameron]

Simple sugars vs all that white rice and potato would probably serve most people better. Once again a “diet” is usually only beneficial when it focuses to remove excess pufa. Carnivore keto vertical thermo diet. Steak and gelatin is great but that much starch could be quite in issue daily multiple times a day. That much meat without coffee could also be an issue for iron overload and not enough copper with the lack of oysters.

 

[ExCarniv]

That's more or less exactly what I'm doing now, but still playing around with types and amounts of carbs. Potatoes are such a great source of nutrition, potassium and magnesium but sometimes I feel like they are a net negative for me due to serotonin/potential endotoxin issues.

How are you getting along with this diet?

I'm doing well, I play football and do calisthenics so I'm very active, stayed lean the last months with this approach (lost most weight during carnivore experiment, but that brought some ugly issues like severe insomnia and constant cold temperatures that I'm still trying to recover)

Most days I eat protein and sugars during the day, then I eat some potatoes/rice at dinner with saturated fat and a bit more of protein.

Still playing around with calories, sugar timing and different protein sources to up my temperatures and get good sleep, but overall I feel this way of eating pretty sustainable knowing which foods i tolerate well, but became less orthorexic, I can enjoy a pizza with family without freaking out like I did during keto/carnivore.

 

[ExCarniv]

Simple sugars vs all that white rice and potato would probably serve most people better. Once again a “diet” is usually only beneficial when it focuses to remove excess pufa. Carnivore keto vertical thermo diet. Steak and gelatin is great but that much starch could be quite in issue daily multiple times a day. That much meat without coffee could also be an issue for iron overload and not enough copper with the lack of oysters.

Beef, potatoes, orange juice, white rice are decent sources or copper, I usually hit my daily RDA without oysters.

 

[MetabolicTrash]

The thing I agree with most from the vegetarian/vegan side (besides the ethics/animal abuse/killing) is the emphasis on just eating less meat in general. We have a surplus of food choices/resources available to lots of us compared to historical eating methods people or other animals would have to resort to.

The carnivore diet/pro carnivore/heavy meat eating crowd of people seem to (at least in some cases) solely rely on the supposed argument that "we are meant to eat lots of meat." I think this is a shortsighted argument; and I've never heard any solid evidence that any significant portion of meat is needed on a daily basis. Animals, like the lioness for example, go on long treks to hunt some portion of meat to last maybe days -- then might go some time without eating before repeating I think. It isn't like all animals in the wild are eating humongous portions of meats every single day with no digestive breaks. Plenty of animals in the wild go through what you could call involuntary fasting, followed by heavy re-feeds to make up for all of the time they've been malnourished or such and trying to secure food.

How this translates for some people in to "eat lots of meat every day" is beyond me (especially muscle meats). I don't think a little bit of meat of any kind every day is necessarily bad, but mixing it up is my idea. I also would get a bit tired of eating beef day after day, so maybe that's telling of something. Some days you can just try fish or absolutely no animal and just lots of fruits/some vegetables. I would prefer days off from meat and try potatoes, milk/dairy and even some starches on occasion.

I wouldn't ever follow a diet based solely on lots of red meat/muscle meat and starches.

 

[Taotatoes]

Admittedly I don't look at a lot of bodybuilder photos, but her cheeks looked gaunt to me (her total bodyfat looks to be about zero), compared at least to my mental recollection of the paintings Ray does of women. If compared to other bodybuilders it is as you say, then yeah, that would be good.

Zero body fat for anyone would = death, but yes her body fat is definitely in the 3 to 5% range here, which isn't maintainable long term, that's why fitness competitors have on/off seasons, but in comparison to other female bodybuilders and physique competitors she looks "healthy'ish".

I'm of the opinion that bodybuilding as a hobby without going to extremes can be very healthy vs other choices for sports or fitness activities when done properly, but it's definitely not for every body. Being a professional and seeking to peak for competition like this (which is an art and an exact science) requires obvious use of AAS and other drugs to assist with water retention issues as the body fights against the process. Definitely not a career that anyone should seek to do without weighing the pros/cons.

Anyway, personally speaking I have only ever dieted down to 14-15% bf as a natural (which is fairly easy for me to maintain without too many negatives) and my goal for this current cut is to get down to 16-17% and then bulk back up to 19-20% to maintain next year. My physique goals aren't driven by vanity though, as a lot of my hobbies are very physically demanding and to perform well (especially as I approach my 40's) I require a specific type of conditioning. I'm personally built long and lanky (with very little breast tissue no matter my bf %) which means I maintain low body fat well enough without too many issues for prolonged periods. I care not to try to be curvy or soft or any feminine ideal because personally it's not a good look for me. I tend to look/feel absolute trash when I'm at higher bf levels, so I try to always maintain nearer to my natural set point but wouldn't advise a naturally higher body fat woman whom is either an apple or hourglass to do what I do.

With that said the Vertical diet with a few tweaks has given me the freedom to maintain a high level of energy and less inflammation in comparison to a "typical" bodybuilding diet which I've done in the past. But I'm definitely not dogmatic about anything these days, trial and error is required with everything in life, but you'll definitely never hear of me downing maple syrup or eating liver like other people here. LOL. I'm no hardcore "Peater"...

 

[Insaneacinamide]

Sup ...that's cool to hear Wyatt did well in the Olympia. She looked amazing!

On another note (only a half derail of thread) just saw this video about Brian Shaw changing up nutritionists. From being on the vertical diet. Shows some of the new foods he will incorporate, seems pretty similar just more food choices.

Not sure if it's diet related, but it appears Larry Wheels, Eddie Hall had bicep tears this year. Hafthor had an injury, and I think perhaps Brian did as well. Not sure how normal/often that is to get an injury like that.

Though from some people mentioning here, some of the vertical diet principles are not in line with Peat totally. Such as the amount of calcium to balance the phosphorus.
Also, the vertical diet recommends chicken stock for the gelatin. Though if you google the Kirkland (Costco) brand chicken stock nutrition it seems it's only 2 grams protein per 240ml serving.
Gelatin, stress, longevity

"In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

If a person eats a large serving of meat, it's probably helpful to have 5 or 10 grams of gelatin at approximately the same time, so that the amino acids enter the blood stream in balance."

I think there is a few other mentions Peat has said about gelatin/meat but I cannot find ATM. No clue what his large serving size is, perhaps say 8 ounces. So it looks like Peat is around 10 grams per 8 ounces, and perhaps vertical diet is around 2 grams per 8 ounces.

There is another video of Brian saying this year that from a dexa scan his skeleton was only around 13lbs (his total weight is over 400lbs).
@10:25

Could this be due to the calcium/phosphorus ratio?

 

[Taotatoes]

Hmm, all good thinking points for sure. I have noticed impaired recovery/inflammation if I'm avoiding dairy (only occasionally for bloat/IBS reasons). Thank goodness that's not a frequent need these days as lower lactose dairy makes up about 50% of my daily caloric intake. The vertical diet incorporates more spinach/salmon for calcium instead of dairy but being that it's not as easy to absorb from plant sources I could definitely see the ratios becoming an issue if people don't do much salmon or sardines.

Currently taking no supplements and just focusing on whole foods, haven't noticed a difference without the supps yet really. I bike commuted 100km this week without much DOMS, curious, anyone notice less soreness after heavy training days with glycine/gelatin consumed on a regular basus? We usually eat meat off or boiled with the bones/cartilage, hopefully I get enough that way as I'm kinda done supporting the pseudo/fake supplement industry.