Most people in the USA are choosing to get the COVID vaccine?

mayku-T-meelo

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That seems correct. So it does not seem like they changed diagnostic criteria.
Yes, but it isn't worth anything in the sense of diagnosis, anyway you try to frame it. Test can be reactive, but that doesn't mean the person is sick and spreading the disease. And from what I understand the crucial point for the above is that this narrowing still excludes otherwise false positives which started the whole panic. So it's unfair to use a narrow band if the test manufacturers are pre-setting other widely used tests to everything up to 35 or 40 ct, which in organizational structures and media create a sense of emergency. If for sequencing you don't use the samples which would produce a positive result outside of vaccination evaluation, isn't that bending the diagnostic criteria?
 

Hugh Johnson

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Yes, but it isn't worth anything in the sense of diagnosis, anyway you try to frame it. Test can be reactive, but that doesn't mean the person is sick and spreading the disease. And from what I understand the crucial point for the above is that this narrowing still excludes otherwise false positives which started the whole panic. So it's unfair to use a narrow band if the test manufacturers are pre-setting other widely used tests to everything up to 35 or 40 ct, which in organizational structures and media create a sense of emergency. If for sequencing you don't use the samples which would produce a positive result outside of vaccination evaluation, isn't that bending the diagnostic criteria?
Yeah, but the discussion here is whether the vaccinated are considered covid-positive under the same criteria as the unvaxxed. If they use the same criteria, they are playing this straight and there is nothing shady here. It also means that this bit of statistics is at least somewhat meaningful. If they changed the criteria, then they can manufacture vaccine efficacy out thin air.

The CDC guidance was, as far as I can tell, solely for them to get access to viruses that have broken through the vaxx. and it is perfectly reasonable to use low PRC cycle sine false negatives are not a concern, but false positives are a huge concern.
 

mayku-T-meelo

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Yeah, but the discussion here is whether the vaccinated are considered covid-positive under the same criteria as the unvaxxed. If they use the same criteria, they are playing this straight and there is nothing shady here. It also means that this bit of statistics is at least somewhat meaningful. If they changed the criteria, then they can manufacture vaccine efficacy out thin air.

The CDC guidance was, as far as I can tell, solely for them to get access to viruses that have broken through the vaxx. and it is perfectly reasonable to use low PRC cycle sine false negatives are not a concern, but false positives are a huge concern.
Ok, so I suppose they will be using the <= 28 for before and after in the context of vaccine efficacy. What's worrisome is that they still rely on the viral load produced by the PCR as the ultimate demonstration that the vaccines are useful or even necessary. And I think routine tests are still running at higher cycles, so there are still a lot of false positives outside of vaccine testing. So de facto there are a lot of unvaxxed who are testing positive under different criteria than those in the vaccine investigation. Relying on the PCR test was not sensible in the first place, so why would it be taken as an explicit measure of vaccines' usefulness? It's a rhetorical question, I guess the preceding issue is whether you accept the PCR test as a diagnostic tool for covid.
 

mayku-T-meelo

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You have absolutely no evidence of this. Everything you say is speculation.
Well that's my benefit of a doubt based on their instructions.They could also measure just post-vaccination numbers without bothering to measure pre-vaccination load. What they clearly say or that's how I read it (?) is that numbers over 28 shouldn't be considered in case of vaccination breakthrough, yet those same numbers are considered when I go to the laboratory for routine testing, because most of them are preset to 40 ct. Am I missing something?
 

Hugh Johnson

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Well that's my benefit of a doubt based on their instructions.They could also measure just post-vaccination numbers without bothering to measure pre-vaccination load. What they clearly say or that's how I read it (?) is that numbers over 28 shouldn't be considered in case of vaccination breakthrough, yet those same numbers are considered when I go to the laboratory for routine testing, because most of them are preset to 40 ct. Am I missing something?
You are mixing topics. This instruction is for research not for diagnosis or statistics gathering.
 

Austin Resch

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Between CT 38 and CT 28 you have the factor 1,024. So the tests were about thousand times more sensitive before.
Absolutely, this drives the point home more,the fact that the cycles operate on a logarithmic scale. Just like the difference between 1.5pH and 2pH is actually much more than 0.5
 

Austin Resch

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Could you give a source in the CT changes? I am having trouble finding them.
1620068385144.png
this image shows the Ct threshold for the province of Ontario in Canada.

You can also use the command "f" search function in the document I included below to see the reported Ct in the governments publicly accessible guideline they have used since the start of the pandemic (Ct38-40).

You can also search for chemical laboratory vendors that sell RT-PCR test (e.g. Thermo Fisher Scientific), to find that the tests guidelines as per the manufacturer often call for 35-40 Ct.
 

Rick K

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This topic has come up before. See related post.
Indeed it has, Giraffe, however, many folks are newer to this form and may have missed it. I am reposting my screenshot now. It shows ship date of 2017 and the on @Regina posted has 2018 for ship dates; dunno why.
 

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Regina

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Indeed it has, Giraffe, however, many folks are newer to this form and may have missed it. I am reposting my screenshot now. It shows ship date of 2017 and the on @Regina posted has 2018 for ship dates; dunno why.
They can't catch everything. And when this mistake turned up on twitter, they came in and started calling them medical diagnostic tests. No further explanation.

World Bank is the same cabal.
 

mayku-T-meelo

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You are mixing topics. This instruction is for research not for diagnosis or statistics gathering.
Well, at the beginning when people objected to PCR "diagnostic" tests having high treshold values, the defenders said that the tests are reliable and also cross-tested and that we can't lower the values and that they are highly specific and accurate.

So why limit the span of ct values for research purpose? I get that you can get a more exact value of cycles at which there is enough viral load to make it reactive, but why exclude the values which are otherwise included in the diagnosis (which is not even a real diagnosis)? Are those tests not comparable?

And I thought that the so called diagnostic tests and statistics gathering were the main reason for why the vaccines are being implemented under great necessity. So their efficacy wouldn't be assessed and this instruction wouldn't be given out if the numbers on the diagnostic tests wouldn't be high.

Point being, still looks like they are out of context and dishonestly bending the numbers.
 

Giraffe

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I am reposting my screenshot now. It shows ship date of 2017 and the on @Regina posted has 2018 for ship dates; dunno why.
If I changed my username all my posts would appear with my new username (including those from the time before I changed the name).
 

Hugh Johnson

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Well, at the beginning when people objected to PCR "diagnostic" tests having high treshold values, the defenders said that the tests are reliable and also cross-tested and that we can't lower the values and that they are highly specific and accurate.

So why limit the span of ct values for research purpose? I get that you can get a more exact value of cycles at which there is enough viral load to make it reactive, but why exclude the values which are otherwise included in the diagnosis (which is not even a real diagnosis)? Are those tests not comparable?

And I thought that the so called diagnostic tests and statistics gathering were the main reason for why the vaccines are being implemented under great necessity. So their efficacy wouldn't be assessed and this instruction wouldn't be given out if the numbers on the diagnostic tests wouldn't be high.

Point being, still looks like they are out of context and dishonestly bending the numbers.
It doesn't look like that at all. Samples for research have different standards than samples for diagnosis.
 

Hugh Johnson

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View attachment 23228
this image shows the Ct threshold for the province of Ontario in Canada.

You can also use the command "f" search function in the document I included below to see the reported Ct in the governments publicly accessible guideline they have used since the start of the pandemic (Ct38-40).

You can also search for chemical laboratory vendors that sell RT-PCR test (e.g. Thermo Fisher Scientific), to find that the tests guidelines as per the manufacturer often call for 35-40 Ct.
So no changes made?
 

Austin Resch

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So no changes made?
I haven't come across any info that explicitly outlines a change in the Ct guidelines for Ontario, Canada. You are correct.
This is very concerning given the significant correlation between increased mass vaccination and significantly increased cases (even more so than they are already artificially inflated) especially given the time period and fact that coronaviruses do not peak in the spring/summer, the peak period would be between Jan-March according to: Seasonality of coronaviruses and other respiratory viruses in Canada: Implications for COVID-19, CCDR 47(3) - Canada.ca

1620138601184.png

The fact that. as you mentioned, no changes have been made to either diagnostic testing method or lockdown/masking/distancing (still as strict as they have been all year), suggests that another variable would have to be responsible, at least to some extent, to the significant increase in cases. The only new large scale pandemic management strategy that has changed is mass roll out of the experimental gene therapy. This would seem incredibly plausible given the studies for it showing that at best they offer only a 0.7-1.1% risk reduction (while having no data on medium-long term effects), which is likely much less in older individuals and those with multiple comorbidities.
 
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Austin Resch

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It would seem plausible that a change from Ct40 to Ct38 would produce measurable changes in positive cases when the test is performed by the millions. Based on the government of Canada, Canada has performed over 1.2 million tests (source below), which costing around $50-$100 per test (not including the additional costs/time for lab technicians to perform the analysis, for those who are forced to stay in hotels multiple nights awaiting results, etc.) add up to a significant sum of money which could have been instead allocated to support the health/immunity of susceptible individuals by leveraging something like the Zelenko protocol (Dr. Zelenko is being nominated for Nobel Peace Prize for his success with treating covid) which is evidence based, low/no risk, inexpensive, and can be undertaken without the need for a PCR covid test since it will actually improve individuals immune system to the point where its effects will likely offer protection from all other common seasonal infectious diseases, which historically take the same number of lives as covid (only the mainstream news does not hyper-fiate on it).

 
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Hugh Johnson

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The difference between research standards and diagnostics, that I've quoted you saying, I thought it's obvious what I was asking about?
Diagnostic criteria must allow for some false positives, research material should be selected with no false positives if possible. So a test with 95% false negative rate is worthless for diagnosis, but can be good to select samples with if that is required to remove false positives.
 
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