Music

[energyandstruct]

fetuses also can discriminate between their mother's language and other languages, which makes me think a) that they learn affinities/imprint familiar vs unfamiliar patterns quickly, or b) that there are epigenetic qualities to learning language, which would make me think that the same is possible with other cultural forms, like music

 

[energyandstruct]

Physiological correlates of bereavement and the impact of bereavement interventions

grief causes really really intense health risks. yet grief is an inherent part of love, since nothing lasts forever. therefore we could say that love is bad because it eventually leads to intense stressors like high blood pressure

 

[energyandstruct]

There are quite a few studies but here is one to get you started
Non-expert listeners show decreased heart rate and increased blood pressure (fear bradycardia) in response to atonal music

and just to clarify, binaural beats are not the same as atonal music

did you even read the title of the article you posted? it says non-expert listeners. that implies that the response is in part, at least, due to unfamiliarity. Which is exactly what I said. If you played atonal music for schoenberg, do you think it would cause him such a stress response?

 

[energyandstruct]

and then we get into even deeper semantics. I find myself defending music that's literally atonal, like 12 tone music, but rock music is almost never atonal. In fact, I would bet that infants would respond well to rock music as they respond well to simple, familiar melodic patterns. Rock music may be discordant if that means aggressive or loud, but is generally based around simple melodic refrains, unless we're talking about black metal or noise rock.

 

[energyandstruct]

I think you missed my point.

Look I'm sorry about my tone, I realized it's kind of aggressive. I'm not angry at you, I'm irritated by the idea that what is atonal and discordant is bad for you.

 

[energyandstruct]

There are quite a few studies but here is one to get you started
Non-expert listeners show decreased heart rate and increased blood pressure (fear bradycardia) in response to atonal music

and just to clarify, binaural beats are not the same as atonal music

from the study you posted:
"As for the effects of music-induced feelings on the autonomic nervous system (ANS) the available psychophysiology literature is rather inconsistent (Krabs et al., 2015). For example, some studies demonstrated an increase in heart rate with arousing music and a decrease with tranquilizing music (e.g., Bernardi et al., 2006), and others reported increases in heart rate with arousing as well as tranquilizing music (e.g., Iwanaga et al., 2005). Thus, one intervening factor might be the music-evoked emotional valence. Several studies reported that compared to negative valence (displeasure), positive valence (pleasure) is associated with higher heart rate (e.g., Sammler et al., 2007). However, other studies (e.g., Etzel et al., 2006) failed to find effects of music-evoked emotional valence on heart rate. Again, it has been shown that listening to music can reduce pain intensity and systolic blood pressure in patients during post-operative recovery (Chen et al., 2015). Furthermore, it can reduce stress levels and heart rate in patients with coronary heart disease and cancer (Tan et al., 2015), but no reductions in heart rate or blood pressure in healthy controls were caused by listening to music. In another study by Radstaak et al. (2014), it was shown that although listening to both relaxing and happy music improved subjects’ moods, it did not diminish systolic blood pressure."

 

[energyandstruct]

Look I'm sorry about my tone, I realized it's kind of aggressive. I'm not angry at you, I'm irritated by the idea that what is atonal and discordant is bad for you.

the Platonist idea that music which is soothing should be promoted for the well-being of the masses, and vice versa, strikes me as what nietzsche would consider "slave morality".

 

[x-ray peat]

your point seems pretty clear. you think that discordant, atonal music is bad for people. I think that's silly.

no that wasn't the point you were responding to. I was refuting your assertion that the negative effect seem in atonal music can be explained by experience and expectations. The studies on fetuses and infants proves this is not the case.
here is one of these studies.
The development of evaluative responses to music:: Infants prefer to listen to consonance over dissonance - ScienceDirect

 

[energyandstruct]

no that wasn't the point you were responding to. I was refuting your assertion that the negative effect seem in atonal music can be explained by experience and expectations. The studies on fetuses and infants proves this is not the case.
here is one of these studies.
The development of evaluative responses to music:: Infants prefer to listen to consonance over dissonance - ScienceDirect

The fact that infants prefer something shows nothing about what is good for adult listeners, and besides, your original point was about rock music, which you called "atonal" despite the fact that it is more tonal and less chromatic than many forms of european classical music.

 

[x-ray peat]

did you even read the title of the article you posted? it says non-expert listeners. that implies that the response is in part, at least, due to unfamiliarity. Which is exactly what I said. If you played atonal music for schoenberg, do you think it would cause him such a stress response?

yes I do. Atonal music causes a stress response in that the brain needs to work harder to make sense of the music. If you have some studies that show otherwise please post them. Otherwise you are just repeating your opinion about research you dont like

 

[energyandstruct]

no that wasn't the point you were responding to. I was refuting your assertion that the negative effect seem in atonal music can be explained by experience and expectations. The studies on fetuses and infants proves this is not the case.
here is one of these studies.
The development of evaluative responses to music:: Infants prefer to listen to consonance over dissonance - ScienceDirect

in fact, i responded to your point by showing how the study you posted earlier is not definitive and implies that familiarity plays a role in the response to atonal music, even implying it in the title itself.

 

[x-ray peat]

from the study you posted:
"As for the effects of music-induced feelings on the autonomic nervous system (ANS) the available psychophysiology literature is rather inconsistent (Krabs et al., 2015). For example, some studies demonstrated an increase in heart rate with arousing music and a decrease with tranquilizing music (e.g., Bernardi et al., 2006), and others reported increases in heart rate with arousing as well as tranquilizing music (e.g., Iwanaga et al., 2005). Thus, one intervening factor might be the music-evoked emotional valence. Several studies reported that compared to negative valence (displeasure), positive valence (pleasure) is associated with higher heart rate (e.g., Sammler et al., 2007). However, other studies (e.g., Etzel et al., 2006) failed to find effects of music-evoked emotional valence on heart rate. Again, it has been shown that listening to music can reduce pain intensity and systolic blood pressure in patients during post-operative recovery (Chen et al., 2015). Furthermore, it can reduce stress levels and heart rate in patients with coronary heart disease and cancer (Tan et al., 2015), but no reductions in heart rate or blood pressure in healthy controls were caused by listening to music. In another study by Radstaak et al. (2014), it was shown that although listening to both relaxing and happy music improved subjects’ moods, it did not diminish systolic blood pressure."

I dont see any reference to atonal vs tonal. Obviously these researchers took these findings into account before they came to their own conclusions about atonal music.

 

[energyandstruct]

yes I do. Atonal music causes a stress response in that the brain needs to work harder to make sense of the music. If you have some studies that show otherwise please post them. Otherwise you are just repeating you opinion about research you dont like

a brain also needs to work harder to understand tolstoy or albert szent-gyorgyi than it does to understand dan brown, but I doubt ray peat or any reputable physiologist would tell people to read the latter instead of the former.

I showed you how the study you posted is not definitive and refers to the existing literature as largely ambiguous, and also implies that the stress response to the atonal music is mediated by unfamiliarity. I really don't know what else I could do.

the idea that exposing yourself to difficult and unfamiliar ideas is bad for you is stupendously stupid, and harmful.

 

[x-ray peat]

in fact, i responded to your point by showing how the study you posted earlier is not definitive and implies that familiarity plays a role in the response to atonal music, even implying it in the title itself.

you are inferring. that is a big difference

 

[x-ray peat]

a brain also needs to work harder to understand tolstoy or albert szent-gyorgyi than it does to understand dan brown, but I doubt ray peat or any reputable physiologist would tell people to read the latter instead of the former.

I showed you how the study you posted is not definitive and refers to the existing literature as largely ambiguous, and also implies that the stress response to the atonal music is mediated by unfamiliarity. I really don't know what else I could do.

the idea that exposing yourself to difficult and unfamiliar ideas is bad for you is stupendously stupid, and harmful.

I think you need to do a bit more research on the motives of these composers as well as the research that supports what I am saying.
Modern music can be seen as part of a campaign of cultural Marxism and its intentions are not as wholesome as that of Tolstoy.

"What radical music perceives is the untransfigured suffering of man... The seismographic registration of traumatic shock becomes, at the same time, the technical structural law of music. It forbids continuity and development. Musical language is polarized according to its extreme; towards gestures of shock resembling bodily convulsions on the one hand, and on the other towards a crystalline standstill of a human being whom anxiety causes to freeze in her tracks... Modern music sees absolute oblivion as its goal. It is the surviving message of despair from the shipwrecked." Theodore Adorno The Philosophy of Modern Music

 

[energyandstruct]

you are inferring. that is a big difference

The title means that they are not attempting to study anything beyond the response of non-expert listeners to atonal music. this means the study is limited to studying essentially the response of people to an unfamiliar musical form.

also I quoted the part of the study where they say the available literature is ambiguous on autonomic responses to various forms of music, and contradicts itself.

Here's a quote from the conclusion:

"One of the limits of the study is the possibility of a culturally mediated difference in the esthetic preference for a tonal or atonal repertoire between the judges (who characterized the pieces as joyful, touching, and agitating) and naïve participants who listened to the selected pieces. Indeed, esthetic interviews were distributed to professional conductors and composers, who might have developed a positive esthetic taste for atonal music as a result of their specific profession. These judges concluded that the tonal and atonal repertoire was equally full of pathos and overall touching. On the other hand, we missed the esthetic evaluation of pieces from university students, who showed a strong difference in their autonomic responses to the tonal and the atonal pieces, possibly reflecting increased alertness and attention levels, a sense of wonder (feeling allured and amazed), psychological tension, and possibly anxiety and fear of the latter. The other possible limit relies in the concurrent visual stimulation. Indeed participants watched a sequence of 300 faces (balanced for affective valence and perceived arousal across auditory blocks) as a secondary task. Therefore they did not specifically pay attention to the auditory stimulation. If, on one hand, one might fear a cross modal interaction between auditory and visual processing (Marin et al., 2012), on the other hand, the inattentive auditory condition makes even more relevant the strong modulation of autonomic responses (fear bradycardia) which was found during listening to atonal music."

 

[energyandstruct]

I think you need to do a bit more research on the motives of these composers as well as the research that supports what I am saying.
Modern music can be seen as part of a campaign of cultural Marxism and its intentions are not as wholesome as that of Tolstoy.

"What radical music perceives is the untransfigured suffering of man... The seismographic registration of traumatic shock becomes, at the same time, the technical structural law of music. It forbids continuity and development. Musical language is polarized according to its extreme; towards gestures of shock resembling bodily convulsions on the one hand, and on the other towards a crystalline standstill of a human being whom anxiety causes to freeze in her tracks... Modern music sees absolute oblivion as its goal. It is the surviving message of despair from the shipwrecked." Theodore Adorno The Philosophy of Modern Music

I don't like or care about adorno, because he disliked jazz, but there are many different motivations in modern music, you can't compare schoenberg (who was probably crypto-marxist and interested in fear and oblivion) to Messiaen, who also wrote chromatic/atonal music but was a Catholic mystic who was interested in emulating nature and wonder and religious experience. These subtle differences are important yet you steamroll over them with the cultural marksism theory.

I would consider myself a marxist in some ways but not really a fan of adorno and the kind of dour, transcendentally miserablist frankfurt school

 

[energyandstruct]

I think you need to do a bit more research on the motives of these composers as well as the research that supports what I am saying.
Modern music can be seen as part of a campaign of cultural Marxism and its intentions are not as wholesome as that of Tolstoy.

"What radical music perceives is the untransfigured suffering of man... The seismographic registration of traumatic shock becomes, at the same time, the technical structural law of music. It forbids continuity and development. Musical language is polarized according to its extreme; towards gestures of shock resembling bodily convulsions on the one hand, and on the other towards a crystalline standstill of a human being whom anxiety causes to freeze in her tracks... Modern music sees absolute oblivion as its goal. It is the surviving message of despair from the shipwrecked." Theodore Adorno The Philosophy of Modern Music

also this quote is kind of badass. adorno sucks sometimes but this is a cool goal for music

 

[energyandstruct]

The title means that they are not attempting to study anything beyond the response of non-expert listeners to atonal music. this means the study is limited to studying essentially the response of people to an unfamiliar musical form.

also I quoted the part of the study where they say the available literature is ambiguous on autonomic responses to various forms of music, and contradicts itself.

Here's a quote from the conclusion:

"One of the limits of the study is the possibility of a culturally mediated difference in the esthetic preference for a tonal or atonal repertoire between the judges (who characterized the pieces as joyful, touching, and agitating) and naïve participants who listened to the selected pieces. Indeed, esthetic interviews were distributed to professional conductors and composers, who might have developed a positive esthetic taste for atonal music as a result of their specific profession. These judges concluded that the tonal and atonal repertoire was equally full of pathos and overall touching. On the other hand, we missed the esthetic evaluation of pieces from university students, who showed a strong difference in their autonomic responses to the tonal and the atonal pieces, possibly reflecting increased alertness and attention levels, a sense of wonder (feeling allured and amazed), psychological tension, and possibly anxiety and fear of the latter. The other possible limit relies in the concurrent visual stimulation. Indeed participants watched a sequence of 300 faces (balanced for affective valence and perceived arousal across auditory blocks) as a secondary task. Therefore they did not specifically pay attention to the auditory stimulation. If, on one hand, one might fear a cross modal interaction between auditory and visual processing (Marin et al., 2012), on the other hand, the inattentive auditory condition makes even more relevant the strong modulation of autonomic responses (fear bradycardia) which was found during listening to atonal music."

the paper you cited directly contradicts your claims, so you turn to some conspiracy theory (cultural marxism) to explain why modern, atonal music is bad. adorno didn't invent the beatles, or led zeppelin, who are not at all atonal, btw

 

[energyandstruct]

p

the paper you cited directly contradicts your claims, so you turn to some conspiracy theory (cultural marxism) to explain why modern, atonal music is bad. adorno didn't invent the beatles, or led zeppelin, who are not at all atonal, btw

pop music is like the opposite of atonal, and if anything is Spectacle/"cultural marxism", it's pop music