Music

[energyandstruct]

Agreed. You bring up many key points. Literacy and familiarity (structure and architecture within the reference points) have a great deal to do with one's capacity to offer criticism of any value.

Besides, I have yet to encounter anyone who bandies about the terms tonal and atonal as knowing anything about harmony. For example, the study claims "Atonal music was defined as any musical production (roughly dated after 1910: from Schönberg onward) that avoided a tonal center or used multiple tonal centers simultaneously." Huh?!?! What does this nonsense even mean?

Hah. That reminds me. Have you ever read Slonimsky's hilarious Lexicon of Musical Invective?

I have read some of that slonimsky. SLonimsky also wrote a book of all possible scales and harmonic/melodic configurations that john coltrane used to practice out of.

Yes I agree the definition of tonal and atonal is really vague here.

 

[x-ray peat]

Agreed. You bring up many key points. Literacy and familiarity (structure and architecture within the reference points) have a great deal to do with one's capacity to offer criticism of any value.

Besides, I have yet to encounter anyone who bandies about the terms tonal and atonal as knowing anything about harmony. For example, the study claims "Atonal music was defined as any musical production (roughly dated after 1910: from Schönberg onward) that avoided a tonal center or used multiple tonal centers simultaneously." Huh?!?! What does this nonsense even mean?

My criticism has to do with biology and health, not with “literacy and familiarity (structure and architecture within the reference points).”

Talk about nonsense. Feminists and other post-modern academic charlatans make the same claim about the "holiness" of their fields as well; opinions of the profane are equally unwelcome.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

What do we think of Chopin w/ regards to tonal vs atonal? My uneducated feeling is he's for the most part tonal, but at critical junctures, he throws in atonal elements. This creates a tantalizing effect, your brain desperately wants to fill in the discord with order, it tries alertly to predict when the next atonal note shall come, inevitably sometimes guessing correctly, leading to a nice dopamine reward. That's my feeling anyway, I freakin love Chopin.

***Skip to 6:10

 

[energyandstruct]

My criticism has to do with biology and health, not with “literacy and familiarity (structure and architecture within the reference points).”

Talk about nonsense. Feminists and other post-modern academic charlatans make the same claim about the "holiness" of their fields as well; opinions of the profane are equally unwelcome.

lol

 

[energyandstruct]

My criticism has to do with biology and health, not with “literacy and familiarity (structure and architecture within the reference points).”

Talk about nonsense. Feminists and other post-modern academic charlatans make the same claim about the "holiness" of their fields as well; opinions of the profane are equally unwelcome.

what's atonal can be sacred--messiaen's music is based in catholic mysticism and is often "atonal" in the sense that you mean

 

[energyandstruct]

My criticism has to do with biology and health, not with “literacy and familiarity (structure and architecture within the reference points).”

Talk about nonsense. Feminists and other post-modern academic charlatans make the same claim about the "holiness" of their fields as well; opinions of the profane are equally unwelcome.

you have never provided a study that says atonal music has long term negative health outcomes, you've made logical leaps to try and say that studies that say something different support your point. If you find a study that shows atonal music having long term negative health outcomes, i'd be interested in it.

 

[x-ray peat]

you have never provided a study that says atonal music has long term negative health outcomes, you've made logical leaps to try and say that studies that say something different support your point. If you find a study that shows atonal music having long term negative health outcomes, i'd be interested in it.

If you are interested in that then by all means try and find it. Most health studies by necessity are limited to short term experiments and extrapolated over time.

Ive presented several short term studies on the harmful effects of atonal music which include increased cortisol levels, increased blood pressure, fear brachardia etc. There are plenty of studies demonstrating the negative long term effect of these symptoms. It is not a logical leap but a logical conclusion.

 

[x-ray peat]

what's atonal can be sacred--messiaen's music is based in catholic mysticism and is often "atonal" in the sense that you mean

I dont think you got what I meant by the "holiness" of an academic field.

 

[energyandstruct]

What do we think of Chopin w/ regards to tonal vs atonal? My uneducated feeling is he's for the most part tonal, but at critical junctures, he throws in atonal elements. This creates a tantalizing effect, your brain desperately wants to fill in the discord with order, it tries alertly to predict when the next atonal note shall come, inevitably sometimes guessing correctly, leading to a nice dopamine reward. That's my feeling anyway, I freakin love Chopin.

***Skip to 6:10

I think chopin has a lot of chromaticism in his music but is tonal. but the chromaticism may be why you hear discord, or he may use dissonant chords like diminished chords that then resolve.

 

[ilikecats]

“Even the dissonance from a basic chord alteration like a flat 9 or a sharp five on the five chord of a major 2-5-1 is enough to raise cortisol, serotonin and the inflammatory cytokines. I think in some contexts jazz music could be pro-metabolic but unfortunately most jazz players don’t play diatonically enough and it risks damaging the listeners health.”- Ray Peat Phd

 

[Regina]

What do we think of Chopin w/ regards to tonal vs atonal? My uneducated feeling is he's for the most part tonal, but at critical junctures, he throws in atonal elements. This creates a tantalizing effect, your brain desperately wants to fill in the discord with order, it tries alertly to predict when the next atonal note shall come, inevitably sometimes guessing correctly, leading to a nice dopamine reward. That's my feeling anyway, I freakin love Chopin.

***Skip to 6:10

Ah lovely. Chopin is wonderfully chromatic with many "non-harmonic" embellishing tones within a tonal harmonic framework. You can hear similar in Bach. For example, certain passages in the Brandenberg's have hilariously 'heavy-metal'-type cadenzas but the bass line pedals clearly track out diatonic harmonic progressions.

 

[Regina]

I think chopin has a lot of chromaticism in his music but is tonal. but the chromaticism may be why you hear discord, or he may use dissonant chords like diminished chords that then resolve.

+1

 

[Regina]

“Even the dissonance from a basic chord alteration like a flat 9 or a sharp five on the five chord of a major 2-5-1 is enough to raise cortisol, serotonin and the inflammatory cytokines. I think in some contexts jazz music could be pro-metabolic but unfortunately most jazz players don’t play diatonically enough and it risks damaging the listeners health.”- Ray Peat Phd

Jazzers like to call them "hairy" chords.

 

[energyandstruct]

LOL

 

[griesburner]

i make music myself (playing guitar) so i can say i love music. But i hate music theory . i like all other scientific stuff about nutrition etc but i am very sure for myself that music is such a subjective thing that its hard to study its effects on adult humans. Cause what you like or dislike is more complex and the cause of your decisions in life and experiences you made. So i dont trust any study showing some effects on humans that are practical relevant here. Today for example i made a nice experience listening to some very sad rock ballads and i felt my heart opened up and i got tears and felt strong emotions that i havent felt in a decade. it felt very good to let go of that and that was for sure not related to "estrogen" or something . Cause after that i felt waaay better and full of energy. i think music has the ability to heal if you like what you hear and it goes to your soul. If you dislike something, just dont listen to it and dont listen to something only cause a study said so. I tried listening to classical music cause i wanted to try what effects it had on me and i just couldnt stand it cause i disliked it too much. And no study in the world could convince me that its healthy for me to hear it :)

 

[Zpol]

sad intense songwriting

made me think... (possibly stuff you've heard already)
Tyler


King of carrot flowers


Happiness is overrated



thank you for the Jesus Christ link, I'm checking them out now.
Speaking of...I've been curious to hear Danny Roddy's band, not sure if he's even still in it but curious to hear their sound.

 

[energyandstruct]

made me think... (possibly stuff you've heard already)
Tyler


King of carrot flowers


Happiness is overrated



thank you for the Jesus Christ link, I'm checking them out now.
Speaking of...I've been curious to hear Danny Roddy's band, not sure if he's even still in it but curious to hear their sound.

actually been listening to neutral milk hotel demos recently

 

[Zpol]

actually been listening to neutral milk hotel demos recently

Nice. Love em. I think they broke up for good now, sadly. What I have by them I will keep forever.

Demo's are great IMO, maybe not all polished and shiny like the album versions but I guess that's what I like about them.

 

[x-ray peat]

“Even the dissonance from a basic chord alteration like a flat 9 or a sharp five on the five chord of a major 2-5-1 is enough to raise cortisol, serotonin and the inflammatory cytokines. I think in some contexts jazz music could be pro-metabolic but unfortunately most jazz players don’t play diatonically enough and it risks damaging the listeners health.”- Ray Peat Phd

nice find. Inspired me to do a light search.

http://l-i-g-h-t.com/transcript-378
ANDREW MURRAY: Okay thanks for you call - so Dr Peat how about music therapy?

RAY PEAT: I think it is something much more subtle but more powerful than endorphins. I think the very structure of nerves is a kind of resonance and carries possibly like as a semi-conducting system, it carries a function that’s analogous to the objective music outside the body and so when you give the organism a chance to relax and begin to respond to the music, you are re-enforcing or enabling a process that is very basic to the life of the brain cells and all of the living organism. If you believed in the mechanistic cognitive science artificial intelligence interpretation of consciousness, you would see the present moment as an infinitesimally thin division between past and future that’s moving along like a line on the grass analogous to a certain measurement of depth, width and height, except moving along the timeline. But the unreality of that, the complete nonsensicalness of it, in fact, you can see when you whistle a tune or listen to music or see a performer who is doing in an intricately whole and organized way a song or other performance, a director who can organize everything in the orchestra to produce the desired effect is having to see where the particular moment is going and where it has been, the pace of the music and all of the qualities that are developing in each moment, depend on what you’re perceiving to come and has recently passed. And so the brain is like a musical composition. It doesn’t exist only in the present and the moment of consciousness spans time - so that you’re simultaneously present in an infinity of these infinitesimally thin presences.


http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/william-blake.shtml

Every communicative act is original, and understanding it is an invention, a projection, an imaginative synthesis. We can sometimes finish another person’s sentence, the way we anticipate the notes in a melody; we predict the intended meaning. If the symbols carried the meaning in a passive rationalistic way, the person receiving the symbols would receive nothing new. Intellect is a process of imaginative synthesis, or it is nothing.

 

[ilikecats]

@x-ray peat It was a joke I made that quote up.