My Starch Free And Zero Fiber Experiment

Mito

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
2,554
@Hans
Fiber tends to bind bile acids increasing their clearance through feces. In theory a no fiber diet will result in more bile acids being reabsorbed and therefore causing some down regulation of LDL receptor activity in the liver. Do you expect your blood cholesterol to increase on your no fiber diet?
 
OP
Hans

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
@Hans
Fiber tends to bind bile acids increasing their clearance through feces. In theory a no fiber diet will result in more bile acids being reabsorbed and therefore causing some down regulation of LDL receptor activity in the liver. Do you expect your blood cholesterol to increase on your no fiber diet?
No that's not something I'm worried about.
Cholesterol-lowering effects of dietary fiber: a meta-analysis
"Various soluble fibers reduce total and LDL cholesterol by similar amounts. The effect is small within the practical range of intake. For example, 3 g soluble fiber from oats (3 servings of oatmeal, 28 g each) can decrease total and LDL cholesterol by <0.13 mmol/L. Increasing soluble fiber can make only a small contribution to dietary therapy to lower cholesterol."

The cholesterol myth had already been debunked. Elevated LDL isn't necessarily an issue if inflammation is low.
 

Mito

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
2,554
No that's not something I'm worried about.
Cholesterol-lowering effects of dietary fiber: a meta-analysis
"Various soluble fibers reduce total and LDL cholesterol by similar amounts. The effect is small within the practical range of intake. For example, 3 g soluble fiber from oats (3 servings of oatmeal, 28 g each) can decrease total and LDL cholesterol by <0.13 mmol/L. Increasing soluble fiber can make only a small contribution to dietary therapy to lower cholesterol."

The cholesterol myth had already been debunked. Elevated LDL isn't necessarily an issue if inflammation is low.
It would be interesting to see what happens to inflammation and cholesterol blood markers after a prolonged starch/fiber free diet. Presumably the inflammation markers would go down due to decreased endotoxin.
 
OP
Hans

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
It would be interesting to see what happens to inflammation and cholesterol blood markers after a prolonged starch/fiber free diet. Presumably the inflammation markers would go down due to decreased endotoxin.
Paul Saladino is one example, although he is a carnivore, which is not what I do. His LDL is sky high, but his arterial calcification is zero.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Member Zpol had some good ideas and comments about a No Starch Diet, so I will link them here, for anyone interested-

I am doing zero starch, low fat (about 30% from calories). Been doing this for about a year. This one diet modification changed my life (I was on the verge of loosing my ability to work, and getting prescribed a slew of dangerous pharmaceuticals). I did not loose weight doing this diet so that's bonus (I also can't afford to loose any weight).


Yes to eliminating all those except cooked carrots (although they are best eaten raw for the antiseptic and anti-estrogen effects).
You can check out the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (it's a popular zero-starch diet plan for people with bowel inflammation) for a 'legal/illegal' list of what is a starch and what isn't. Only use the list to see which foods are starchy and which aren't, ignore the rest of the diet plan.

I mainly use bananas and dates to feel satiated, no problems with that at all. Might be a good idea to count calories and macros in the beginning so you don't accidentally undereat.

Here's my post on the history of starch-free diets and my thoughts...



Here's what I typically eat (I haven't reintroduced dairy yet)...
I start the day with a couple salted bananas (organic, extremely ripe, I try for different varieties than the industrialized cavendish whenever possible), coffee, either Impower PRO Amino capsules or my own mix of Amino Acids + BCAA's (I'd do collagen or gelatin but I get endotoxin effects from them), later I have two salted eggs and a large OJ (Uncle Matt's) plus more Amino Acids + BCAA, then for lunch a low fat beef stew or ground beef dish (containing glycine or bone broth) with extremely well cooked veg (celery, kale, collards, italian parsley, etc, basically ones that are high in vit K and minerals), salted dates or raisins which I usually blend up with some cocoa powder, then an afternoon snack an apple (organic, extremely ripe only) plus a Wild Zora lamb snack or Salt&Pepper Mighty bar plus coffee (I'm usually on the go in the afternoon so this snack portable but maybe not the best), then dinner, carrot salad, bone broth, some kind of low fat meat or fish with a little coconut oil or ghee, OJ or Mexican Coke, Glycine, then an evening snack, usually carrot sticks dipped in Coconut Oil mayo and leftover meat from dinner, glass of grape juice mixed with Gerolsteiner water or Nature's Charm caramel sauce on apples for a treat, usually more bananas and coffee unless I'm full. I try to maintain roughly a 40% carb/30% protein /30% fat macro ratio and never ever let my blood sugar get low. I keep my purse, car, work desk, and to-go bags, stocked with surf sweets gummi bears, meat bars, apples, and/or raisins, honey lozenges.

The biggest challenge in my opinion was learning to cook meat protein sources in a low fat way since I still can't do dairy (flares up psoriasis for me). The Amino Acid + BCAA supplements really help in that regard. I can fill up on fruit and take a tablespoon or so of AA's, add in a large mug of fat-free bone broth and i'm good for at least 3 hours. When I say a lot of fruit, it's a lot more fruit than you would think.

I would like to add that low starch (even small amounts of well cooked potatoes) did not have any beneficial effect for me. Eliminating starch entirely is what finally worked. I had severe bowel inflammation though, people who are generally healthy may not have to go that far.

This was a Quote within that Quote, which doesn't show up when Quoted, so here it is-

When I think about a zero starch diet, I think about Dr. Sydney Haas and Elaine Gottschall. Ray Peat comes to mind only as an afterthought because from what I have researched the aforementioned two have more supporting information and experience implementing a zero starch diet. Ray Peat has additional supporting information on the topic which is helpful and may be just what some people need to be confident enough to self test the approach. Dr. Haas (a NY based pediatrician) could be considered the pioneer of the starch free diet as he started prescribing the diet in 1951 and since has treated over 600 children with Celiac, UC, and Crohn's. He called it the 'banana diet' at the time since he observed that bananas made a good replacement for other typical starchy foods. He also thought the high fruit sugar content of bananas was valuable and even healing for the children he was treating since they often came to him emaciated, malnourished, and in need of lots of calories from sugar. He specified that the bananas must, absolutely must, be extremely ripe. The rest of the diet he prescribed was in line with RP suggestions as well; it was a low fat, high carb, easy to digest diet that consisted of albumin milk, pot cheese, bananas, oranges, vegetables, gelatin, and meat.

He was disheartened when the research into Celiac shifted to indicate gluten as the main inflammatory constituent of wheat and continued to insist it is the starch component that is the problem. He considered research into gluten a "disservice." Dr. Haas treated over 600 children during his practice and worked into his 90's. Much of his research was published in a book called 'Management of Celiac Disease' which he co-authored with his son (not sure how much of it is peer reviewed since can't get hold of it). Elaine Gottschall took the starch free diet to another level, in some ways good and some ways bad. She did make a list of legal and illegal foods and emphasized strict avoidance of additives including thickeners and flow agents (carrageenan, gums, etc). But unfortunately added in some things that aren't so great like nut butters for example and lessened the emphasis on high fruit carb consumption. Her diet is less strict than Dr. Haas but is more inclusive of hard to digest things like vegetables and even some beans. But it's still effective for many people due to it being zero starch.
Link to research can be found here.

Personally, zero starch has saved my life. I have Celiac and I was degenerating fast, my organs weren't functioning, my mind was waning, I thought I would not survive and was too sick to even care. At the time I was following Peat principles as much as possible but avoiding foods that were allergenic to me specifically and could barely keep food down (I was strict GF already for years). Oddly, well cooked starches seemed to be good for me at the time, my temps would go up and my stomach would not hurt any worse than normal when I ate a bowl of well cooked potatoes or rice slathered in butter. I was very mislead by this. I had reduced this meal to evenings only so to maximize high protein and OJ in the daytime meals, but even this small amount of starch per day was keeping me in the state of inflammation and high endotoxin. After I cut that out my health reversed and now I'm getting better every day. A couple days after I quit starch I had a drastic decline in the stomach pain I experienced everyday for years. About a week in, that pain came back with a vengeance and I collapsed on my kitchen floor. My boyfriend said that maybe it's a 'healing crisis' or 'Herximer reaction' and I decided wait till morning and then decide if I should go to urgent care. The next day, better! And continually better since that day. That was about 7 months ago and now I'm back working my normal shift at work and hanging with family and friends.

Inspired by this, I got some bananas to see if they would make a nice side dish, instead of potatoes. And pineapple chunks as well. Seem to be two fruits that would be good cooked with meat.
 
Last edited:

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Thanks for sharing your perspective. How long were you doing low VA for?

Honestly I don't know what to make of the whole vitamin A poisoning theory... I have been way overdoing VA in the past and some of my symptoms line up with other people on Grants forum and here on RPF. But then again, you could probably correlate any symptom to hypervitaminosis A, and my issues could just be something entirely else.

Seems like some people get great results from VA detox, while others are going around in circles for months and years. Anyways I couldn't continue with the meat/rice/beans diet because I felt like death was nearing. I was inspired by @Blossom posts so I think I'll be doing a carnivore'ish diet still relatively low in VA.

Sorry, I don't think I responded to this. I tried Low VA for about 3 months. Did nothing for me, and made some thing worse. I had taken high doses of vitamin A in the past (up to 100,000 IU a day for months), so thought it might be worth a try. Bottom line, it was a fail for me. I would not try Low VA again, but personally, I would indeed take 100,000 IU of Vitamin A a day. But that's just me.

Everyone who seems to have success with it either has a history with Accutane, or an Auto-Immune condition, or both. Even then, the best results seem to be as an intervention diet, maybe 18-36 months or so. Even some of the studies Grant posted indicated that this time frame might be about right, for those who the Low/No A diet can work for.
 

yashi

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2020
Messages
91
I had taken high doses of vitamin A in the past (up to 100,000 IU a day for months)
Did you notice any effects from the high vitamin A? I remember peat once saying in an interview that he knows of a paper where there was a linear relationship for increasing vitamin A intake and improvement of well-being of some kind, upto 100k IU a day of vitamin A.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Did you notice any effects from the high vitamin A? I remember peat once saying in an interview that he knows of a paper where there was a linear relationship for increasing vitamin A intake and improvement of well-being of some kind, upto 100k IU a day of vitamin A.

I didn't notice any direct effects, but when I look back at the time I was taking that amount, it was a very good time in my life in several aspects, including weight, health, and overall positive attitude. There were other good things going on at that time, but it certainly didn't hurt, and I would suspect that the high A helped in those regards.
 

Vegancrossfit

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
170
Hey man. Fatty ground beef, low fat milk, fruit juice and honey. If you want to up calories easily, add fat.

Been tweaking again and again and I’ve come down to this. Whole milk (for me), fruit juices, beef. It’s an insanely short grocery list! I dig it.
 

gaze

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
2,270
Do you guys usually eat the beef with milk and honey? I prefer eating a lot of carbs with meat but try to avoid drinking orange juice with it. Grape juice might be a decent option for the beef meals
 
OP
Hans

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
Been tweaking again and again and I’ve come down to this. Whole milk (for me), fruit juices, beef. It’s an insanely short grocery list! I dig it.
Lol, yeah, but it works great. Simplicity for the win.
Do you guys usually eat the beef with milk and honey? I prefer eating a lot of carbs with meat but try to avoid drinking orange juice with it. Grape juice might be a decent option for the beef meals
Yeah, I always have some carbs with my meat. Milk and honey mostly, and sometimes fruit juice as well. Pineapple juice can help with protein digestion due to bromelain.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Do you guys usually eat the beef with milk and honey? I prefer eating a lot of carbs with meat but try to avoid drinking orange juice with it. Grape juice might be a decent option for the beef meals

I've been drinking juice or a soda. This week, I'm experimenting cooking bananas (riper, the better) and pineapple as side dishes. I tend to agree with Hans, keeping things simpler is better, but there is this nagging part of me that wants some side dish options for at least some meals. If I can satisfy that side, I could very well see myself doing this long term.

Beef, bananas, cheese and onions was quite good. Better than potatoes, even.
 

Jem Oz

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
405
Going to try zero starch for a spell. I have absolutely no digestive issues, which believe me I am super grateful for, because I had knives in my belly for years (completely resolved after killing off H. Pylori monster and healing gastritis). But, I do get joint pain and skin rashes, plus cold-like symptoms a few times a week, and I'm going to see if starch is the culprit. Exciting times.
 

Jem Oz

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
405
How did you do it?
The standard MSM H. Pylori eradication protocol - huge but brief dose of 2 antibiotics. To be honest, I can't be sure if the digestive improvement is because of killing off the bacteria or a more broad antibiotic benefit. But either way, it's far and away the biggest health improvement I've had probably ever.

I'd strongly recommend people with digestive distress experiment with antibiotics. And don't be afraid of very high doses for a week. I have a feeling what I did was like a digestive reset.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
I prefer eating a lot of carbs with meat but try to avoid drinking orange juice with it.

FYI, if you are avoiding OJ because of the idea that "Vitamin C enhances iron absorption," that only effects non-heme iron, not heme iron found in beef. And in truth, it was really only demonstrated in fortified iron, not even natural non-heme iron found in something like spinach.

That idea was also only found in single meal challenge studies anyway. Longer term studies where they had people take supplemental vitamin C with meals (1 gram C with two meals per day), the effect on ferritin, and thus, body iron stores was all over the place. The people with the highest starting ferritin actually saw big reductions, with the biggest going from like 200 to 47 (doing from memory, so figures could be a bit off).
 

gaze

Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
2,270
FYI, if you are avoiding OJ because of the idea that "Vitamin C enhances iron absorption," that only effects non-heme iron, not heme iron found in beef. And in truth, it was really only demonstrated in fortified iron, not even natural non-heme iron found in something like spinach.

That idea was also only found in single meal challenge studies anyway. Longer term studies where they had people take supplemental vitamin C with meals (1 gram C with two meals per day), the effect on ferritin, and thus, body iron stores was all over the place. The people with the highest starting ferritin actually saw big reductions, with the biggest going from like 200 to 47 (doing from memory, so figures could be a bit off).

That’s interesting. Thanks for the tip. so I assume coffee doesn’t effect heme iron absorption either?
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
That’s interesting. Thanks for the tip. so I assume coffee doesn’t effect heme iron absorption either?

I don't think it does, but it probably doesn't hurt, either. The only thing that supposedly blocks both heme and non-heme iron absorption is calcium.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
So, I've been doing this for a week, and been really enjoying it. I tried a no-starch diet before (a couple times), and found it unsatisfying, or experiencing hypo symptoms like feeling cold and week. I think I was either trying to combine other interventions at the time, or relying too much on cottage cheese as a meal at work, and/or using too many liquids, and/or not getting enough fat.

This time, MUCH better!

The past week I have had better mood and energy than since the whole COVID nonsense began. Feeling better than I have in months! I was using a lot of potatoes, and I noticed a slight decline in mood and energy over time, plus I was drinking more. I didn't drink at all this past week (so that certainly could have been part of it), but also, didn't really feel like drinking, either. No cravings for alcohol, none for starch either.

I've also noticed that my face looks better, like younger, fuller and more energetic, similar to after bag breathing CO2. This is very subjective, of course, but I did notice it.

I'm relying more on ground beef this time. Diet looks similar in structure to what CLASH and Hans have detailed, while using foods that Kreeese detailed in his original threads on this, along with some things I'm trying that Zpol mentioned above.

No real word on digestion or weight loss yet.

Some early days of trying this, I found myself almost ravenous for more beef. I might not have been eating near enough protein, or even food in general. Some days (before this week), I suspected I might be suffering from anhedonia, and a feeling like "the real me" was trapped behind thick plexiglass, unable to communicate with the real world. I suspected higher serotonin, and wondered if I was succumbing to a zombie like state, or if this is what people on SSRIs felt most of the time.

Regardless, things improved dramatically in both the mood and energy area, and temps have also been very good, and more consistent than when I was eating starch. I do plan on making this the default way of eating going forward.
 
OP
Hans

Hans

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
5,856
So, I've been doing this for a week, and been really enjoying it. I tried a no-starch diet before (a couple times), and found it unsatisfying, or experiencing hypo symptoms like feeling cold and week. I think I was either trying to combine other interventions at the time, or relying too much on cottage cheese as a meal at work, and/or using too many liquids, and/or not getting enough fat.

This time, MUCH better!

The past week I have had better mood and energy than since the whole COVID nonsense began. Feeling better than I have in months! I was using a lot of potatoes, and I noticed a slight decline in mood and energy over time, plus I was drinking more. I didn't drink at all this past week (so that certainly could have been part of it), but also, didn't really feel like drinking, either. No cravings for alcohol, none for starch either.

I've also noticed that my face looks better, like younger, fuller and more energetic, similar to after bag breathing CO2. This is very subjective, of course, but I did notice it.

I'm relying more on ground beef this time. Diet looks similar in structure to what CLASH and Hans have detailed, while using foods that Kreeese detailed in his original threads on this, along with some things I'm trying that Zpol mentioned above.

No real word on digestion or weight loss yet.

Some early days of trying this, I found myself almost ravenous for more beef. I might not have been eating near enough protein, or even food in general. Some days (before this week), I suspected I might be suffering from anhedonia, and a feeling like "the real me" was trapped behind thick plexiglass, unable to communicate with the real world. I suspected higher serotonin, and wondered if I was succumbing to a zombie like state, or if this is what people on SSRIs felt most of the time.

Regardless, things improved dramatically in both the mood and energy area, and temps have also been very good, and more consistent than when I was eating starch. I do plan on making this the default way of eating going forward.
Awesome man. One thing that I've found is that is a substantial improvement in mood since cutting out starch and fiber. If I eat low starch and some fiber I feel much more irritated and prone to cravings, however on a starch and fiber-free diet my mood is very stable and good and I experience no cravings.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom