My Journey To Optimal Health

[somuch4food]

About @Kelj's approach, the intuitive eating plays a big part IMO. Last week, I had a lot of pregnancy edema and while shopping I thought that veggies were appetizing and I also fancied some liver. After eating some liver and a cup of raw celery, I had one of the worse night of sleep in a while because my body was finally shedding the water from the edema. I felt fine the day after despite the bad sleep.

Now, it's like I'm doing reverse science. I experiment with foods and then search afterwards if there is some relevancy to what I experimented. I'm finding B12 seems to be important in my case and makes the most difference in mood and energy, so I make sure to eat some animal proteins every few hours. I was careless yesterday and my body started to hurt all over in the late afternoon. It got better after I ate some chicken nuggets. I also found out after the fact that celery is indeed a diuretic which helps with edema.

 

[Cirion]

I definitely think there is value to feeding your body what it needs, absolutely. But the intuition, we could argue about this all day, but I think intuition can not be trusted. I don't know where it broke down, likely when grocery store stopped selling real food.

Here's the thing -- I intuitively ate my whole life until around age 25. And it only made me sick. One thing I will say is that intuitive eating actually isn't the worst thing at keeping weight under control, as I was never overweight until recently. But this method is not good for mental health. Even though I was never overweight, I had constant depression. Looking back it was because I ate a high tryptophan, high starch, high fat (pufa) diet, and likely insufficient carbs also. I never ate low calories either. I didn't count back then, but I probably ate 3000-4000 calories a day easily, maybe some days more., given that I had a history of eating subs by the foot, large burgers available with fries and chips and dessert and sugary soda, eating whole pizzas by myself with 2L of sugar sodas, etc...

However, at age 25, I started to gain weight even with intuition. It is folly to ignore that things like environment and other stressors not related to diet can't impact weight to a significant degree. Again, and I think we all agree here, that weight is not the same as mental state. You can be lean but miserable. Which I was.

Here's the other thing: I only achieved health for the first time in my life around age 30, when I was more orthorexic than I had ever been my whole life also. Orthorexia saved my life, intuitive eating destroyed it. Fact. At least for me.

Experience is the best teacher, and experience has taught me that orthorexia > intuitive eating. I can't deny that for some they might have the opposite experience, and if so great, more power to them. We all want to be healthy, so if intuitive eating achieves that goal, then that's awesome. Truly.

So, why have I been struggling one might ask? It's because I'm severely overweight and inflamed. Once you are severely overweight, the smallest of errors in diet impacts you severely and even being perfect in diet only puts you one small step forward. I will say that I hope to become a little less restrictive as I get leaner and am able to tolerate more foods.

I think just being overweight and inflamed ruins your sense of intuition also, which is part of the problem. Healthy people tend to make better choices in general -- better food choices, better exercise choices, actively avoid stressors, actively do things that make them happy. Aka, the "positive health spiral". People stuck in the "negative health spiral", conversely, seek "quick fixes" like alcohol, drugs, bad foods, and more and their "intuition" leads them down this path. Again, experience is the best teacher. When I was healthier, I indeed made better choices naturally, so that's why I know this.

 

[mbachiu]

About @Kelj's approach, the intuitive eating plays a big part IMO. Last week, I had a lot of pregnancy edema and while shopping I thought that veggies were appetizing and I also fancied some liver. After eating some liver and a cup of raw celery, I had one of the worse night of sleep in a while because my body was finally shedding the water from the edema. I felt fine the day after despite the bad sleep.

Now, it's like I'm doing reverse science. I experiment with foods and then search afterwards if there is some relevancy to what I experimented. I'm finding B12 seems to be important in my case and makes the most difference in mood and energy, so I make sure to eat some animal proteins every few hours. I was careless yesterday and my body started to hurt all over in the late afternoon. It got better after I ate some chicken nuggets. I also found out after the fact that celery is indeed a diuretic which helps with edema.

You have found this approach to work for you, too? Interesting. I think I’m just starting to get on board.

 

[Runenight201]

Intuitive eating always works if one is honest about their relationship between food being eaten and their symptoms, and there is an ability to figure out what foods are causing problems for whatever reasons, and what foods are actually health promoting for whatever reason. The difficulty lies in the honesty and not attempting to force something because of some preconceived belief system, allowing cognitive bias to deceive the self’s perception of its own health state.

As an example, I used to eat cheesy beef thinking that it was good for me. I certainly felt better. And stronger. But what I didn’t realize was that it was clogging my digestion and lowering my energy. What my body really needed was fat and salt, hence why I felt marginally better from the cheesy beef, but it wasn’t the true apex of healthy eating for me. Only by being honest about my health and symptoms, and through extensive cooking and experimentation, could I slowly make progress towards creating foods that were actually healthy for me.

But if I never followed my intuition to begin with, I have no idea where I’d be right now. Probably adhering to some dietary regimen and experiencing a range of negative symptoms consistently.

 

[Cirion]

Intuitive eating always works if one is honest about their relationship between food being eaten and their symptoms, and there is an ability to figure out what foods are causing problems for whatever reasons, and what foods are actually health promoting for whatever reason. The difficulty lies in the honesty and not attempting to force something because of some preconceived belief system, allowing cognitive bias to deceive the self’s perception of its own health state.

As an example, I used to eat cheesy beef thinking that it was good for me. I certainly felt better. And stronger. But what I didn’t realize was that it was clogging my digestion and lowering my energy. What my body really needed was fat and salt, hence why I felt marginally better from the cheesy beef, but it wasn’t the true apex of healthy eating for me. Only by being honest about my health and symptoms, and through extensive cooking and experimentation, could I slowly make progress towards creating foods that were actually healthy for me.

But if I never followed my intuition to begin with, I have no idea where I’d be right now. Probably adhering to some dietary regimen and experiencing a range of negative symptoms consistently.

I should note that I don't use zero intuition in my eating. If I had to apply %'s, it might be 75% analytical 25% intuition.

I think it is probably unwise to eat 100% analytically and 0% intuition just like I think it is unwise to eat 100% intuition 0% analytically. I just swing further on the analytical spectrum than other people. Let me give an example of how I DO use intuition sometimes still.

Sample scenario: End of day arrives -> I still feel a little hungry despite eating my normal foods. I know that fasting is unwise even if it boosts my calories more than I think I need. And I know I need to have something besides JUST carbs to fill that, but I remember that too much fat is a problem, and too much meat is a problem, so I eat what does satiate hunger based upon my analytical knowledge of what works for me. So basically that means maybe some jello, or some sweetened milk, in my context. I've learned from experience that filling this hunger with a bunch of meat is not helpful, even though it fills the immediate hunger. The trick is to try to fill the hunger, without causing metabolic distress.

You sound like you do use some analytical methods in your approach so that's good. You're likely more like 50% analytical 50% intuition which is certainly not a bad place to be. I have to swing a little more to 75%+ analytical given that so many foods cause me problems tho.

 

[Collden]

I agree with Runenight that true intuitive eating is the superior approach to diet but unconscious cognitive biases very easily gets in the way. Especially for former orthorexics we have literally thousands of dietary beliefs that are not so easy to simply banish.

I know that whenever I manage to figure out exactly what and how much I'm craving in a given meal, managing to pick out that combination of foods that well and truly "hits the spot", is when I feel best afterwards. In contrast whenever I force myself to eat something I'm not really craving out of some deep-buried anxiety that I haven't gotten enough calories or carbs or protein or whatever, the result is usually indigestion and malaise.

There were some people following Gwyneth Olwyns program who failed really badly and just saw their health get worse and worse with time, and I think the cause was mostly underfeeding anxiety. They'd keep overfeeding even after most foods would make them gag because they interpreted the stomach pain from their chronic indigestion as "hunger" and feared it meant they were actually starving.

 

[somuch4food]

You have found this approach to work for you, too? Interesting. I think I’m just starting to get on board.

I can't fully back it up atm since I'm pregnant. There are too many factors at play to be 100% sure this approach will work when I'm back to more normal level of hormones, but compared with my previous pregnancy I'm feeling more energetic and have better focus at work, I've also put on much more weight despite still wearing the same pants as before pregnancy. I'm not counting calories right now, but I think I do still undereat on certain days when I focus less on food. I will have to reassess my intake to make sure not to go below the calories threshold.

I also agree with @Cirion that intuitive eating must also have an analytic component. I think most people simply eat thoughtlessly thinking it does not really matter and that food doesn't have a huge impact on health. That's how it was for me before, I ate what was in front of me and didn't give a second thought on how I felt from the food I ate. You need to create a feedback loop where you eat something and notice your body signals as the food is being processed.

From that process, I have learnt that fried food and chips mess up my digestion and energy and that excess carotenoids gives me hot flushes at night. What I like most of this approach is that I get to enjoy eating again and do not worry about every little symptom I have. I only act on symptoms when they don't go away after a few days a sign that something is clearly going wrong. Healing pain is generally an acute response, not a chronic one.

 

[Cirion]

Yeh, the average American follows the "see food" diet. See food, eat food, essentially. Basically an animalistic approach to food. I would say that's how I approached food when I was younger and clearly that didn't work for me. 0% analytical approach, if I wanted food I ate it no question asked. I'm actually all for eating "junk" foods if it does make you feel better and have better temps.pulses etc. The few times I have experimented with this, hasn't been good for me though.

To throw out analytics entirely is folly pure and simple. The more data I collect the more some things become crystal clear, without a shadow of a doubt. One example is: Cysteine is a problem, full stop, don't pass go, etc.

100% of my data below 0.8 gram a day results in weight loss. No exceptions. This btw is regardless of calories/carbs/protein/fats/other micros ANY other factor. no exceptions means no exceptions. And I now have 6 full months of data, which is not a small amount anymore and it's starting to turn into a big amount of useful data.

Same with tryptophan and a 0.7 gram threshold for that or so. 100% of data shows weight loss, no exceptions here either.

Sure intuitively I learned too much meat is bad, but how much is too much? Well now I can assign a number to it. Which to me, is very empowering, it puts ME in control of my health and weight loss, it means I have a clear cut action plan and can quantify it numerically rather than subjectively "oh just don't eat too much meat".

Part of my way of thinking is because I am an engineer. One can not just "eyeball" an aircraft design and get it right. You'll be laughed out of the room when the government asks why you chose that wing design "because it looks right". Sure, that can get you somewhat in the ballpark, especially when you have 20+ years experience designing wings, but then you must back it up with analytics. Note that even the "ballparking" 20 year expert, that ballpark, it was based upon analytics too.

 

[mbachiu]

Yeh, the average American follows the "see food" diet. See food, eat food, essentially. Basically an animalistic approach to food. I would say that's how I approached food when I was younger and clearly that didn't work for me. 0% analytical approach, if I wanted food I ate it no question asked. I'm actually all for eating "junk" foods if it does make you feel better and have better temps.pulses etc. The few times I have experimented with this, hasn't been good for me though.

To throw out analytics entirely is folly pure and simple. The more data I collect the more some things become crystal clear, without a shadow of a doubt. One example is: Cysteine is a problem, full stop, don't pass go, etc.

100% of my data below 0.8 gram a day results in weight loss. No exceptions. This btw is regardless of calories/carbs/protein/fats/other micros ANY other factor. no exceptions means no exceptions. And I now have 6 full months of data, which is not a small amount anymore and it's starting to turn into a big amount of useful data.

Same with tryptophan and a 0.7 gram threshold for that or so. 100% of data shows weight loss, no exceptions here either.

Sure intuitively I learned too much meat is bad, but how much is too much? Well now I can assign a number to it. Which to me, is very empowering, it puts ME in control of my health and weight loss, it means I have a clear cut action plan and can quantify it numerically rather than subjectively "oh just don't eat too much meat".

Part of my way of thinking is because I am an engineer. One can not just "eyeball" an aircraft design and get it right. You'll be laughed out of the room when the government asks why you chose that wing design "because it looks right". Sure, that can get you somewhat in the ballpark, especially when you have 20+ years experience designing wings, but then you must back it up with analytics. Note that even the "ballparking" 20 year expert, that ballpark, it was based upon analytics too.

I promise I am not trying to hijack your thread & make this about me. But, I want to tell you a little about what’s been going on with me, maybe just articulating it will help me understand it better... maybe there will be something of relevance to you here too (& very likely not, as well). I have always been incredibly active. Definitely Orthorexic, but I genuinely do very much enjoy the gym & being active. After a particularly stressful life event about two years ago, I dieted using calorie restriction & then about 9 months ago stuff started to go sideways. Lots & lots of body pain. A lot of acne. Loss of strength. Fatigue. Blood sugar regulation issues. Through Ray Peat Women’s Group, I found out about Nathan Hatch. Through his methods, I sort of involuntarily started diet recovery. I am VERY grateful for Nathan because it’s through his approach that I finally started to eat enough. However, while he advocates for eating a lot of food, there are a lot of things you can’t eat when following his approach. In the past five months of working with him, I have eaten out 4 times. I have spent literally a thousand bucks on vitamins & supplements. I still can’t reach a decent pulse rate over 85 more than once maybe twice a week, & I live in central Canada so the weather is starting to turn & im now thinking I might not be able to all winter without access to sun.

I totally get what you are saying about food quality, about nutrient density & about having an analytic approach. I am on board for all of those things. But, I do think that the human body should be more resilient, & not needing to always cutting out so many foods & taking so many supplements & still not achieving a consistently strong pulse (or temperature).

Again, I don’t mean to hijack. I guess I have just been thinking a lot about what @Kelj writes in her posts. Sometimes I wonder if simpler is better???

 

[somuch4food]

Again, I don’t mean to hijack. I guess I have just been thinking a lot about what @Kelj writes in her posts. Sometimes I wonder if simpler is better???

I hope you won't mind Cirion. I went for this approach because I was tired of trying to make sense of an ever expanding puzzle that was just getting more complicated while my health did not improve much overall. What I like with this approach is that I can finally relax and just be in the moment instead of constantly actively thinking which I find detrimental to overall health. I would say I've had an eating disorder since childhood. I've always felt I needed to finish my plate and then as a teenager I started to be more aware of healthy eating and I would eat my veggies even if I did not want them. I started restricting calories in an attempt to be healthy and it just got me in a worse position.

 

[Cirion]

Thanks for the comment. My thread is an open forum, no need to apologize for any hijacking =P

I feel you man. Calorie restriction was the final straw to my health as well. I have also spent lots of money, I feel you lol. Like I say, where I and Kelj do see eye to eye is calories. Calories must must must be sufficient or you will suffer and not recover.

Yes, I do tend to agree that the human body can be resilient... but only once it is healed, and not before. My opinion, of course. That's where me and Kelj disagree strongly. I think the thing is that people have a hard time eating enough healthy foods and thus end up in a deficiency. It's easier to get enough calories when you eat very calorie densed processed foods. On that, I can see and agree with.

Take a look at Zach's hypothyroid recovery thread from the other RP forums:
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

The short version of his story is at first he had to be orthorexic, restrict PUFA, high carb the usual things we hear quoted around here. He did that, lost his body fat, and then he found that he could slowly introduce other foods back into his diet after he was PUFA depleted like more dietary fats for example. Over time, his orthorexy paid off -- eventually he could eat any foods, even "junk" foods. But the point I'm making here, is that he didn't start off eating junk, he did had to undergo a period of forceful PUFA depletion and whatnot to restore his heatlh, but yes, the end-state was he could now eat anything he wanted, but that's after restoring his health, and not before. This is essentially my strategy as well. Purge PUFA, purge bodyfat, then I should be able to handle more fats in my diet, and more foods in general. Meanwhile ensuring that my metabolic rate doesn't drop via dropping body fat by keeping calories and sugar high etc. The problem is, just being fat makes your body not work right in so many ways. Lactic acid, FFA's, PUFA burning, estrogen dominance, serotonin, and more. Getting rid of the bodyfat is crucial to restoring health. This is where I agree with modern medicine. I just disagree on the methods modern medicine promotes (take these drugs, restrict calories harshly, restrict carbs, exercise every day, take your fish oil, etc...)

Yes, keeping temps and pulses is a challenge. That's why I started extensively tracking data. After 6 months of tracking, I'm almost finally clear on how to do it. Just working out a few kinks at this point.

 

[mbachiu]

I hope you won't mind Cirion. I went for this approach because I was tired of trying to make sense of an ever expanding puzzle that was just getting more complicated while my health did not improve much overall. What I like with this approach is that I can finally relax and just be in the moment instead of constantly actively thinking which I find detrimental to overall health. I would say I've had an eating disorder since childhood. I've always felt I needed to finish my plate and then as a teenager I started to be more aware of healthy eating and I would eat my veggies even if I did not want them. I started restricting calories in an attempt to be healthy and it just got me in a worse position.

Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated. I was put on my first diet at 9, and it’s been a battle since then. I think SO MUCH about food & what I’m eating/supplementing all the time. I’m starting to feel burnt out from the approach I’m taking right now, even though it is in large part based on refeeding.

 

[mbachiu]

Thanks for the comment. My thread is an open forum, no need to apologize for any hijacking =P

I feel you man. Calorie restriction was the final straw to my health as well. I have also spent lots of money, I feel you lol. Like I say, where I and Kelj do see eye to eye is calories. Calories must must must be sufficient or you will suffer and not recover.

Yes, I do tend to agree that the human body can be resilient... but only once it is healed, and not before. My opinion, of course. That's where me and Kelj disagree strongly. I think the thing is that people have a hard time eating enough healthy foods and thus end up in a deficiency. It's easier to get enough calories when you eat very calorie densed processed foods. On that, I can see and agree with.

Take a look at Zach's hypothyroid recovery thread from the other RP forums:
What i have done to cure hypo and stay lean.

The short version of his story is at first he had to be orthorexic, restrict PUFA, high carb the usual things we hear quoted around here. He did that, lost his body fat, and then he found that he could slowly introduce other foods back into his diet after he was PUFA depleted like more dietary fats for example. Over time, his orthorexy paid off -- eventually he could eat any foods, even "junk" foods. But the point I'm making here, is that he didn't start off eating junk, he did had to undergo a period of forceful PUFA depletion and whatnot to restore his heatlh, but yes, the end-state was he could now eat anything he wanted, but that's after restoring his health, and not before. This is essentially my strategy as well. Purge PUFA, purge bodyfat, then I should be able to handle more fats in my diet, and more foods in general. Meanwhile ensuring that my metabolic rate doesn't drop via dropping body fat by keeping calories and sugar high etc. The problem is, just being fat makes your body not work right in so many ways. Lactic acid, FFA's, PUFA burning, estrogen dominance, serotonin, and more. Getting rid of the bodyfat is crucial to restoring health. This is where I agree with modern medicine. I just disagree on the methods modern medicine promotes (take these drugs, restrict calories harshly, restrict carbs, exercise every day, take your fish oil, etc...)

Yes, keeping temps and pulses is a challenge. That's why I started extensively tracking data. After 6 months of tracking, I'm almost finally clear on how to do it. Just working out a few kinks at this point.

Keep us posted. Making consistent gains in temps & pulse is a bit of a mystery to me too.

 

[Cirion]

Thanks for sharing. Much appreciated. I was put on my first diet at 9, and it’s been a battle since then. I think SO MUCH about food & what I’m eating/supplementing all the time. I’m starting to feel burnt out from the approach I’m taking right now, even though it is in large part based on refeeding.

That is brutal. No child should ever be deprived of calories. I think it is a travesty that we see obese children and then deprive them thinking they eat too much. Like I say as a kid, man I'd eat 4-5000 calories a day lol and still manage to be lean.

So, I might need to revisit a completely zero starch diet as more data is coming in on the low end.

If you look carefully you see that at around 50 gram, my temperatures fall off a cliff and benefits to weight loss seems to be leveling off as well... So, if there is a benefit (which there may be), it's not much, maybe around 50-75 gram a day. Any more than that risks the weight gain problems.

 

[Blossom]

There were some people following Gwyneth Olwyns program who failed really badly and just saw their health get worse and worse with time, and I think the cause was mostly underfeeding anxiety. They'd keep overfeeding even after most foods would make them gag because they interpreted the stomach pain from their chronic indigestion as "hunger" and feared it meant they were actually starving.

100% agree. Food is necessary and important but not the answer to everything.

 

[Cirion]

100% agree. Food is necessary and important but not the answer to everything.

Yeah I just can't get on board with gaining 100 lbs following such an approach. Yes, your body will likely gain (some) weight after going off a calorie deficit, especially if you are underweight to begin with, and push towards more normal caloric intakes. A few months maybe gain at most 20 lb or something (possibly a little more if severely underweight, ok fine, I'm talking about the average person tho). Any more than that, and your approach isn't working and something is wrong, in my opinion. There was an example of a woman that literally doubled her weight during "recovery" (90 lb to like 190 lb, actually more than double). No one can convince me that's okay and acceptable. It somehow worked out in the end, but that is just way too much unnecessary pain to go through. It's even worse imo to suggest someone overweight needs to gain upwards of 100 more lbs on top of their already excessive weight. You could literally cause someone to go into the ER giving that kind of advice. Telling someone who weighs 400 lb or something oh just push through your 100 lb weight to 500 lb, it'll get better. Ummm, no. Lol.

 

[mbachiu]

That is brutal. No child should ever be deprived of calories. I think it is a travesty that we see obese children and then deprive them thinking they eat too much. Like I say as a kid, man I'd eat 4-5000 calories a day lol and still manage to be lean.

So, I might need to revisit a completely zero starch diet as more data is coming in on the low end.

View attachment 14942

If you look carefully you see that at around 50 gram, my temperatures fall off a cliff and benefits to weight loss seems to be leveling off as well... So, if there is a benefit (which there may be), it's not much, maybe around 50-75 gram a day. Any more than that risks the weight gain problems.

For what’s its worth, I was going through puberty at 9 or 10 & things with my body went wild. I wasn’t obese or anything, but I did balloon up pretty well.

Even with refeeding I’ve likely only gained about 20-25 lbs in total (this is a guess, because I know if I step on a scale I’ll be triggered to diet again-not objective I know, but the truth). Even though I tracked my food & followed macros religiously, I was still eating a lot of food for a small woman, so I think that’s probably why my refeed hasn’t resulted in the weight gain that others experience, even though I’m likely eating about 4000 calories (I’m 5’2” & 39 years old). I also was willing to give up exercise-now I just walk my dog once or twice a day, go to restorative yoga once a week, & maybe maybe go for a bike ride or paddleboard once a week. Other than that I’m completely sedentary.

For what it’s worth, no starch made me feel like I was dying. Even with eating a decent amount of fat, I found no starch completely unsatiating & I had to eat like every 30 minutes to an hour. Lots of the high cortisol I was experiencing went down when I started eating starch 4-5/day. But I did gain at least 10 lbs doing that. I know you’re doing lots of tinkering & really trying to figure out the ratios that work for you though!

Good luck on this continued journey, @Cirion!

 

[Cirion]

That's cool 20-25 lb is not too bad, it sounds like it is working for you. Perhaps the whole "go hog wild with food" approach bothers me I guess because I was coached by someone who basically told me to do just that, I'd probably still be gaining weight today if I hadn't fired my coach and would be sitting at well over 100 lb weight gain. As it stands I still have like 60-70+ lb to lose but at least I'm not as big as a house. I am actually able to weigh myself every day and not be triggerred to cut calories anymore, luckily, I have the personality of discipline lol. Also I have learned the past few weeks that cutting calories makes me gain weight =P

That made me realize the title for the book I'm gonna write that documents my recovery: "Calories in Calories out: DEBUNKED!"

From a business standpoint, I learned that making a book title as controversial as possible gets you more sales. I am pretty sure I can't get much more controversial than that. What say you guys?? =P

Giving up exercise is definitely huge. It was surprisingly easy for me to give up exercise, given my background of powerlifting and lots of bodybuilding-esque weightlifting. I definitely miss it, but I'll return to that lifestyle when my body is ready for it, and this time will be careful not to over do it.

 

[Blossom]

@Cirion, I thought you might like this video. She pretty much calls into question the whole idea of calories. It definitely doesn’t seem as cut and dry after listening to her speak. Just ignore any references to low carb /dieting.

 

[Cirion]

Allright, think I have already convinced myself that a tiny amount of starch is probably required. Not a lot, but some. Had some potato last night (about half of what I would do when I was regularly eating potatos) and today I got back up to 97.9F after using the restroom. My mental faculties definitely seemed about 25-33% more clear this morning also. Now, the question is how to dial in the correct amount, but like I said earlier, seems like maybe 75 gram is around the sweet spot. Now I have to figure out what to do about fat intake. Here's the interesting dilemma I am in.

-- I need a lot of calories. My data suggests at least 4000 calories if not more a day, was getting lazy here (one of the reasons for crap body temps)
-- I can not go wild with protein, at least unless I keep both cystseine and tryptophan below roughly 0.8 gram a day. This means using protein for energy is out with perhaps some exceptions, like doubling up on gelatin.
-- I can not go beyond around 600-700 gram sugar. My data shows even sugar is detrimental beyond this point.
-- I can not go beyond around 75-100 gram starch. This puts a hard cap on carbs also.
-- I can not go beyond around 40-50 gram fat it seems like either. I don't want to go too high fat anyway as it lowers my body temps.

Basically. RIP. Or, as my brother likes to say, "R.I.P.ORONI!" LOL.

Today I will be looking into this dilemma a little further to try to figure it out.

This is where I am so glad I am so dutiful with tracking things in my database. It's just a matter of taking my lens to the data to figure this out rather than guess at this point.