Mycircadianclock.org - Time Restricted Feeding(eating During Daylight)

[superhuman]

I was just listening to the podcast of Dr Rhonda Patrick and the last episodes she had this science guy that has studied what effect light and eating has in terms of all metabolic effects, obesity etc etc.

Really cool to see that if they focused on eating during the daylight and restrict the eating window to that for 8-12 hours during the day so when you wake up, eat a meal and 8-12 hours from that. So you dont eat in the evening.

The benefits where really cool and he talked about it increasing NAD+ and alot of positive stuff in terms of what RP talks about. The calories and everything was the same but when they ate during the day they lost fat, felt better and all that.

He also mentioned a new study that showed that when Melatonin was released it competed and inhibited insulin secretion so that was also part of why it was bad to eat in the evening and in terms of light and all that jazz. Its a cool listen and also cool website to check out.

I was wondering if any of you guys have experienced with this, in terms of eating the majority of food/calories earlier in the day? i know RP also talks about digestion and everything being the best during daytime.

 

[Makrosky]

What I know for sure is that after 7pm, the latter in the day I have dinner (sometimes as late as 11pm) the worst it is digested.

Who was the USA MD who coined the famous motto "Eat breakfast like a King, lunch like a prince and dinner as a poor". Or something like that. I'm paraphrasing.

This has been known in traditional cultures since the beginning anyway.

Interesting to know the scientific implications.

 

[tyw]

Meh, we can talk about all the mechanics regarding this all day .....

Yeah yeah, insulin sensitivity is greater in the morning, but what about post exercise partitioning?

Yeah, some people say that NAD+ dependent CLOCK and BMAL genes are affected by when you eat food, but they never distinguish between organs (which sometimes show zero pattern whatsoever, especially in the liver).

Some say that eating late at night suppresses melatonin, but ignore the data which also shows no effect in some people.

For every extreme case like me, who literally only does well eating when the sun in up (winter really destroys me), I find another person who absolutely doesn't feel hungry in the morning, and in fact has worst cortisol profiles (actual testing was done) by eating the majority of their calories during breakfast instead of dinner ....

There are tons of people who do better having some carbs at dinner time, and it gives them better sleep. Some people do better with a high protein meal at dinner, and then sleep better, recover better, and wake up ready to crush the day ..... I on the other hand, get completely wrecked by eating after dark, but can eat all sorts of bull**** during the day, and not suffer any negative consequences

Sidenote: some people will know that I have a history of being one of the "leading members" in the Kruse community. There, I have witnessed literally a 50/50 split amongst responders to his Leptin Reset protocol, which calls for a large protein-rich breakfast upon sunrise. Extreme results follow -- some recover very well, others get completely wrecked ..... (and I mean completely wrecked, like cases of anxiety attacks and PCOS symptoms galore. Women suffer the most variance ....)​

As a general rule, yes, try to eat most of your calories during day time hours. If that doesn't work, try something else

This is a topic where you should trust your own experimentation instead of the scientific mechanics (they can literally be spun in any direction regarding this particular topic).

If you're really pedantic, go do some melatonin and cortisol testing with various dietary timing protocols and see what works best for you. Whatever you do, make sure that you're converging upon your own protocol, and not some other person's prescription.

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[Birdie]

Yes, I was one of those who was ruined for quite a while trying the Kruse plan.

I think RP talks about finishing your protein before sundown, but continuing carbs. I forget his general take on the fat timing, but for me, better to have very little fat in the evening. Too much cheese, more than a tiny bit at bedtime, and I'll have trouble. A milk drink works better.

Oh, and that intermittent fasting with certain hours for food doesn't work at all for me. I eat more at breakfast, but save part of it to have an hour later... Then, I eat all day. I couldn't have lost my extra weight just eating during the daylight. What helps me is to not eat stimulating foods like rice flour pancakes. The general RP eating quells my cravings...

 

[Mufasa]

I tried things like thus, but I jist cannot fall asleep having my latest meal at 8pm.

I then go eat in the middle of the night snd fall immediately asleep.

I prefer having a meal at 22pm

 

[superhuman]

@tyw i agree with everything you are saying but still.

The test they did was just focusing on that aspect and they toyed around with all different diets and it had the positive effect no matter what. Also when calories where being equal they lost more fat etc etc maintain muscle.

In regards to humans we have seen in studies that feeding is also a big trigger in terms of hormonal outputs. So if a guy is used to eating late night and no breakfast etc the hormones will get used and adapt to that schedule so thats why you need to be doing the things for a while before actually seeing the effect manifest.

 

[tyw]

@superhuman : The "test" you're referring to I assume is the mycircadianclock set of tests? If so, I won't comment, since it's an ongoing effort which relies on self-reporting (and all it's limitations)

Circadian rhythms are so complicated, and there are so many different inputs and outputs, that I do not trust anything but experimentation right now

This is not saying to not care about the mechanics. Rather, it is to be aware of potential mechanics that affect circadian rhythms, and then experiment accordingly.

Example: Blue light suppresses melatonin. True, but for how long?

There is research that shows that many young people do not get their melatonin affected by blue light just before bed, whereas older people (and by extension, sicker people) see melatonin depressed for hours after.

There is research showing that light exposure in the middle of the night (say waking up to go to the bathroom) ensures that melatonin never reaches its peak once again. Watch out for this, and see if installing red lights help.

Then I know people whom are not affected by light at all ....

And then I know another person who had a genetic defect in melatonin production, who passed it on to their daughter, and resulting in stunted growth for a period. I took two really good doctors (whom I'm friends with) some digging in the literature, and then coming to the conclusion that melatonin supplementation was the route to go. The little girl started sleeping much better, and grew 2 inches in 3 months :).

That sort of variation to circadian sensitivity will pervade every single aspect of biology .... I find it impossible to give direct prescriptions. Only general rules of thumb can be given.

Another example: Caffeine may suppress Total Adenine Nucleotide accumulation, and prevent sleep onset.

That's a mechanic that is affect circadian control, but clearly there are many many people who drink that substance right before bed with zero impact on sleep quality whatsoever (whereas both me and my Dad get wrecked by nighttime caffeine).

And BTW, I tried Leangains style intermittent fasting for quite awhile (2009 to 2010), eating from 12pm to 8pm. I never adapted . My biology just wants food intake to be during daylight hours.

I therefore really do not know what exactly causes such entrainment patterns to occur, and which factors are the biggest ones for a particular person.

I know my own most important inputs, and that would be Light. Everything else seems secondary -- Some people need a wind-down relaxing period before bed, I don't. Some people need to control the temperature of their environment for sleep, I don't. Some people need to worry about dampening excessive noise in their environment, I don't. For me, it's just "make sure you got your eye mask".

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And yes, I am aware that the research is tending towards "most people" being more suited to eating during the day. And like I said, this is something to be aware of, and if it resonates with you, something like a 4-week daytime-only eating experiment may be performed.

But I will definitely caution against advice that is based solely on research and/or mechanics which we don't even know can generalise to all people.

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[superhuman]

@tyw : get you. Oh no the test i refer to or study that mycircadian did is that the only thing they controlled in mice but also the few human studies they have done is just the time restricted feeding window. So just eating 12-8 hours during daylight, thats it. Diet or anything else they did not focus on. They just wanted to control that variable. And thats what got all the positive results all over, no matter the diets, calories etc etc. when it being equal to the other control group that ate the same but whenever.

 

[tyw]

@superhuman You'll need to link me to actual studies There are many out there, and I do not know which one you are referring to.

The most famous one is probably this mice study -- http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(12)00189-1

Note how the researchers are very clear to specify that benefits were significant on a "High Fat Diet", which if you look at the procedures is basically a 61% fat, high PUFA diet -- http://www.cell.com/action/showExperimentalProcedures?pii=S1550-4131(12)00189-1

Actual calorie intake was Higher on the Ad-libitum, High Fat diet, and if you look at the normal chow diet (which was 13% fat, mostly PUFA), you'll see little difference, though there is a slight advantage in the Time-restricted normal diet vs ad libitum normal diet.

I had a weird and unsubstantiated feeling that circadian factors affect fat metabolism a lot more than in did carbohydrate metabolism.
The mechanism seemed to go both ways as well -- eg: fat intake could halt Zietgeiber clocks, and halting those clocks switched metabolism more so toward fatty acid oxidation. It's almost like a fatty acid dominant metabolism is a "don't change the status quo" metabolism


But in general, I believe that eating during the natural photoperiod that the organism is "meant to be exposed" to is the best place to start experimentation from.

And again, I've seen so many exceptions to the rule, that people should watch their own results carefully, and not be dogmatic about magic circadian fixes.

Also ensure that this isn't a short term effect -- there are many people who do time-restricted feeding / intermittent fasting, and find it very much easier to reduce caloric content, lose weight, and improve metabolic parameters just via weight loss alone. Those results should be attributed to the weight loss and adherence factors, and not necessarily the shift in eating patterns.

After some experimentation, patterns will emerge, and one should watch out for those patterns. This is a slow process -- it took me something like 6 years of experimenting to finally settle upon my current eating schedule and dietary composition.

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On a more macro scale Bill Lagakos' post on seasonal melatonin cycling is good --
The incredible camping experiment, circadian proper

But ItsTheWoooo's comments on that post are better -- The incredible camping experiment, circadian proper

This is where human circadian mechanics are much more complicated than mice.

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