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Mutaflor

Discussion in 'Digestion, Gut Flora' started by Tarmander, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    I have not seen much posted on this "probiotic."

    It is actually an E. Coli strain discovered in the early 20th century, and found to help with a variety of digestive problems.

    In doing research on it, there are many accounts of people with UC, SIBO, IBS, and CFS that claim this strain was the only probiotic that ever actually did anything for their symptoms.

    I believe it works similar to other antibiotic bacteria strains, killing off pathogenic bacteria.

    Interesting thing is lactobacillus seems to kill it off. I know there have been some haidut posts on the possible deleterious effects of too much lactobacillus. CFS people tend to react very poorly to lactobacillus as well.

    I plan on trying it here in the next couple months and posting it here when I can buy some as it is a bit pricey. If in the US you have to get it shipped from Canada: Mutaflor Probiotic 60 Caps 30 Day Supply with E. coli strain Nissle 1917

    Here are some interesting posts about it from Ken L.

    Mutaflor Probiotic Feedback

    Mutaflor: Growing your own

    How long do probiotics stay around?

    If anyone has experiences with this strain, please post
     
  2. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    First experiment with this has gone pretty well.

    I noticed two main things, better sleep and better skin quality.

    A couple years ago, there were a few threads on this forum about glycogen storage, and how to increase it. Basically people needed to eat every few hours or they started to feel bad in some way...sometimes every hour.

    I had a similar problem. I would wake up after 5 hours of sleep and feel low blood sugar and be wide awake. I would need to eat something and hopefully get back to sleep, but sometimes not.

    I remember trying "Peat" strategies, like eating a lot of sugar to increase glycogen. I tried cups of sugar, juice, OJ, etc. Nothing worked and sometimes made things worse.

    I now know why this is bad advice for people who have compromised health. Yes sugar will normally restore glycogen, but in people with compromised health, their gut bacteria is off. More sugar makes it more off...sometimes way more off.

    In fact, I cannot imagine anyone being in a situation where Peat's advice would be any good on this score. If you are fit and have no problem handling carbs, your hunger will guide you when your glycogen is depleted. You are probably drinking gatorade or something similar anyways. If you are sick and have low metabolism, your gut bugs will mess up your intake of sugar.

    Here was the experiment I did:

    I took Mutaflor, 1 pill 3x per day. I noticed my sleep was improving. I could go to bed around 9, maybe fall asleep within 30 minutes, and sleep in until...7! Holy sheit I haven't slept like that since I was a teenager. This good sleep crept up on me, slowly improving over a few nights.

    I wasn't sure if I could attribute this to MutaFlor though, so I switched to another probiotic I wanted to try called Securil (https://www.amazon.com/Nutricology-...d_r=XKMACFRRVRCDQNGV61ED&psc=1&qid=1576854269)

    This is propionbacterium freudenreichii, and it releases propionic acid which feeds/benefits bifidus bacteria...supposedly a "good" bacteria in our colons. Within two days of switching to this new probiotic, I was waking up at 4:30am again, unable to fall back asleep, feeling low blood sugar and needing some type of carbs.

    I switched back to Mutaflor, and after one night's rest not going well, the next night I slept 10 hours. The night after I slept 9 hours.

    If you want to learn about this strain, this is a good study: Role and mechanisms of action of Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 in the maintenance of remission in ulcerative colitis patients: An update

    Lastly I asked Ray about it and this was his response:

    upload_2019-12-21_8-2-30.png
     
  3. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    Thanks for sharing your experience!
    Never thought I'd contemplate putting e. Coli in my body :D but I'll see if I can find this in Europe as I have similar sleep issues:/
     
  4. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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  5. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    If you search Ken L.'s website, you can find the different versions of Mutaflor that they sell in france/italy. It isn't any different but it is called different.
     
  6. Blossom

    Blossom Moderator

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    Thank you for sharing your experience @Tarmander.
     
  7. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    This does not colonize the gut?

    So one would have to keep taking it.

    I see that it can be made at home in a yogurt maker.

    I ordered some. Will post on results.
     
  8. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    So I researched a little and it seems most of it is produced in germany ,guess I'm lucky :)
    It's cheaper here fortunately, I got the smallest package for 20 euros.

    The reviews on the German pharmacies are also pretty enthusiastic! Only positive!

    I only read one comment of guy on a page that you posted ,who said it worked great for 1 month and then stopped working .

    For full disclosure there seems to be some adapting / evolving of the bacteria going on
    Probiotic bacteria evolve inside mice’s GI tracts | The Source | Washington University in St. Louis
    But the guy on the website said its not clear if this applies to human as well since its originally a human bacteria so might behave differently in mice.

    Nevertheless given the guy that expericemed diminishing results and the study it might be better to rotate this stuff like 4-6 weeks on ,same time off .
    Although some people seem to take it for months without problems.

    There was also a recommendation somewhere that it increased its effectiveness when combined with b. Subtilis and l. Rhamnosus iirc.
     
  9. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    It is supposed to last in the gut for a few months, but certain antibiotics and other probiotic strains affect them. Like I mentioned earlier, lactobacillus apparently puts the hurt on these guys. I have yet to experiment by going off Mutaflor and seeing how long good sleep lasts.

    This guy's story says his benefits lasted about a week before they began to fade
    https://injuryhealthblog.com/mutaflor-the-miracle-probiotic-thats-hard-to-get/
     
  10. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Ken L. recommends pulsing it, and then switching to other soil based strains for CFS. I think being on it all the time would get expensive. I am hoping I can pulse it strongly, maybe 3-6 capsules per day, and then maybe take 1-2 capsules every other day to get the benefits.

    In my experiments, I tried 6 capsules a day on the last day I was doing it and did not notice much difference over 3 capsules.

    Let us know how it works for ya
     
  11. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    Okay, good to know so I probably don't need to go super high ,dosage wise.
    Itll be really expensive anyway on 6 caps /day.
    Maybe it could be taken similar to peats anti biotics recommendation, so low dose for 2-3 times a week ...
    I will ! Probably going to receive it next week ( dont know because of Christmas though)
     
  12. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    pulsing would be at least 2 weeks I believe
     
  13. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    Yeah probably. I read of someone who is fine with taking it every 3 days,but it might just be that the person just doesnt really need it anymore. I've also read about several people now that only needed one course and then were fine afterwards...
     
  14. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    That would be sweet
     
  15. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    Thanks for sharing, I might try it. Whenever I eat something hard to digest like nuts and whole grains I get cramping with A LOT of stool (where normally I enjoy having less stool). I wonder if the undigested fiberous food feeds a bacteria strain I've had for literally decades.
     
  16. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    thank you
     
  17. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Yeah that is something I am getting now...these gut strains can last your whole life. Many of the antibiotics out there are good for certain strains and actually help other strains by killing their natural competitors.

    That Ken L. guy has really shown me that sometimes cycling different antibiotics and certain probiotics can fundamentally change your gut microbiome, and possibly in life changing ways. People with CFS can literally become new people by doing this.
     
  18. somuch4food

    somuch4food Member

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    I think the utopia of a clean gut that Ray Peat likes is difficult to achieve unless being rigorous with diet or taking antibiotics.

    The microbiome seems to be important and mine seems to like oats. Whenever I up my intake, my bowel and health get better.

    I do think probiotics work, but the best is probably to find the prebiotics that match your ideal gut and tweak with probiotics to kickstart the change. L. reuteri seems to help the gut of my newborn.

    I've seen a few articles praising Rhamnosus as well.
     
  19. sugarbabe

    sugarbabe Member

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    I was on antibiotics a lot for strep throat as a kid, I think it was the trigger for my IBS. Thankfully I have been able to be mostly cramp free managing my diet stress levels. I am a prime example for the low residue type diets, keeping the bacteria feeding frenzy to a minimum. Thankfully sugar doesn't seem to make it further than my small intestine as Ray has suggested many times. But it is definitely an issue for some people who seem to do horrible on high fructan diets.

    A while ago I tried those soil derived probiotics by garden of life and had serious herxing I never took it again! lol
     
  20. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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