My Starch Free And Zero Fiber Experiment

[PxD]

Adding my 2 cents here... I've been doing a low/no starch, low fiber diet (with some exceptions, e.g. Friday nights are fajita nights with the family) over the past couple of weeks and I'm noticing a difference.

The routine daily diet consists of 1% milk, a variety of fruit, beef, gelatin, lean chicken, yogurt, honey, and occasionally there are other odds and ends like bacon, liver, oysters, carrots, eggs, bell peppers, and a bit of home made ice cream. I also take an activated charcoal pill in the morning, 3-4x a week.

I'm now getting the mythical ghost wipe once or twice a day and after breakfast (milk with honey and gelatin, oranges) I notice that 1) I'm fully satiated until lunch time, around noon (before, I would get hungry by 10:30), 2) my energy levels are high and even all morning, and 3) my body is warm and I feel mentally "good". I've also noticed that my body temperature seems to rise and fall in tandem with my hunger levels. As soon as I start getting hungry for the next meal, my hands and skin become cold and my energy levels start to decline, and once I refeed with carbs I warm back up and perk up again within 20-30 minutes of eating. The effect is noticeable, and it wasn't so suddenly noticeable on my old way of eating.

Another change that this diet is making to my prior way of eating is that my macros have changed a lot. I didn't realize this for a long time until I started keeping track of my food consumption on Cronometer, but the way I was eating for the past 10-15 years (even after I started Peating in 2018) meant I was eating a higher protein, higher fat, lower carb diet. I would normally consume under 200g of carbs per day, while consuming at least 130g of fats, and 140g-200g of protein. I only noticed this once I started keeping track of my food intake in detail, and it took me by surprise because I thought I had been getting a lot more carbs than I actually was, and less fat and protein than I actually was. At least I was managing my PUFA intake pretty well at around of 2% of daily calories. On average 45-50% of my daily calories were coming from fats.

I'm now shooting for more like 300g of carbs daily, while fats are cut down to <60g. Protein intake is down slightly, around 120g-140g. This gives me a rough 3:1 carb:protein ratio, and a 2:1 protein:fats ratio.

I feel that it's going well so far, and am looking forward to seeing how it plays out in the following weeks.

 

[gaze]

Adding my 2 cents here... I've been doing a low/no starch, low fiber diet (with some exceptions, e.g. Friday nights are fajita nights with the family) over the past couple of weeks and I'm noticing a difference.

The routine daily diet consists of 1% milk, a variety of fruit, beef, gelatin, lean chicken, yogurt, honey, and occasionally there are other odds and ends like bacon, liver, oysters, carrots, eggs, bell peppers, and a bit of home made ice cream. I also take an activated charcoal pill in the morning, 3-4x a week.

I'm now getting the mythical ghost wipe once or twice a day and after breakfast (milk with honey and gelatin, oranges) I notice that 1) I'm fully satiated until lunch time, around noon (before, I would get hungry by 10:30), 2) my energy levels are high and even all morning, and 3) my body is warm and I feel mentally "good". I've also noticed that my body temperature seems to rise and fall in tandem with my hunger levels. As soon as I start getting hungry for the next meal, my hands and skin become cold and my energy levels start to decline, and once I refeed with carbs I warm back up and perk up again within 20-30 minutes of eating. The effect is noticeable, and it wasn't so suddenly noticeable on my old way of eating.

Another change that this diet is making to my prior way of eating is that my macros have changed a lot. I didn't realize this for a long time until I started keeping track of my food consumption on Cronometer, but the way I was eating for the past 10-15 years (even after I started Peating in 2018) meant I was eating a higher protein, higher fat, lower carb diet. I would normally consume under 200g of carbs per day, while consuming at least 130g of fats, and 140g-200g of protein. I only noticed this once I started keeping track of my food intake in detail, and it took me by surprise because I thought I had been getting a lot more carbs than I actually was, and less fat and protein than I actually was. At least I was managing my PUFA intake pretty well at around of 2% of daily calories. On average 45-50% of my daily calories were coming from fats.

I'm now shooting for more like 300g of carbs daily, while fats are cut down to <60g. Protein intake is down slightly, around 120g-140g. This gives me a rough 3:1 carb:protein ratio, and a 2:1 protein:fats ratio.

I feel that it's going well so far, and am looking forward to seeing how it plays out in the following weeks.

what type of fruits have been working good for you? Any challenge transitioning to higher carb lower fat?

 

[Hans]

@Hans do you have any insight on b vitamin retention with starch vs sugar? I know Rays mentioned sugar helps mineral balance but the metabolic rate increase from sugar uses up the Bs faster right, comparative to starch?

There is some evidence that people who consume sugar have less B-vitamins, however, that can be because they consume less B-vitamins in the first place, due to sugar having no B-vitamins.

 

[PxD]

what type of fruits have been working good for you? Any challenge transitioning to higher carb lower fat?

My go-to are oranges but we keep a wide variety in the house; mangoes, strawberries, blackberries, peaches, plums, kiwis, apples. I generally avoid bananas. I haven’t had any challenge in the dietary transition. If anything, I’ve seen immediate improvements.

 

[snacks]

People eating a lot of starches bloat more and retain more water and mistake it for muscle growth. There was a study in resistant trained men that found that non-keto was better for muscle growth, but it could just have been more water in the muscle. I definitely don't recommend a keto diet for bulking or just in general.

I was able to bulk on keto just fine-- just required a ridiculous surplus. It was cutting that turned out to be a disaster as I lost ALL my muscle and only about half my surplus bodyfat % (doing the math from kg in my head so not exact but from 210 lb to 170 and from 18% bodyfat to 14-- insane catabolism) trying this in 2018. N=1 and this runs counter to what most experience though

 

[baccheion]

I was able to bulk on keto just fine-- just required a ridiculous surplus. It was cutting that turned out to be a disaster as I lost ALL my muscle and only about half my surplus bodyfat % (doing the math from kg in my head so not exact but from 210 lb to 170 and from 18% bodyfat to 14-- insane catabolism) trying this in 2018. N=1 and this runs counter to what most experience though

How much protein in each case? I figured bulking with keto would require 200 grams protein.

 

[snacks]

How much protein in each case? I figured bulking with keto would require 200 grams protein.

Bout 250-300, same as now

 

[milkboi]

I was able to bulk on keto just fine-- just required a ridiculous surplus. It was cutting that turned out to be a disaster as I lost ALL my muscle and only about half my surplus bodyfat % (doing the math from kg in my head so not exact but from 210 lb to 170 and from 18% bodyfat to 14-- insane catabolism) trying this in 2018. N=1 and this runs counter to what most experience though

Same with me, I looked like a prison camp survivor on keto

 

[baccheion]

Bout 250-300, same as now

250-300 grams of protein!? How much do you weigh? What overall macros in each case?

 

[snacks]

250-300 grams of protein!? How much do you weigh? What overall macros in each case?

Closer to 190-195 lb with 9% body fat. Protein is the only macro I count but I eat close to 33/33/33 I'd imagine

 

[gaze]

Closer to 190-195 lb with 9% body fat. Protein is the only macro I count but I eat close to 33/33/33 I'd imagine

what carb sources ?

 

[snacks]

what carb sources ?

Fruit and fruit juice, some sugar in drinks, milk. I'd like to include rice and potatoes or bread for price and availability but I I react horribly to all of them. Sweet potatoes seem to be ok though

I get fresh killed meat whenever I gain so maybe glycogen is a significant carb source, not exactly sure how that works

 

[Uselis]

Fruit and fruit juice, some sugar in drinks, milk. I'd like to include rice and potatoes or bread for price and availability but I I react horribly to all of them. Sweet potatoes seem to be ok though

I get fresh killed meat whenever I gain so maybe glycogen is a significant carb source, not exactly sure how that works

Hey mate,

could you share your activity levels?

 

[Hgreen56]

No I haven't experienced this myself. Maybe you just do better on low fat, since higher fat creates more chylomicrons which transport endotoxin into your body.

Yes, I peeled them, which helped. I boiled them both long and short and that didn't seem to make a difference.

also if fat comes from coconut oil and cocoa butter? aren't those killing the endotoxins?

Thanks for your reaction(s) btw, I have to say this more often ;-)

 

[snacks]

Hey mate,

could you share your activity levels?

Extremely high between semesters, relatively low otherwise because I have to spend a lot of time at the computer but I still lift 1-2 times a day and walk 2-3 miles most days

 

[Uselis]

Extremely high between semesters, relatively low otherwise because I have to spend a lot of time at the computer but I still lift 1-2 times a day and walk 2-3 miles most days

When you say extremely high does it mean physical job? I am asking cause I have similar experiences with rice/potatoes but can't "crack the code" fully otherwise. Being highly active I can't feel quite right with sugar only.

 

[snacks]

When you say extremely high does it mean physical job? I am asking cause I have similar experiences with rice/potatoes but can't "crack the code" fully otherwise. Being highly active I can't feel quite right with sugar only.

I dont have 5he same job on a stable basis because i move around a lot; what I meant is that I'll spend hours lifting, will hike, kayak, climb etc. When I can.

I didnt do well on a high protein high carb low fat diet but am doing just fine with more fat. My energy definitely does feel just a bit frizzy with no starch but the lack of brain fog makes it worth it. I notice issues are all ameliorated by taking heavy cream and sugar together so digestion happens over time rather than all at once

 

[Uselis]

I dont have 5he same job on a stable basis because i move around a lot; what I meant is that I'll spend hours lifting, will hike, kayak, climb etc. When I can.

I didnt do well on a high protein high carb low fat diet but am doing just fine with more fat. My energy definitely does feel just a bit frizzy with no starch but the lack of brain fog makes it worth it. I notice issues are all ameliorated by taking heavy cream and sugar together so digestion happens over time rather than all at once

Thanks for response!

 

[tankasnowgod]

also if fat comes from coconut oil and cocoa butter? aren't those killing the endotoxins?

Endotoxin isn't alive. But over time, a higher saturated fat intake should have an antibiotic effect, so less endotoxin will be produced in the first place.

 

[Hans]

also if fat comes from coconut oil and cocoa butter? aren't those killing the endotoxins?

What @tankasnowgod said. Just to add, coconut oil might have a more anti-bacterial effect than coconut oil due to the lauric acid, whereas cocoa butter might also help to reduce endotoxin absorption by speeding up transit time, due to the stearic acid.
So both can be beneficial, it just depends how you react to it.