My Solution For Post Finasteride Syndrom

haidut

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I wonder why the guys on hackstasis are having success treating their pfs? They say it works fast and effectively to bring their libido and energy back up to par. The drawback is they complain about what seems to them to be high prolactin and/or adrenaline issues.

Do you think it supresses cortisol, raises prolactin, and stimulates GABA?

The mental effects of PFS are mostly depression, due to high cortisol and lower allopregnanolone. Cortisol antagonists like RU486 have been successfully used for intractable depression for years and in addition a cortisol antagonist would remove the block on gonadal steroidogenesis, including T/DHT, and improve overall metabolism. I do not see how using RU486 is incompatible or different with all the anti-cortisol measures Peat has spoken about. It is simply a synthetic cortisol blocker, while Peta prefers the endogenous ones like progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, thyroid, etc.
 

brix

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The mental effects of PFS are mostly depression, due to high cortisol and lower allopregnanolone. Cortisol antagonists like RU486 have been successfully used for intractable depression for years and in addition a cortisol antagonist would remove the block on gonadal steroidogenesis, including T/DHT, and improve overall metabolism. I do not see how using RU486 is incompatible or different with all the anti-cortisol measures Peat has spoken about. It is simply a synthetic cortisol blocker, while Peta prefers the endogenous ones like progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, thyroid, etc.

I think the progesterone modulation is the most important attribute of RU486 and ullipristal in regards to PFS. Ullipristal does not effect cortisol yet PFS (and PSSD and post accutane) sufferers benefit from it the same.
 

haidut

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I think the progesterone modulation is the most important attribute of RU486 and ullipristal in regards to PFS. Ullipristal does not effect cortisol yet PFS (and PSSD and post accutane) sufferers benefit from it the same.

Glucocorticoid antagonists usually do not change cortisol levels, except in high doses where they may raise cortisol levels due to the feedback mechanism. Drugs like RU486 simply block the effects of cortisol, and blocking cortisol effects has been shown to be powerfully antidepressant and neurotrophic, and to restore proper steroidogenesis. Ulipristal is also a glucocorticoid antagonist, it is almost the same molecule as RU486. Both were developed as glucocorticoid antagonists and only subsequently marketed as progesterone antagonists as the market for the latter is much bigger and more profitable. Here is at least one link showing ulipristal acting as glucocorticoid antagonist and having comparable effects to RU486. Ulipirstal is about 60% weaker than RU486 as GR antagonist but still very potent.
https://www.tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/auspar-ulipristal-acetate-150904.docx
"...The pituitary, liver and adrenal gland also showed notable changes with treatment. Pituitary gland hyperplasia was observed in rats at all doses in the 6 month study, and bodyweight relative pituitary weight was significantly increased in rats with treatment at ≥5 mg/kg/day for 6 months and at ≥20 mg/kg/day for 2 weeks. These effects were not observed in monkeys. Hepatocellular hypertrophy was observed in rats treated at the high dose levels in the 2 week and 6 month studies, together with increased bodyweight relative liver weight. Bodyweight relative liver weight was also increased at the high dose level in the 2 week monkey study, but there were no effects on liver weight or histology in the 6 and 9 month monkey studies (≤25 mg/kg/day). Adrenal cortical hypertrophy was commonly observed in high dose animals in the 2 week and 6 month rat studies and in the 6 month monkey study. Increased bodyweight relative adrenal weight was seen at the high dose levels in the 6 month rat study and the 2 week and 6 month monkey studies. Serum cortisol was found to be increased in monkeys at the high dose level in the 2 week study, at all doses in the 6 month study and at the high dose level in the 9 month study. The effects observed with ulipristal acetate are similar to those seen previously with mifepristone, and are consistent with the drug’s anti progesterone and anti glucocorticoid activities. No overt toxicity was seen in any of the repeat dose toxicity studies."

Given the side effects mentioned above, especially the increase in pituitary, liver and adrenal weight (which also occur with RU486) I would be highly reluctant to use this chemical, especially long term. Again, safer ways of opposing cortisol and restoring androgen and neurosteroid synthesis are available. I don't want to get into another forum cross-argument, so this is the last thing I will post on this topic.
Finally, if all those people on hackstasis truly cured their issues why are they still there and keep posting???
 

brix

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Glucocorticoid antagonists usually do not change cortisol levels, except in high doses where they may raise cortisol levels due to the feedback mechanism. Drugs like RU486 simply block the effects of cortisol, and blocking cortisol effects has been shown to be powerfully antidepressant and neurotrophic, and to restore proper steroidogenesis. Ulipristal is also a glucocorticoid antagonist, it is almost the same molecule as RU486. Both were developed as glucocorticoid antagonists and only subsequently marketed as progesterone antagonists as the market for the latter is much bigger and more profitable. Here is at least one link showing ulipristal acting as glucocorticoid antagonist and having comparable effects to RU486. Ulipirstal is about 60% weaker than RU486 as GR antagonist but still very potent.
https://www.tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/auspar-ulipristal-acetate-150904.docx
"...The pituitary, liver and adrenal gland also showed notable changes with treatment. Pituitary gland hyperplasia was observed in rats at all doses in the 6 month study, and bodyweight relative pituitary weight was significantly increased in rats with treatment at ≥5 mg/kg/day for 6 months and at ≥20 mg/kg/day for 2 weeks. These effects were not observed in monkeys. Hepatocellular hypertrophy was observed in rats treated at the high dose levels in the 2 week and 6 month studies, together with increased bodyweight relative liver weight. Bodyweight relative liver weight was also increased at the high dose level in the 2 week monkey study, but there were no effects on liver weight or histology in the 6 and 9 month monkey studies (≤25 mg/kg/day). Adrenal cortical hypertrophy was commonly observed in high dose animals in the 2 week and 6 month rat studies and in the 6 month monkey study. Increased bodyweight relative adrenal weight was seen at the high dose levels in the 6 month rat study and the 2 week and 6 month monkey studies. Serum cortisol was found to be increased in monkeys at the high dose level in the 2 week study, at all doses in the 6 month study and at the high dose level in the 9 month study. The effects observed with ulipristal acetate are similar to those seen previously with mifepristone, and are consistent with the drug’s anti progesterone and anti glucocorticoid activities. No overt toxicity was seen in any of the repeat dose toxicity studies."

Given the side effects mentioned above, especially the increase in pituitary, liver and adrenal weight (which also occur with RU486) I would be highly reluctant to use this chemical, especially long term. Again, safer ways of opposing cortisol and restoring androgen and neurosteroid synthesis are available. I don't want to get into another forum cross-argument, so this is the last thing I will post on this topic.
Finally, if all those people on hackstasis truly cured their issues why are they still there and keep posting???

I agree about the long term use. But I think people still post because PFS has such a vast effect on the entire body. These two drugs mostly fix the sexual side effects caused by finasteride. The brain fog, poor body composition, and mental sides are still being “researched” and discussed over there.
 

sladerunner69

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The mental effects of PFS are mostly depression, due to high cortisol and lower allopregnanolone. Cortisol antagonists like RU486 have been successfully used for intractable depression for years and in addition a cortisol antagonist would remove the block on gonadal steroidogenesis, including T/DHT, and improve overall metabolism. I do not see how using RU486 is incompatible or different with all the anti-cortisol measures Peat has spoken about. It is simply a synthetic cortisol blocker, while Peta prefers the endogenous ones like progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA, thyroid, etc.

Well I've read people claiming nearly the exact opposite, that RU486 dramatically raises cortisol and lowers progesterone (isnt this why it works as an abortion inducer?) That Goldbuev dude says that DHT becomes "sensitized" and more "potent" because of cortisol. He says thay low cortisol will result in the feeling of low DHT and low libido, depression. He also says that by lowerring progesterone ru486 is able to "resensitize" the progesterone receptor so that it may work properly. Apparently, he thinks finasteride ruined our sensitivity to progesterone by desensitizing the receptor.

I have my own doubts about his explanation but I was curious to hear your thoughts. Does any of this sound reasonably plausible? Ru486 does not seem to have much research behind it for me to find
 

haidut

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RU486 dramatically raises cortisol and lowers progesterone

Not true, as I explained my reponse to brix - receptor antagonists do NOT lower levels of the steroid they antagonize but rather increase it. Look at the quote for Ulipristal - it raised cortisol. RU486 does the same - it raises cortisol and progesterone while it is being taken because it is an antagonist at both GR and PR. The abortion effects occur since RU486 blocks PR, so it is preventing progesterone from doing its job. Taking an antagonist is a signal to the organism that you have LOW levels of a specific hormone so it increases endogenous production. So, while RU486 is taken levels of cortisol and progesterone will increase. After you stop it, due to increased receptor expression for GR and PR as a result of taking an antagonist like RU486, those cortisol and progesterone levels will drop to levels probably lower than before taking RU486. Increased receptor expression after you stop taking the antagonist signal the organism that you don't need as much of the cortisol/progesterone so it lowers endogenous synthesis. That's how RU486 treats diabetes II - it increases GR receptor expression and that causes cortisol synthesis levels to drop unless you have Cushign disease in which case cortisol levels will stay elevated. So, people with Cushing have to take RU486 basically for life.
 

Dhair

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Finally, if all those people on hackstasis truly cured their issues why are they still there and keep posting???
Frankly I'm disappointed by this kind of response. I don't agree with the explanations that gbolduev has for why these things work, but the guys over at hackstasis at least have a better attitude than this when it comes to actually working toward recovery. People who have fixed their issues stay to support the others who are still suffering. I don't know why it is so hard to believe that people who have been through a traumatizing experience like PFS would want to support each other. It is a small forum of only 300 or so registered users, but most of the people who were on hackstasis from the beginning have had significant improvements in their condition, and it looks like it's mostly due to using RU486 or Ella and improving their digestion. These are people who have used many cortisol-blocking substances and have followed standard Peat recommendations religiously with limited to no success. They all have positive attitudes and they are very supportive in general. From the comments that you have made regarding PFS, I'm getting the impression that you think it is a permanent condition. It's really no surprise to me that the PFS people felt the need to make their own forum when the outlook for their condition on the Propecia Help forum and on here has been so bleak.
 
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haidut

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Frankly I'm disappointed by this kind of response. I don't agree with the explanations that gbolduev has for why these things work, but the guys over at hackstasis at least have a better attitude than this when it comes to actually working toward recovery. People who have fixed their issues stay to support the others who are still suffering. It is a small forum of only 300 or so registered users, but most of the people who were on hackstasis from the beginning have had significant improvements in their condition, and it looks like it's mostly due to using RU486 or Ella and improving their digestion. They all have positive attitudes and they are very supportive in general. From the comments that you have made regarding PFS, I'm getting the impression that you think it is a permanent condition. It's really no surprise to me that the PFS people felt the need to make their own forum when the outlook for their condition on the Propecia Help forum and on here has been so bleak.

You are right, my apologies, I did not express myself correctly. What I meant to say is why are the "cured" people posting that they still have largely the same issues and thus need to continuously tweak the protocol or continue taking RU486? I did not mean to say they would not be posting anything if they fixed their issues. If they indeed fixed the issue there should be no need for continuous intervention. If they only got a temporary relief that's perfectly fine, but then it is the same protocol that this forum gets accused of promoting - i.e. "patchwork" temporary solutions with various chemicals or diet.
 

Dhair

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You are right, my apologies, I did not express myself correctly. What I meant to say is why are the "cured" people posting that they still have largely the same issues and thus need to continuously tweak the protocol or continue taking RU486? I did not mean to say they would not be posting anything if they fixed their issues. If they indeed fixed the issue there should be no need for continuous intervention. If they only got a temporary relief that's perfectly fine, but then it is the same protocol that this forum gets accused of promoting - i.e. "patchwork" temporary solutions with various chemicals or diet.
That hasn't been what I've seen on that forum recently. Granted, the most frequent posters who were there from the beginning is a relatively small sample size, but they seem to all have significant improvements in their baseline. So if they were at say 30% before Ella or Ru486, taking those drugs could get them to 70 or 80% as a baseline, and the people who respond very well seem to maintain the benefits for a long period of time, maybe permanently. It is too early to tell. Most guys who have logged their progress with these drugs have had very good experiences with them.
Maybe PFS could be looked at as a Cushing's -like condition that needs constant maintenance and optimizing, but I don't think that's the case at all. There are a handful of recoveries from people who have really worked hard at this over the past few months. You should read them and look for trends if you're interested. I am just tired of people implying that this condition is permanent when there are documented suicides of PFS sufferers, and they most likely killed themselves because the only people who were "supporting" them were telling them that they could never get better.
 
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haidut

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That hasn't been what I've seen on that forum recently. Granted, the most frequent posters who were there from the beginning is a relatively small sample size, but they seem to all have significant improvements in their baseline. So if they were at say 30% before Ella or Ru486, taking those drugs could get them to 70 or 80% as a baseline, and the people who respond very well seem to maintain the benefits for a long period of time, maybe permanently. It is too early to tell. Most guys who have logged their progress with these drugs have had very good experiences with them.
Maybe PFS could be looked at as a Cushing's -like condition that needs constant maintenance and optimizing, but I don't think that's the case at all. There are a handful of recoveries from people who have really worked hard at this over the past few months. You should read them and look for trends if you're interested. I am just tired of people implying that this condition is permanent when there are documented suicides of PFS sufferers, and they most likely killed themselves because the only people who were "supporting" them were telling them that they could never get better.

I am not saying PFS is permanent, quite to the contrary. Glad to hear people are improving. I guess we don't know exactly how many people also improved comparably based on using androgens and/or allopregnanolone precursors. There are reports like that on this forum. Either way, my goal is not to argue which approach is the "correct" one but rather try various things and ideally have a list of multiple methods that work. There is no single "right" way. My point was that the approach tried over at hackstasis seems very much in line with Peat's ideas, but uses synthetic glucocorticoid antagonists instead of the endogenous ones he prefers. I even asked him (about 2 years ago) why he does not mention RU486 more often in his articles, especially in context of steroidal abnormalities like PFS and he said "there are much safer ways like progesterone, DHEA, emodin, thyroid, pregnenolone, aspirin, etc". He also said finasteride messes up the liver and small intestine function, and those aspects probably won't be helped by RU486 but in his opinion the substances mentioned earlier would help there too.
Anyways, maybe you can ask some of the members over there to post their success stories here. It would be interesting to hear what worked for them and what did not. Many of them are members here as well so it should be easy for them to cross-post.
 

wildworld1992

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I took a low dose anti-progestin (a medication called Ella) for 5 days. This brought back libido and erections 75%. Then focused on digestion and eating healthy which got me back to baseline.

I would say my libido and sexual function is the best it’s been in my entire life now.
Hi brix, are you still fully recovered? And did you have high progesterone level before you use Ella?
 

brix

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Hi brix, are you still fully recovered? And did you have high progesterone level before you use Ella?
hard to say. I don't really have erection issues as much from the finasteride usage.
I stopped stressing about it and taking random drugs/supplements and that probably had the best effect.
I completely forgot about the Ella.
 

dre97

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I took a low dose anti-progestin (a medication called Ella) for 5 days. This brought back libido and erections 75%. Then focused on digestion and eating healthy which got me back to baseline.

I would say my libido and sexual function is the best it’s been in my entire life now.
Great to hear man, how long did you have PFS for and what were your main symptoms?
 

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