My Journey To Optimal Health

[Cirion]

Well I just wanted to assert that you're quoting research from a person that sells iodine.

Even if they truly believe their claims and, even if it's beneficial for a small subset of people, all my peers are healthy and they're not intaking iodine to any large degree.

You mention 300 mcg being low but in real world circumstances it's unusually high, so real world experience would heavily challenge the theory!

(in the UK and Europe that is!)

Understandable you would hold that opinion. If all of your peers are healthy that is rare, not the norm. Short of doing tests, I can't say whether they have enough or not, it's certainly possible they do. We would have to agree without extensive testing that it's speculation, on both our parts. That's one reason why I've opted to stop taking Iodine... for now. At least until I do some tests.

The papers speak to it better than I can if you like I can link you it. Yeah the research is from a person that sells iodine, but there are lots of good information there (100+ papers cited). Real world experience also shows that most people (At least here in the states) are unusually unhealthy =P

If we didn't have such high bromine, chlorine, fluorine intake then perhaps 300 mcg MIGHT be enough, but the problem is it all gets cancelled out. Just to give you an idea as a random example - 1 liter (or was it 2, I forgot) of mountain dew has 8 mg of brominated vegetable oil. Even one can of mountain dew has far more than 300 mcg of Bromine, which right off the bat cancels out 300 mcg of Iodine. So your average joe who doesn't watch his diet is definitely going to have issues. And even veggies, fruits may have a good amount of bromine as well. And then if you go into swimming pools, or use fluoridated toothpaste, it gets worse still.

BTW you can also test for Bromine toxicity. Dr. Brown had severe toxicity before he supplemented Iodine. I think it was like 70 ng/DL (or whatever the unit of measure was). Once he started Iodine supplementation, he dropped it down to 10. (Don't remember the unit of measure, but the point is he dropped it almost by a factor of 10, and clearly his body wasn't purging it without extra help).

as an aside - I used to drink mountain dew a LOT as a kid, and I had severe mental derangement. I was depressed / almost suicidal almost all the time.

What I'm trying to say I guess is there are three aspects to consider

1.) Thyroid sufficiency (150+mcg)
2.) Halide toxicity
3.) Whole body suffiency (mg+ dosage??)

#1 is the primary reason that 300 mcg is considered sufficient, from what I can see. #2 is under-appreciated and #3 is completely ignored, from most thyroid doctors, including RP.

 

[sunraiser]

Understandable you would hold that opinion. If all of your peers are healthy that is rare, not the norm. Short of doing tests, I can't say whether they have enough or not, it's certainly possible they do. We would have to agree without extensive testing that it's speculation, on both our parts. That's one reason why I've opted to stop taking Iodine... for now. At least until I do some tests.

The papers speak to it better than I can if you like I can link you it. Yeah the research is from a person that sells iodine, but there are lots of good information there (100+ papers cited). Real world experience also shows that most people (At least here in the states) are unusually unhealthy =P

If we didn't have such high bromine, chlorine, fluorine intake then perhaps 300 mcg MIGHT be enough, but the problem is it all gets cancelled out. Just to give you an idea as a random example - 1 liter (or was it 2, I forgot) of mountain dew has 8 mg of brominated vegetable oil. Even one can of mountain dew has far more than 300 mcg of Bromine, which right off the bat cancels out 300 mcg of Iodine. So your average joe who doesn't watch his diet is definitely going to have issues. And even veggies, fruits may have a good amount of bromine as well. And then if you go into swimming pools, or use fluoridated toothpaste, it gets worse still.

BTW you can also test for Bromine toxicity. Dr. Brown had severe toxicity before he supplemented Iodine. I think it was like 70 ng/DL (or whatever the unit of measure was). Once he started Iodine supplementation, he dropped it down to 10. (Don't remember the unit of measure, but the point is he dropped it almost by a factor of 10, and clearly his body wasn't purging it without extra help).

as an aside - I used to drink mountain dew a LOT as a kid, and I had severe mental derangement. I was depressed / almost suicidal almost all the time.

What I'm trying to say I guess is there are three aspects to consider

1.) Thyroid sufficiency (150+mcg)
2.) Halide toxicity
3.) Whole body suffiency (mg+ dosage??)

#1 is the primary reason that 300 mcg is considered sufficient, from what I can see. #2 is under-appreciated and #3 is completely ignored, from most thyroid doctors, including RP.

Fair enough.

I definitely think there are instances in which it can be helpful and you've mentioned potential for excess halides via mountain dew in yourself, but the articles I've read give a distinct fear mongering vibe in that they make everyone feel like they need to megadose just because they've been drinking chlorinated water.

I feel pretty uncomfortable with the perspective they put across as a whole and I think science becomes skewed when a person has an idea they're strongly attached to (or invested in) and they seek confirmation bias and reach for correlation without proper consideration.

You know yourself and your experiences though. There's a lot more bromine and fluoride to avoid in the US so that's probably part of the reason for our different experiences.

 

[Cirion]

I understand, but if you read Dr. Brownstein's book I am fairly certain he does not recommend to start a protocol without consultation of a Dr. and testing, I think near the beginning of the book, he is clear that his book is "for your information only".

Also keep in mind you're from Europe. Out of all civilized countries, from what I can tell, the USA is literally the most unhealthy first world country in the world. The Europeans and other countries actually have passed some laws banning bromine in sodas (I believe), among stricter EMF laws than the states, to name a couple. So, I could definitely believe your buddies are healthier than folks are here.

I can agree that confirmation bias does exist and I've been guilty of it. That said, again, I've read much of the research with as much objectiveness as I can and the evidence definitely does not point towards Iodine supposedly causing hypothyroid. One of the ways Iodine was falsely blamed was a study done on drugs containing Iodine alongside it. It was the drugs (forget which drug) that caused the problem, not the Iodine, yet Iodine got the blame for it. Also there are many forms of Iodine. Inorganic, Organic, Iodide, Iodine, Radioactive Iodine... ETC.... this matters. Just saying "Iodine causes hypothyroid" is misleading at best, and completely false at worst.

I personally don't think chlorine is nearly as big a deal as fluorine or especially bromine. Chlorine in my opinion is only a major concern if you swim a lot and/or visit a lot of swimming pools treated with chlorine. Nathan hatch used to swim a lot when he was younger and attributes a lot of his health decline to that. So I would agree, if he is fear mongering because of chlorine (pretty sure he doesn't, I read his book and he focuses mostly on Bromine in fact he tested himself only for Bromine and not Chlorine or Flourine, from what I recall) but if he is, then yeah, I'm with you, probably not a big deal for most (unless you are a swimmer).

In any case, a lot of tap water has lots of other problematic compounds, such that everyone should be drinking reverse osmosis water where possible probably. Drugs, BPA, pesticides, etc in the water supply... not just chlorine.

 

[Whichway?]

Your body naturally eliminates flourides and bromides. It can only be a big deal if you have chronic intake of fluoridated water with poor iodine intake or the same with bromides.

I disagree with you. Sure your body has detoxification mechanisms, but never before in history have they had to work so hard. Our bodies are subjected on a daily basis to far more heavy metals, pesticides, chemicals and plastics than ever before in evolutionary history.

Using iodine to remove halides, and mercury can be beneficial if it is done carefully.

I can't agree that it's not ever needed but what we can agree on is that it's probably not needed for all people and that if one were to supplement it, one should at least do tests to get the dose right and ideally have a competent doctor to does you right etc, and that it could potentially be detrimental if you don't do tests and just blindly supplement.

Yes your body frequently eliminates it but most people these days intake either fluorine, bromine, and/or chlorine on a regular basis, many times without even realizing it while eating "healthy". For example - most pesticides are bromine laden, and in fact, the average "Healthy" person probably has more bromine than the average American due to pesticides in produce, which "healthy" people will consume at higher rates. The body can not eliminate bromine at a faster pace than it gets it, without help from iodine. Actually, the body has a way easier time eliminating excess iodine than it does bromine, chlorine, or fluorine, so it's far less dangerous to have too much iodine than it is too much of the other stuff. The body can flush out 50+mg of iodine in 24 hrs (hence the loading test), but the same is not true of the other halides.

And again, the fact remains that iodine is used in every cell in the body. 300 mcg is hardly enough to cover both the needs of the thyroid, elimination of halides, AND nourishment of all several trillion cells in the body.

BTW iodine is hardly a new product, so I can't agree that it's "just to sell a product". It's healing properties have been known since the 1800's. Sure, people are trying to make money, that's what happens in a capitalist society. I don't have a problem with it, unless it's like Big Pharma which wants money at the expense of others' health. That's the difference. In fact, if you really look at the history, the same types of people who demonized Iodine also demonized saturated fats, Vitamin C, "too much sunlight", Vitamin E, dietary cholesterol, CO2, sugar. I could go on. Once you take the red pill, you'll see that this is all connected. It all angers me really, but I'd rather know than stay ignorant. BTW, as one example - the claim that Iodine was harmful was the reason Bromine was put in place of Iodine in bread. You can't tell me that Bromine is safer than Iodine. Yet, the FDA would. And we all know how much to trust the FDA.

Also, the demonization of Iodine by vested interests also was the reason Chlorine was used instead of Iodine in swimming pools - which btw, out of around 100 competitive swimmers, it was unanimous - not one of them preferred chlorine. 100% of them either preferred iodine, or no preference.

I agree with you. So did Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, the famous biochemist who discovered Vitamin C and the citric acid cycle in metabolism.

 

[Cirion]

I wish every day could be weekend. lol. I always seem to do so much better. today woke up at 98.5. I am hoping it is because I am now ultra low PUFA and ultra high SFA/PUFA ratio because I am not sure what else I can think of to why I woke up at 98.5. The only other thing to note is I stayed up really late (2 am) playing a video game with a friend, and so I slept like a rock after (was so tired) that normally I need to eat to make it through the night but I only woke up once briefly for a tablespoon of hydrogenated coconut oil and a couple of cups of OJ and then I crashed another 5 hrs easily. Had some really nice dreams too. Haha. without going into detail, I... *ahem*... had some sensual dreams, probably means my body was busy making some much needed testosterone in my sleep :P yesterday I brought coffee back too, so maybe, coffee is required for me after all. not a ton, something like 150-200 mg. seems to be maybe the sweet spot for me

I am now around 1-1.5 gram of PUFA a day, but 50-70 gram of SFA a day so like a 50:1 SFA:PUFA ratio, far ahead of what is likely necessary but I have so many issues like weight to lose, that I have to take it to the extreme. I believe Haidut mentioned something like a 15:1 SFA:PUFA ratio being ideal, so I'm far ahead of the game with my 50-60:1 ratio.

 

[Cirion]

Allright, through incessant tracking of both nutrients and moods and sleep I am finally starting to make some realizations. Some maybe obvious to others but I can be thick headed lol

-> Your mood going to bed has a huge impact on sleep. I noted last evening I felt almost euphoric going to bed, through good nutrition throughout the day. I slept almost 7 hours without waking up, a rarity for me. Usually I wake up after no more than 3-4 hr of sleep.

-> If you wake up feeling bad, almost universally, it is because your blood sugar completely ran out. And I mean COMPLETELY. Not just slightly. That means when you wake up, a mere cup or two of OJ is NOT going to cut it if your glucose stores are ZERO (given that we can hold at least a couple hundred grams of carbs). Countless nights I have tried to bring glucose up with just a Tbsp of coconut oil & a cup or two of OJ with some salt and maybe a tbsp of gelatin and it simply does not work. Ever. Just not enough. It'll be enough to get back to bed, but never enough to restore glucose levels and thus restorative sleep. Restorative sleep should be the goal not just sleep period. Sleep that isn't restorative is a waste of time.

-> I've noted that the FEW Times where I have had truly restorative sleep, I actually feel GOOD even on times I wake up in the middle of the night, usually I feel groggy if I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the restroom. Feeling bad upon waking = crap blood sugar, whether thats the middle of the night or in the morning.

-> Along the second point, if you've woken up a bit early, but still gotten an okay amount of sleep (let's say 6+ hrs)... it's probably best to just start your day at this point in time. Yeah you might be a little groggy, but almost without fail, if I decide to go back to bed (and not eat a LARGE amount of food (200-300+ gram carb)), when I wake up again, I will feel WORSE.

-> I also have come to realize that mouth breathing also will start to happen once glucose stores ran out. Last night when I woke up, I had no dry mouth (so no mouth breathing) but then I went back to bed for 2 hrs, felt worse & noted I had a dry mouth. So really, taping the mouth probably isn't necessary... as long as you keep your glucose stores topped off.

So I think from now on, my strategy will essentially be do my best nutrition wise during the day, and then force myself to just start my day if I wake up early, to minimize time spent with low blood sugar.

Also now experimenting with more uncouplers right in the morning when I wake up to help my metabolism turn on. Coffee, aspirin, and vitamin E for now. This trio gets me warm pretty quick and rather sweaty. Also turning on a couple of my 300W incandescent lights.

 

[InChristAlone]

Yeah going to bed anxious or worried is a surefire way to wake up feeling bad. If I'm in a bad mood I do a gratitude journal. Really helps.

 

[Cirion]

That's good. Yeah anything that can help put you in a better state of mind is helpful before bed.

I am now trying to get more consistent with gelatin. The main thing holding me back is I HATE the texture and consistency of gelatin in liquids normally.

I am going to try to make some home made jello that doesn't taste horrible and has good texture to try to get myself to eat more of it.

 

[Cirion]

Figured I would update since it has been a little while. Some new discoveries/experiences

- Taking 36 gram gelatin a day religiously. Seems very beneficial.

- Halting my ultra low PUFA experiment for now. It eliminated lots of foods and resulted in me feeling worse overall. I'll still be relatively low PUFA, but not ultra orthorexic about it.

- Increasing dietary fat. My ultra low puFA experiment made me realize I was becoming dietary fat deficient and didn't feel good. Bringing fats back has resulted in my libido and mood slowly starting to return, verifying my suspicions.

- Being better about balancing proteins with gelatin / bcaa's / tyrosine, taurine etc. This is very important. This is talked about on the forums regularly but I haven't really appreciated its importance until recently. This also has impact on my mood and libido.

 

[Cirion]

I've now quit virtually all supplementation. I now think supplementation at best does nothing, and at worst hurts you, in most case, especially if you are "just guessing" at what you're deficient in.

Taking the simpler approach. Does something make me feel worse? It's going to get the axe. Does it make me feel better? Keep it. This becomes much easier too in the context of no supplements - easier to tell what's actually helpful or harmful.

First thing that got the axe - Ice cream, reduced intake of milk (Planning to buy a milk skimmer and try skimming my own milk soon tho), coconut oil (mostly, still 1-2 tbsp. a day tho)

Current staples: Gelatin, Grapes, (some) milk (see above), maple syrup, honey, orange juice, cheese, beef, mexican cola, mushrooms, butter, coconut oil

Current thoughts on deficiencies: Minerals, CO2, B vitamins (Thiamine?). I suspect thiamine deficiency because OJ seems really good to me lately and addictive. Drinking lots of it lately and it tastes good. CO2 suspected because I really enjoy Mexican coke and find myself craving it. Minerals because I have been doing pretty well on beef. Though last two days I have craved it less, possibly because now I am more mineral replete than I was.

I find a cheese + jello "meal" to be a really quick way to charge the metabolism. (Jello made with gelatin, OJ, and honey). Excellent midnight snack.

 

[Cirion]

I definitely made the right choice to ditch ice cream.

I got my waking temp back up to 98.2F this morning, when it was down to 97.8. A 0.4F gain from eliminating ice cream, and also lowering milk intake.

I am about to try grass fed - non homogenized milk though and use a professional cream separator to skim it myself. I am also gonna try skimming my own goat's milk. I have a feeling I will do a lot better on this than the crap CAFO milk sold in most stores, plus I can eliminate the added vitamins this way.

Even the "cheap" skimmer cost me $140, so hopefully it's worth it. I really would like to make milk work though, since its by far the best way to get calcium and protein without PUFA.

 

[Cirion]

My milk skimmer came in but annoyed, it doesn't work, that's what I get from getting a Chinese brand. Lesson learned lol.

But so what I have been doing hasn't been working. I know it sounds like I have jumped from one change to the other, and that's not wrong lol, but clearly I gained a LOT of fat and no changes I have been making have either affected my well-being long term nor removed the body fat. Intuitively I just know that simply skimming my milk and/or lowering vitamin A intake isn't going to do the trick. I have learned to trust my gut, my subconscious knows best.

The other day another user posted a vegan video by Delgado, and I dunno what it is, call it a sixth sense, but something told me I MUST watch this video. Well I watched it and it was very compelling. Now I'm going to remove (or at least drastically lower) my meat and dairy protein intake. And go not only low protein but also low fat. I will still apply many peat principles like low PUFA, good calcium:phosphorus ratio where possible, ample sugar and fruits, although I don't like veggies so I dunno if I will have many. Maybe time to pull out the crock pot again? For now I'm still having Gelatin as well. But no meat or dairy. For now it's mostly rice and fruit and syrups, juice. Depending how this goes I may add potatoes and tubers later.

Here is the video if anyone is curious


The thing is for the most part he agrees with Peat. Peat is not a fan of muscle meat either, he just doesn't say don't eat it period, but to balance it with gelatin. Peat also thinks you need at least 80 gram of protein.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion how low in protein are you gonna go? That sucks that the milk skimmers not working, you mentioning your purchase of it was my first time hearing of such a thing (I mean outside of industrial ones), I was maybe thinking of trying one out in the future.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion how low in protein are you gonna go? That sucks that the milk skimmers not working, you mentioning your purchase of it was my first time hearing of such a thing (I mean outside of industrial ones), I was maybe thinking of trying one out in the future.

I am probably going to experiment with something moderately low to start let's say 50-75g a day, which is roughly half of what I'm used to having. If that goes well I may experiment with even lower.

If you watch the video, that guy is VERY athletic, and eats <30 gram of protein a day. Honestly, that's what sold me. He is 62 yrs old, with 10x more athleticism and energy than me and most 20 y/o's, even most 20 y/o athletes, and eats <30 gram of protein a day. If that doesn't dispel the myth of needing lots of protein a day nothing will.

Two things about protein surprised me - he said that even rice and fruit are "Complete" protein sources, as are beans. I had always been brainwashed to think only a few proteins were "Complete". That and 90% of protein is recycled. The body does use about 200 gram of protein a day BUT 180 gram of it is recycled, meaning we only need to eat 20 gram. In fact he took it to the next level. he went so far as to say there is basically no such thing as protein deficiency. Only calorie deficiency. Of course people in third world countries experience muscle wasting - they only eat like 500 calories a day. This would explain why some vegans may become weak and lose muscle - not because of protein deficiency, but because of calorie deficiency. Of course the body will eat up your protein in the context of caloric restriction. To be clear he does not advocate low calorie. He even makes a point that his meals are HUGE, not just some cute little salad, but a ginormous helping.

Two other good reasons to skip on animal meat - estrogens & dehydration. One point he made is it is impossible to keep hydrated on an animal meat based diet. You constantly pee out ammonia and uric acid which keeps your urine yellow almost all the time. I in fact experience this a lot. This also over-loads your kidneys and eventually may cause them to fail. I am starting to think Protein overload is why I am bloated 24/7. It promotes estrogen dominance which makes you retain water (exacerbated because protein is dehydrating which makes your body want to hold on to water ironically enough).

I want to see some of his studies to learn more, but he claimed that positive nitrogen balance can be achieved with 20-30 gram of protein in the context of a high calorie diet consisting primarily of carbohydrate.

Feel free to try a skimmer - but I'd get a high quality one. Don't be like me and buy Chinese hahah

 

[Runenight201]

God speed you’ll definitely lose weight on that diet but fasting will be practically impossible and sleep may suffer.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion "If that doesn't dispel the myth of needing lots of protein a day nothing will." One guys n=1 is almost meaningless. Herschel Walker says he only eats one meal a day of soup and salad. What about all the studies showing muscle synthesis increasing linearly up to 1.8g/kg of body weight (sometimes slightly lower, sometimes slightly higher)? You need a large amount of protein to keep albumin levels in the ideal range too.

Protein is needed for proper liver functioning

High Protein Diet Prevents & Reverses Fatty Liver Disease (steatosis)

High Protein intake increases muscle mass and lowers fat mass even without training

High Protein Intake Increases Muscle Mass Even W/o Training

“A few years ago, most of the nutritional problems that I saw were caused by physicians, by refined convenience foods, and by poverty. Recently, most of the problems seem to be caused by badly designed vegetarian diets, or by acceptance of the idea that 40 grams of protein per day is sufficient. The liver and other organs deteriorate rapidly on low-protein diets. Observe the faces of the wheat-grass promoters, the millet-eaters, and the ‘anti-mucus’ dieters, and other low-protein people. Do they look old for their age?” -Dr. Ray Peat, PhD

All the classic old school body builders (pre roids and post roids introduction on to the scene) recommend at least 1 gram per pound of body weight. Just watched a video from one of the old school body building legends Leroy Colbert (pre steroid era, claimed to be completely natural with some semi-decent evidence to back it up although there’s a possibility he wasn’t) recommends 1g-2g of protein per pound of bodyweight and mentioned that it was the deciding factor in an individuals muscle development. Below is a picture of him. The 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight is actually in line with Peat's ideas:
"For intense exercise, it's about a gram per pound of body weight." - RP @tca300 also mentioned asking ray peat about the 1g/lb of bodyweight and Ray said it was safe.

I always notice in increase in muscle synthesis with more protein and haven't personally found a point where the increases have leveled off (although they are subtle I sure as hell don't look like leroy colbert lol). When I consumed only 80g of protein a day, I lost a decent amount of muscle mass and I would get pain in my muscles (not muscle soreness) if I tried to do a decent workout. I've been shooting for one g/lb a day. The reason why you gained so much weight is because you're hypothyroid. Thyroid hormone is the primary determiner of the metabolic rate. The truth is you could have (and should have) avoided all of your weight gain with an adequate dose of thyroid hormone (proper amount, proper brand, proper T3:T4 ratio). That was a hard pill for me to swallow, I gained a lot of weight too while trying to improve my health. Now with the right thyroid dose I've lost 15 pounds in about 3 months eating non-stop around the clock with a very high caloric intake. Plus I think you're relying on a caloric surplus to increase T3 levels but that fails when your weight increases, because the surplus isn't a surplus anymore (then you need to increase you caloric intake again for the same effect). Anyway wish you the best, sorry if I come of as dismissive or rude but I get frustrated with hearing stuff like this. And I do respect the desire (need?) to experiment and “see things for yourself”.

 

[Cirion]

God speed you’ll definitely lose weight on that diet but fasting will be practically impossible and sleep may suffer.

Oh I'm not fasting.

So far it hasn't been too difficult. The only noticeable thing is that hunger has been higher. I no longer view hunger as a bad thing. It means I am burning fuel IMO. But I'm eating plenty, still aiming for at least 4000 cal a day, but virtually all from carbs and I am still eating some gelatin, but no meats or dairy.

 

[Cirion]

@ilikecats trust me I know about the research that claims all that. It turns out that positive nitrogen balance is not a 100% reliable metric though. Anyway, high protein hasn't worked for me. It's time for something new. At the very least not animal protein and dairy. If all that were true, what about the greats that ate hardly any protein? I'll go through the video again sometime later and quote you some of the names he brought up.


I don't think it's normal to have to rely on thyroid to get better especially at only age 31... what brand of thyroid do you take though? I am thinking someone hypothyroid should probably get almost pure T3 since any T4 they take will likely turn into rT3.

Also, I don't really workout anymore so I am really not too worried about any extra "needed" protein. Still no energy to workout.

 

[Cirion]

Allright found one big name for ya - Mike Mentzer.

"In his book, "The Mentzer Method to Fitness", Mike Mentzer writes that...

.."Protein requirements depend almost entirely on your body weight, not your level of physical activity, because it is not used as fuel as long as the body′s energy supply is adequate. The rule of thumb is one gram of protein per day for every two pounds of bodyweight.

There is no reason to buy expensive supplements since the amount of protein can be obtained from any well-balanced diet that includes meat, fish, or dairy products.

I maintain my weight at about 220 pounds and consume about 60 grams of protein a day, less than recommended for my weight, and I′m still growing muscle.""

Mike Mentzer - Wikipedia

"Mentzer believed that carbohydrates should make up the bulk of the caloric intake, 50–60%, rather than protein as others preferred. Mentzer's reasoning was simple: to build 10 pounds of muscle in a year, a total of 6000 extra calories needed to be ingested throughout the year, because one pound of muscle contains 600 calories. That averages 16 extra calories per day, and only four of them needed to be from protein—because muscle is 22% protein, about one quarter.[9]"

 

[Cirion]

Keep in mind that he was a freaking top end bodybuilder, probably took steroids, and still only needed 60 grams of protein to get HUGE.

I will grant you that 25-30 gram is probably too low for most weightlifters unless you have a small frame. Delgado was short and pretty light, I think like 150-160 lb? So that's probably why he only needs 30 grams.. 25-30 gram is generally probably only OK for someone sedentary and trying to lose weight on a high carb based vegan diet or someone with a small frame.

It does seem like the sweet spot for bodybuilding/weightlifting is somewhere in the 50-75 gram range to be safe. And this is very easy to reach even with rice, fruit, lentils, beans because you're going to be eating 4000-6000 calories anyway.