Muscle gain log: androsterone + progesterone + pregnenelone + DHEA

[theantagonist]

Hi everyone,


This is a log to see the effects of the different hormones on my body composition.
i'll try and keep it concise, give some background info. if someone would have additional questions, just shoot.

History:

Been hypothyroid for several years. Been taking blood labs for 6-7 years. Naive, as i was, i only focussed on testosterone, which wasn't great 400-600ng/dl.
2-3 months ago found, danny and @haidut their work. Did pulse and temp test, found i was hypo. But have had signs for multiple years that i didn't notice, didn't put 2 and 2 together.
(minimal hair on my arms, sparse eyebrows, very little facial hair growth, memory problems etc)
That's all improving.


The good

I avoided vegetable oils, and lots of PUFA last 6 years. Avoided gluten.
Never did any cardio
Only weight lifting (7 years)


The bad

I avoided sugars, ate too much fat, and intermittent fasting, too little protein.


THE STACK

(daily)

1mg androsterone
24mg progesterone
2mg pregneneolone
5mg DHEA

All products used are idealabs, thanks @haidut (pansterone, cortinon8:1, androsterone)
Thanks @SonOfEurope for guidance on dosing and sharing your knowledge on the topic


Analyzing results:

i want to preface from the start, that it won't be easy to attribute the results. Here's why:


1. i gainded 6 kg while Peating in 3 weeks (while i haven't gained any significant weight in the last 3 years, don't mind, healthier BF% now)
2. i almost completely stopped working out (small upper body work out 1 a week) for 1,5 months. CORONA GYM LOCKDOWNS
3. while not working out, i used 2 mg of pansterone each day
4. Workouts are at home, while before i went to the gym. Less equipment, less weight on the bar. Inferior workouts

These 3 things will make it difficult to know, if any weight gain will be
1. muscle memory
2. effects of anti-cortisol effects/pro anabolic effects of substances

Anyhow, i thought it would be fun and informative to log the changes.


Baseline day -45
Pictures before weight gain, after training pumped Pictures are with good angle for the back, i added 1 straight and bad lighting. what a difference right
65-66kg
BF 9-10% (eyeballed)

 

[theantagonist]

DAY 0

5-6 kg heavier, 1,5 months untrained, pictures taken after upper body workout.
70kg

 

[Bad Linhat]

Interesting experiment !
If you don't mind i ask you something please:

Age
Height
How your diet looks like

 

[theantagonist]

Interesting experiment !
If you don't mind i ask you something please:

Age
Height
How your diet looks like

26 years old
Height 172 cm

Diet now:
Coffee with a lot of sugar, OJ, milk, eggs, liver, heart, kidneys, shrimp, 100%ground beef (no fat)
Well cooked potatoes and corn pasta occasionally
Coconut oil, grass fed butter
Protein shake (collagen protein or casein)
Candy

I do eat other things, but these are the staples of my diet at the moment.
Will be adding oysters soon

 

[Andman]

great shape, will be following with interest! whats your temps/pulse currently?

from personal experience its pretty easy to crash e2 with andro really quickly, esp at lower bf% levels

 

[Bad Linhat]

26 years old
Height 172 cm

Diet now:
Coffee with a lot of sugar, OJ, milk, eggs, liver, heart, kidneys, shrimp, 100%ground beef (no fat)
Well cooked potatoes and corn pasta occasionally
Coconut oil, grass fed butter
Protein shake (collagen protein or casein)
Candy

I do eat other things, but these are the staples of my diet at the moment.
Will be adding oysters soon

Thanks for sharing!

Is low fat your diet ?

How many calories are you eating ?

How many proteins ?

I follow your experiment with great interest too.
I use only 5mg of dhea daily (with great results, but i'm in my fourties and so my anabolic hormones are declining).
In the past i have used 50mg pregnenolone daily but i haven't noticed any improvements in muscles.
Now i'm using rubber bands for my workout (gym are closed also here in Italy) with good results

 

[theantagonist]

great shape, will be following with interest! whats your temps/pulse currently?

from personal experience its pretty easy to crash e2 with andro really quickly, esp at lower bf% levels

Thanks man! Currently on 100mcg T4 and 25 T3.
Will be changing the doses somewhat if my new order arrives.

Currently, not tracking temps frequently. But when i measure around 2 pm and have had thyroid and some progesterone, i'm at 37C°
Pulse is good after taking thyroid 80ish. Upon waking i might get 70
Before taking thyroid, it was 58-62. So happy with the change overall.

 

[theantagonist]

Thanks for sharing!

Is low fat your diet ?

How many calories are you eating ?

How many proteins ?

I used to eat way too much fat, even though it was saturated.
I now try and limit fat consumption. i couldn't tell you in grams. But it's mostly cooking fats and fat from heavy cream to make some sauce. and some milk
I don't think it's more then 15-20%, but could be wrong, not tracking.

Calories, couldn't tell, not keeping track

Protein, i try and get 120 grams, but most of the time it will be around 100grams

I follow your experiment with great interest too.
I use only 5mg of dhea daily (with great results, but i'm in my fourties and so my anabolic hormones are declining).
In the past i have used 50mg pregnenolone daily but i haven't noticed any improvements in muscles.
Now i'm using rubber bands for my workout (gym are closed also here in Italy) with good results

Good to hear! Just 5 mg of dhea, that's interesting, wouldn't think it would have that much effect.
How long did you take the 50mg preg? Did you see any changes in bloodlabs?

 

[theantagonist]

from personal experience its pretty easy to crash e2 with andro really quickly, esp at lower bf% levels

What does that feel like? Just to know what to look out for.
Would that be bad? I've read some studies of haidut, stating estrogen isn't needed for male sexual function.
Knowing that estrogen is a stress hormone, having it tank wouldn't be bad.

I'm getting blood labs next Thursday, so I'll be able to see the effects of 1 week application

 

[Bad Linhat]

Good to hear! Just 5 mg of dhea, that's interesting, wouldn't think it would have that much effect.
How long did you take the 50mg preg? Did you see any changes in bloodlabs?

I start taking pregnenolone first at 25mg a day about 1 year ago: saw very few improvements.
Then (3 o 4 months after) i started dhea 5mg a day, after 2 days my persistent back pain gone away, after 3 weeks muscle gains are visible and also better libido.
After some time started dhea i upped pregnenolone to 50mg a day and now i have quitted pregnenolone from about 2 months: I haven't seen any change.
For me the real game changers was undoubtedly dhea.

I never tried with progesterone or upping dhea (i don't want to risk increasing estrogens)

I never do blood test unfortunately recently

 

[Mauritio]

Why so much Progesterone?

 

[theantagonist]

Why so much Progesterone?

It was formulated on haidut's post Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

Don't feel like daily progesterone of 24mg is that high.

 

[Mauritio]

It was formulated on haidut's post Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

Don't feel like daily progesterone of 24mg is that high.

I think for a male that is pretty high , if you dont take it for a chronic disease. But if you can handle it , go for it .

 

[theantagonist]

I think for a male that is pretty high , if you dont take it for a chronic disease. But if you can handle it , go for it .

Thanks for your input. At the moment i don't feel much from this dose.
Are you stating this because of the possibility of progesterone to become estrogenic?
What symptom would alarm you?

 

[milkboi]

I used to eat way too much fat, even though it was saturated.
I now try and limit fat consumption. i couldn't tell you in grams. But it's mostly cooking fats and fat from heavy cream to make some sauce. and some milk
I don't think it's more then 15-20%, but could be wrong, not tracking.

Calories, couldn't tell, not keeping track

Protein, i try and get 120 grams, but most of the time it will be around 100grams



Good to hear! Just 5 mg of dhea, that's interesting, wouldn't think it would have that much effect.
How long did you take the 50mg preg? Did you see any changes in bloodlabs?

I'd seriously up my protein, as in doubling it to 200 g/d, if your goal is muscle gain. Nice experiment btw, keep it goin

 

[theantagonist]

I'd seriously up my protein, as in doubling it to 200 g/d, if your goal is muscle gain. Nice experiment btw, keep it goin

Thanks, however studies don't support that position.
I've never had trouble building muscle and I've gone lower than the recommendation below. I think 0.82/lb is more than enough. For me that's around 120-130 grams.
Furthermore, adding protein would increase ammonia formation.


Based on the sound research, many review papers have concluded 0.82g/lb is the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). This recommendation often includes a double 95% confidence level, meaning they took the highest mean intake at which benefits were still observed and then added two standard deviations to that level to make absolutely sure all possible benefits from additional protein intake are utilized. As such, this is already overdoing it and consuming 1g/lb ‘to be safe’ doesn’t make any sense. 0.82g/lb is already very safe.


The picture below summarizes the literature. As you can see, 1.8g/kg (0.82g/lb) is the point at which additional protein intake ceases to yield any benefits

The myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal protein intake for bodybuilders

Protein. It's every bodybuilder's favorite macronutrient and for good reason. Protein is extremely essential, super satiating and amazingly anabolic. Protein is awesome… but you're consuming too much of it. Like most myths, the belief that you should take in 1g/lb of body weight has become so...

mennohenselmans.com

 

[Mauritio]

Thanks for your input. At the moment i don't feel much from this dose.
Are you stating this because of the possibility of progesterone to become estrogenic?
What symptom would alarm you?

I wouldnt say estrogenic but anti-androgenic . It can make you a bit puffy and bloated less androgenic but if no problems with libido or looks arise you're good . I would take it orally with a meal as it's a very good endotoxin antagonist.

 

[theantagonist]

I wouldnt say estrogenic but anti-androgenic . It can make you a bit puffy and bloated less androgenic but if no problems with libido or looks arise you're good . I would take it orally with a meal as it's a very good endotoxin antagonist.

I've been applying cortinon through belly button, might rotate with oral administration, sounds like a great added benefit to reduce endotoxins.
I should be able to monitor androgenic status with bloodlabs. Let's see how it unfolds.

 

[Scout88at]

Hi everyone,


This is a log to see the effects of the different hormones on my body composition.
i'll try and keep it concise, give some background info. if someone would have additional questions, just shoot.

History:

Been hypothyroid for several years. Been taking blood labs for 6-7 years. Naive, as i was, i only focussed on testosterone, which wasn't great 400-600ng/dl.
2-3 months ago found, danny and @haidut their work. Did pulse and temp test, found i was hypo. But have had signs for multiple years that i didn't notice, didn't put 2 and 2 together.
(minimal hair on my arms, sparse eyebrows, very little facial hair growth, memory problems etc)
That's all improving.


The good

I avoided vegetable oils, and lots of PUFA last 6 years. Avoided gluten.
Never did any cardio
Only weight lifting (7 years)


The bad

I avoided sugars, ate too much fat, and intermittent fasting, too little protein.


THE STACK

(daily)

1mg androsterone
24mg progesterone
2mg pregneneolone
5mg DHEA

All products used are idealabs, thanks @haidut (pansterone, cortinon8:1, androsterone)
Thanks @SonOfEurope for guidance on dosing and sharing your knowledge on the topic


Analyzing results:

i want to preface from the start, that it won't be easy to attribute the results. Here's why:


1. i gainded 6 kg while Peating in 3 weeks (while i haven't gained any significant weight in the last 3 years, don't mind, healthier BF% now)
2. i almost completely stopped working out (small upper body work out 1 a week) for 1,5 months. CORONA GYM LOCKDOWNS
3. while not working out, i used 2 mg of pansterone each day
4. Workouts are at home, while before i went to the gym. Less equipment, less weight on the bar. Inferior workouts

These 3 things will make it difficult to know, if any weight gain will be
1. muscle memory
2. effects of anti-cortisol effects/pro anabolic effects of substances

Anyhow, i thought it would be fun and informative to log the changes.


Baseline day -45
Pictures before weight gain, after training pumped Pictures are with good angle for the back, i added 1 straight and bad lighting. what a difference right
65-66kg
BF 9-10% (eyeballed)

I’m interested in your experience with this stack. I am in a similar situation: hypothyroid, low T levels in the past and used to underconsume sugars.
I just started (as of 2weeks ago) a similar stack of:
-3mg Androsterone
-6mg Progesterone
-10mg of Pregnenolone
-10mg of DHEA
-3drops of Tyromix split into 1morning/2evening doses

I’m 32years old, 6’1” and 205 and carry a little more body fat that you do. What are your thoughts on my stack? Is there anything you would suggest changing? Since started this I feel an increase in energy and mental acuity but still struggle a little with sleep. Workouts have been going well

 

[theantagonist]

I’m interested in your experience with this stack. I am in a similar situation: hypothyroid, low T levels in the past and used to underconsume sugars.
I just started (as of 2weeks ago) a similar stack of:
-3mg Androsterone
-6mg Progesterone
-10mg of Pregnenolone
-10mg of DHEA
-3drops of Tyromix split into 1morning/2evening doses

I’m 32years old, 6’1” and 205 and carry a little more body fat that you do. What are your thoughts on my stack? Is there anything you would suggest changing? Since started this I feel an increase in energy and mental acuity but still struggle a little with sleep. Workouts have been going well

Just started, so can't say much at this point. I think in a week or 2 i might increase androsterone to 2mg every other day (1-2-1-2) I prefer being cautious with that one.
I'd change dosage based on what/how you're feeling or results of bloodwork. Your experience will be the best arbiter.
I've read some users having adverse effects with pansterone, or prog or andro, dosages lower than me. So it's hard to predict how they'll influence the user.

I would browse the forum for sleep issues and keep experimenting.
Salt, fats, complex carbs at night can be beneficial. taking progesteron at night, Room temp


Keep us updated how it goes, man. Very interested to see how your higher doses of andro and DHEA will be.