NAC (cysteine) Increases Melanoma Spread

[Sheila]

Hello Amazoniac

I popped into research something and spotted your message, thank you. I also wrote this Supplemental Vitamin B2 - Experiences? a moment ago, in B2, I think I had read before that RP said some b vitamins are stored, so the water-based idea (therefore limited overdose idea) isn't entirely true....

In the Rosacea etc newsletter, he further mentions:

"But in reality, nutritional requirements are strongly influenced by history and present circumstances. For example, when corneal mitochondria have been damaged by riboflavin deficiency, they have been found to subsequently require more than the normal amount of the vitamin to function properly. And the presence of a certain amount of one nutrient often increases or decreases the amount of other nutrients needed."

Thus, and this actually is relevant to our discussions on sulphates/sulphurs, in order to 'assist' (one hopes) repair one needs to use larger amounts than are prudent longer term. The issue is, when to quit without causing problems with everything else.

I admit that the sulphates/sulphurs are no different. And that you have said exactly the same re large amounts of anything. So I am not probably telling you anything new, sorry!

Whilst I am at it though, I may have mentioned that, amongst other country pursuits, I have fledgling and fully grown orchards. When the soil is alive (microbiologically), they need very little in the way of inputs to remain healthy. When the soil is less alive, and the tendency is to 'feed them up' there is a fine line between 'kill or cure'. Best policy is support their environment, their milieu, not lots of inputs. Help where needed (is it needed?) and then back off, don't keep helping.

I am sure there is a lesson or two in there for me.

I hope you are heading towards balance, as ever my best regards,

Sheila

 

[BigChad]

@Amazoniac @haidut

Cysteine and methionine are both regarded as bad aminos, but isn't taurine cysteine bonded with methionine? What makes taurine supplementation safer than cysteine or methionine? Ive also read taurine "protects "against hyperthyroidism which makes me think taurine basically puts a cap on your metabolic rate.

Regarding glycine which brand do you use? Its really odd that magnesium traacs glycinate, messes with my sleep and makes me groggy the next day while aspartate does none of that. I've read glycine can convert to glutamate even more efficiently than aspartate. Glycine is highly regarded but if it converts to glutamate is it better than aspartate or other excitatory aminos. Maybe people with slower metabolisms cant handle glycine or theres an issue with the way glycine supps are made? I cant tolerate magnesium bisglycinate, keeps me up at night, makes me wake up every few hours, groggy the next day. Magnesium aspartate never gives those effects

 

[haidut]

Cysteine and methionine are both regarded as bad aminos, but isn't taurine cysteine bonded with methionine? What makes taurine supplementation safer than cysteine or methionine? Ive also read taurine "protects "against hyperthyroidism which makes me think taurine basically puts a cap on your metabolic rate.

Taurine is not derived from Met, it is derives from Cys and it is VERY different from it in terms of effects. They have largely opposite effects, come to think of it. Tau is a neurotransmitter too and acts on the GABA pathways as agonist. Cys is an antagonist there. Cys suppresses thyroid function, Tau increases it (mostly through activating bile acid synthesis). Cys is reductant/antioxidant while Tau is known to increase the NAD/NADH ratio. Tau lowers both arterial and pulmonary pressure, Cys raises them. And so on, and so on.
Aside from their relation as one being a precursor of the other, they have very little in common.

 

[BigChad]

Taurine is not derived from Met, it is derives from Cys and it is VERY different from it in terms of effects. They have largely opposite effects, come to think of it. Tau is a neurotransmitter too and acts on the GABA pathways as agonist. Cys is an antagonist there. Cys suppresses thyroid function, Tau increases it (mostly through activating bile acid synthesis). Cys is reductant/antioxidant while Tau is known to increase the NAD/NADH ratio. Tau lowers both arterial and pulmonary pressure, Cys raises them. And so on, and so on.
Aside from their relation as one being a precursor of the other, they have very little in common.

Oh i see thats interesting. Do you think 50mg of supplemental NAC a day is enough for it to have an impact on the thyroid and have negative effects. Since usually it seems people are taking 600mg or 1000mg+ nac

 

[Amazoniac]

What makes taurine supplementation safer than cysteine or methionine?

All three are important, but taurine is relatively scarce in the diet (contrary to the others) and is an end-product of their metabolism when synthesized in the body, so if anything goes wrong somewhere along the way, taurine tends to be compromised the most. This can leave the person with insufficient taurine and excess of the others.

Oh i see thats interesting. Do you think 50mg of supplemental NAC a day is enough for it to have an impact on the thyroid and have negative effects. Since usually it seems people are taking 600mg or 1000mg+ nac

The typhoid inhibition appears to be from massive amounts, and that's pretty low. If your diet provides enough methionine, it's better to first try to supply the nutrients needed to use it for other purposes than to get more cysteine.

I don't know for sure what is the effect of acetyl group in this supplement, but it must have an effect beyond preventing its oxidation.

 

[BigChad]

All three are important, but taurine is relatively scarce in the diet (contrary to the others) and is an end-product of their metabolism when synthesized in the body, so if anything goes wrong somewhere along the way, taurine tends to be compromised the most. This can leave the person with insufficient taurine and excess of the others.

The typhoid inhibition appears to be from massive amounts, and that's pretty low. If your diet provides enough methionine, it's better to first try to supply the nutrients needed to use it for other purposes than to get more cysteine.

I don't know for sure what is the effect of acetyl group in this supplement, but it must have an effect beyond preventing its oxidation.

Great, what would be the nutrients needed for methionine use.

Btw i also read that betaine tmg inhibits taurine levels somehow. Seems to be even riskier than beta alanine. I also saw pantothenic acid can interfere with taurine

 

[Amazoniac]

Great, what would be the nutrients needed for methionine use.

Btw i also read that betaine tmg inhibits taurine levels somehow. Seems to be even riskier than beta alanine. I also saw pantothenic acid can interfere with taurine

I would focus on B-vitamins, magnesium and glycine. Some of the enzymes require zinc, but I'm not sure if a deficiency has to be severe to impact them.

On the previous page it was claimed that the average synthesis of glutathione is about 185 mg/d, less than half is actually cysteine, so its needs for this purpose are low (at least in wealthy people), and it can also be recycled. There are other uses as well, such as building proteins, but taking taurine (perhaps with a sulfate salt) should spare it.

Even though choline has a great potential as methyl donor to regenerate methionine, what's often overlooked is that it can only donate ein carbon group directly, the other two (as far as I'm aware) will enter the folate cycle, which happens to be located at the left side of my pictured field. This might increase the need for folate and cobalamin along.

Spoiler: Cycles

 

[Mossy]

Seems to be even riskier than beta alanine.

Could you share this risk of beta alanine, or point me towards the information you’re referring to? Thank you.

 

[BigChad]

Could you share this risk of beta alanine, or point me towards the information you’re referring to? Thank you.

It's mostly regarding beta alanine depleting taurine levels or interfering with taurine absorption. I've seen some people say you need a large amount of beta alanine for it to do this, but I've also read that cooking and freezing meats reduces their taurine content, so I'm unsure if taking beta alanine but not supplementing taurine would be safe long term.

this is the article regarding TMG
Betaine, worth it or not?

 

[BigChad]

I would focus on B-vitamins, magnesium and glycine. Some of the enzymes require zinc, but I'm not sure if a deficiency has to be severe to impact them.

On the previous page it was claimed that the average synthesis of glutathione is about 185 mg/d, less than half is actually cysteine, so its needs for this purpose are low (at least in wealthy people), and it can also be recycled. There are other uses as well, such as building proteins, but taking taurine (perhaps with a sulfate salt) should spare it.

Even though choline has a great potential as methyl donor to regenerate methionine, what's often overlooked is that it can only donate ein carbon group directly, the other two (as far as I'm aware) will enter the folate cycle, which happens to be located at the left side of my pictured field. This might increase the need for folate and cobalamin along.

Spoiler: Cycles

I heard b6 can deplete calcium, copper and iron, which makes sense based on my experience.
I think the b vitamins are helpful if you have excess iron/copper you are trying to get rid of, or if you have a high iron/high copper diet. It seems like a lot of the b vitamins have interactions with minerals (b1 and manganese, C and copper, folate and copper). I developed anemia after a year of supplementing 15mg zinc per day (plus large amounts of the b vitamins), despite eating 12oz of red meat a day. Prior to this I was only using a basic centrum adult multivitamin, vitamin d3, creatine beta alanine, 1g fish oil daily and I had no issues with energy, gaining muscle, etc for 3 years.

 

[Mossy]

It's mostly regarding beta alanine depleting taurine levels or interfering with taurine absorption. I've seen some people say you need a large amount of beta alanine for it to do this, but I've also read that cooking and freezing meats reduces their taurine content, so I'm unsure if taking beta alanine but not supplementing taurine would be safe long term.

this is the article regarding TMG
Betaine, worth it or not?

Thank you. I apprecaite the reply. The last time I took beta-alanine I had severe jaw and teeth pain. It was very strange, but so painful I’ll probably never take it again. Maybe it was simply antagonizing my body’s taurine supplies. I’ll look into that link.

 

[BigChad]

Thank you. I apprecaite the reply. The last time I took beta-alanine I had severe jaw and teeth pain. It was very strange, but so painful I’ll probably never take it again. Maybe it was simply antagonizing my body’s taurine supplies. I’ll look into that link.

what brand did you use and what amount?

 

[Mossy]

what brand did you use and what amount?

Bulk Supplements brand, at 500mg.

 

[BigChad]

Bulk Supplements brand, at 500mg.

thats crazy that 500mg caused that. I took 4 grams a day for years and didn't notice that after ingesting. Maybe it caused some bone pain long term but I don't remember pain specifically in the teeth and jaws. You are sure the pain started with beta alanine and ceased after you stopped it? so it couldn't have been wisdom teeth pain or anything else? too little calcium and too much phosphorus for me seems to cause some jaw and teeth pain

 

[Mossy]

thats crazy that 500mg caused that. I took 4 grams a day for years and didn't notice that after ingesting. Maybe it caused some bone pain long term but I don't remember pain specifically in the teeth and jaws. You are sure the pain started with beta alanine and ceased after you stopped it? so it couldn't have been wisdom teeth pain or anything else? too little calcium and too much phosphorus for me seems to cause some jaw and teeth pain

Yes. It was definitey a freak occurrence. It has never happened to be before. or again—since not taking the beta-alanine. So, I’m pretty certain it was the culprit. I don’t have wisdom teeth—cue the joke: “no wonder you’re so stupid”. At least I don’t have any visible.

 

[Amazoniac]

[Healthy humans] make about 185 mg of glutathione per day.

"It is clear that a change in the dietary availability of cyst(e)ine and its precursor, methionine, can modulate the rate of whole blood GSH synthesis in healthy adults. Although this is the first demonstration in humans that a specific restriction of SAA intake over a relatively short period alters GSH synthesis, the extent to which our findings reflect altered rates of GSH synthesis in other organs and tissues or how acute the response of the GSH machinery is to an altered substrate intake cannot be determined from this study. It might be useful, however, to indicate that an ASR [adsolute synthesis rate] for whole blood glutathione synthesis of 750 µmol/(liter*day) is roughly equivalent to a rate of 3 µmol/(kg*h), assuming that blood volume accounts for 8% body weight in a 75-kg subject. This latter rate compares with an endogenous GSH disappearance rate of about 25 µmol/(kg*h) based either on the plasma pharmacokinetics of an administered bolus of glutathione (25) and indirectly from an evaluation of plasma cysteine kinetics before and after i.v. administration of glutathione (26). Therefore, whole blood, and presumably mainly erythrocyte, glutathione synthesis may account for some 10% of whole body synthesis. [¿]"

Spoiler

Your message reminded me to ask you: how did you arrive on the figure quoted and why are we relying on bloody glutathione?


Reposting this here for convenience:

- The Metabolic Capacity For Glycine Biosynthesis Does Not Satisfy The Need For Collagen Synthesis

"The glutathione turnover rate (oxidation–reduction cycle) has been determined in humans in vivo as 30 micromol/(kg·hr) (Fukagawa et al. 1996), i.e. 50 mmol/day for a 70 kg human; and de novo glutathione synthesis, assayed by the conversion of methionine to cysteine in the route, was estimated to be about 15% of this flux, 85% of the cysteine being, therefore, recycled. Assuming the same recycling rate for glycine gives a net daily glycine expenditure of 7.5 mmol."​

That's about 2.3 g/d of glutathione: ~550 mg glycine and ~900 mg cysteine.

 

[Amazoniac]

Despite the lack of nutrition (pyridoxine, cobalamin, zinc and so on), a combination of gelatin/collagen and egg whites can yield a decent amino acid profile, they's fairly digestible.

Egg whites are rich in the sulfur-containing amino acids (cysteine in particular) and provide the missing BCAA. It's a matter of adjusting how much of each food is desirable.
- Amino Acid Content And Profile Of Some Proteinaceous Foods


Starting from the amino acid profile of 100 g of the foods in question (included below), new columns was created in a spreadsheet, dividing the amino acid content of each food by its total protein content to obtain 'g AA / g protein'.

​

Spoiler

​

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Spoiler: Raw data

Column A​

-​

tryptophan​

threonine​

isoleucine​

leucine​

lysine​

methionine​

cysteine​

phenylalanine​

tyrosine​

valine​

arginine​

histidine​

alanine​

aspartic acid​

glutamic acid​

glycine​

proline​

serine​

total protein per 100 g​

​

Column B​

egg white​

0,125​

0,449​

0,661​

1,016​

0,806​

0,399​

0,287​

0,686​

0,457​

0,809​

0,648​

0,290​

0,704​

1,220​

1,550​

0,413​

0,435​

0,798​

10,900​

​

Column C​

gelatin​

0,000​

1,475​

1,158​

2,454​

3,460​

0,606​

0,000​

1,737​

0,303​

2,081​

6,616​

0,662​

8,009​

5,265​

8,753​

19,049​

12,295​

2,605​

85,600​

​

Column D​

beef 90% lean​

0,102​

0,775​

0,885​

1,560​

1,658​

0,515​

0,206​

0,781​

0,616​

0,983​

1,302​

0,650​

1,253​

1,802​

3,000​

1,358​

1,020​

0,801​

20,000​

​

Column E​

skim milk​

0,043​

0,144​

0,174​

0,319​

0,282​

0,088​

0,021​

0,175​

0,170​

0,221​

0,096​

0,102​

0,114​

0,288​

0,757​

0,067​

0,332​

0,203​

3,370​

​

​

​

​

​

Then, more new columns to multiply the values by a desired protein content to make it easier to work with by avoiding fractions. I used 20 g of protein for beef and milch, 15 g of protein for gelatin and 10 g for egg whites (stack'd).

​

Spoiler

Glutathione. ​

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The protein content of gelatin/collagen is about 90%. A tablespoon provides around 10 g of gelatin or 5 g of hydrolyzed collagen.​

​

The protein content of egg whites is about 10%. The whites are responsible for 60% of an egg's weight (that's around 50 g).​

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- Parts of an egg | Ali Datu​

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[Amazoniac]

- The Science Behind Whipping Egg Whites in Copper Bowls
- Why whip egg whites in copper bowls?
- The Role of Copper in Protein Foams

- The Generative Energy

 

[Amazoniac]

Saving these predicted articles for later:
- The thiol of human serum albumin: Acidity, microenvironment and mechanistic insights on its oxidation to sulfenic acid
- The thiol pool in human plasma: The central contribution of albumin to redox processes
- Fatty acids binding to human serum albumin: Changes of reactivity and glycation level of Cysteine-34 free thiol group with methylglyoxal

 

[Amazoniac]

- Glutathione Redox Control of Asthma: From Molecular Mechanisms to Therapeutic Opportunities