Most Cancer Mutations Are Due To Random DNA Copying 'mistakes'

Dante

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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170323141403.htm
Saw this a few days ago, i am just the messenger here :tearsofjoy:, want to know what the people here think about it.
Some random points -
-- "Johns Hopkins Kimmel Cancer Center scientists report data from a new study providing evidence that random, unpredictable DNA copying "mistakes" account for nearly two-thirds of the mutations that cause cancer. Their research is grounded on a novel mathematical model based on DNA sequencing and epidemiologic data from around the world"

-- "it is not as well-known that each time a normal cell divides and copies its DNA to produce two new cells, it makes multiple mistakes," says Cristian Tomasetti, Ph.D., assistant professor of biostatistics at the Johns Hopkins Kimmel Cancer Center and the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. "These copying mistakes are a potent source of cancer mutations that historically have been scientifically undervalued, and this new work provides the first estimate of the fraction of mutations caused by these mistakes."

-- "the scientists took a close look at the mutations that drive abnormal cell growth among 32 cancer types (Supplemental Materials, Table S6). They developed a new mathematical model using DNA sequencing data from The Cancer Genome Atlas and epidemiologic data from the Cancer Research UK database."

--"Looking across all 32 cancer types studied, the researchers estimate that 66 percent of cancer mutations result from copying errors, 29 percent can be attributed to lifestyle or environmental factors, and the remaining 5 percent are inherited"

--"Vogelstein says that people with cancer who have avoided known risk factors should be comforted by their findings. "It's not your fault," says Vogelstein. "Nothing you did or didn't do was responsible for your illness.""

Thoughts ?
 

Prosper

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I thought all cancers are due to random mutations getting out of hand? As far as I know, DNA copying mistakes happen all the time and you can only support your body's ability to render these mistakes harmless before they spread by maintaining healthy diet & lifestyle. Or do certain factors increase the rate these mistakes occur?

What am I missing here?
 

haidut

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The study is bunk. Here are two things to consider. A recent study which even made the front page on CNN found dramatically increased rates of colon cancer in people in their 20s. Colon cancer is one of the cancers considered definitely an "old person" cancer and this is why screenings do not start until the person hits 50. As the study itself says, neither genetics nor obesity can explain this increase.
Breaking News: Colorectal Cancer Rates In Young People Have Doubled

Second, the idea of a genetic mutation causing cancer is the central dogma of modern medicine. Peat has been saying it ain't true for decades but only recently a study came out and said exactly that - the mutations are a result of the metabolic dysfunction in a cancer cell, not a cause of the cancer. So, this metabolic dysfunction (aka Warburg effect) is the actual cause, not some stupid mutation or evil gene that nobody has managed to pinpoint over the last 80 years. And believe me, they searched hard and spent a lot of taxpayers' money while at it.
The Warburg Effect drives oncogenesis: researchers at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab and in Japan show cancer really does have a sweet tooth • r/science
 
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Tenacity

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That people consider mutations to happen randomly always gets me. Is there anything in the physical world that is truly 'random', i.e. without cause? It's a central principle of neo-Darwinism but it defies everything that seems to be true about the world.
 
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Realize that a cancer cell dies or even suicides in a healthy tissue. Also realize that the health of a tissue is hardly predetermined. Now put 2 and 2 together. What's the point of all this. Even if we magically imagine some kind of horrible disease that makes your "safety systems" be overwhelmed even by this alleged low amount of alleged "random" mistakes, then these people would have long ago disappeared from the gene pool, both by death and by combination of already tiny probabilities. And this is all accepting the mainstream axioms, which already make no sense to begin with.
 

tankasnowgod

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--"Vogelstein says that people with cancer who have avoided known risk factors should be comforted by their findings. "It's not your fault," says Vogelstein. "Nothing you did or didn't do was responsible for your illness.""

Sorry, Vogelstein, but that is BS. They could have monitored their iron levels. Donated blood. Optimized thyroid function and/or taken thyroid supplements. Improved antioxidant status. Optimized the fat soluble vitamins. Minimized PUFA intake, or taken extra vitamin E. Supplemented Niacinamide, Biotin, and other things.

I wouldn't doubt that people aren't aware of these things (especially since there seems to be so much ignorance from "medical experts"), but that doesn't mean that things you did or didn't do unknowingly didn't contribute to the disease.
 

Mountain

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That people consider mutations to happen randomly always gets me. Is there anything in the physical world that is truly 'random', i.e. without cause? It's a central principle of neo-Darwinism but it defies everything that seems to be true about the world.

Not to mention that the proteins doing the nucleic acid replication have copy-proofing abilities. So I'm pretty sure that the mistake frequency is very low, I think on the order of once every 10^10 bases. It also seems completely unreasonable that such a rare event would cause someone to die so quickly, as though a handful of rogue cells are gonna trump the entire organism -- just doesn't make sense.
 

Tarmander

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Sorry, Vogelstein, but that is BS. They could have monitored their iron levels. Donated blood. Optimized thyroid function and/or taken thyroid supplements. Improved antioxidant status. Optimized the fat soluble vitamins. Minimized PUFA intake, or taken extra vitamin E. Supplemented Niacinamide, Biotin, and other things.

I wouldn't doubt that people aren't aware of these things (especially since there seems to be so much ignorance from "medical experts"), but that doesn't mean that things you did or didn't do unknowingly didn't contribute to the disease.

Ahh the soft evil of no responsibility. You don't need to worry, you did nothing wrong, life just choose your poor outcome. How oddly comforting as I hurtle into the Abyss.
 

haidut

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a handful of rogue cells are gonna trump the entire organism -- just doesn't make sense

They would, if you weaken the person with chemotherapy and radiation. Cancer is simply an attempt at repair that does not get turned off since the environment in some organ/tissue is so bad the organism thinks it needs to keep repairing. Any attempt to kill these dividing cells is an incredibly strong signal to the organism that not only are thing not improving but more "repair" needs to be done. So, the cells keep dividing and conquering until there is nothing left but a de-differentiated primitive life form that existed on this planet 3 billion years ago. So, a person with cancer reverts back to the bacterial stage of evolution.
The goal should be to show the repair process that no more repair needs to be done. So far, the things that have been shown to act as such a strong signal include steroids like T3, progesterone, testosterone, DHT (maybe), and blockers of the serotonin "receptor" 5-HT2B. Overwhelming the repair process with oxygen and reactive oxygen species (ROS) can also stop the excessive cell division, so naturally tissue oxygenation agents like CO2, methylene blue, and quinones like emodin and vitamin K often works quite well.
In general, anything that restores electron flow tends to correct any existing pathology. Any diseases has at its base an interruption somewhere of the electron flow from food to oxygen.
 

Drareg

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Sorry, Vogelstein, but that is BS. They could have monitored their iron levels. Donated blood. Optimized thyroid function and/or taken thyroid supplements. Improved antioxidant status. Optimized the fat soluble vitamins. Minimized PUFA intake, or taken extra vitamin E. Supplemented Niacinamide, Biotin, and other things.

I wouldn't doubt that people aren't aware of these things (especially since there seems to be so much ignorance from "medical experts"), but that doesn't mean that things you did or didn't do unknowingly didn't contribute to the disease.

+10000

Mr Volgelstein is part of the media brigade who celebrate brave patients who die of cancer,this is the "cancer culture" ,be brave accept your death,they put kids on TV who are dying of cancer to make other people at home more grateful for their lives and to entertain them. Make a wish foundation etc ,keep in mind the executives take a salary in all charity's.
Learned helplessness in broader culture is why people go along with the "cancer culture" rather than question the doctors.
We even have "carer stores"popping up in western cultures who sell all your needs for chronic disease from wheel chairs to adult diapers, it's one big money making machine.

Full comprehensive work up on thyroid? nah we don't do that,just take your death and be a cancer hero,here's a hat and a badge sponsored by a pharma company or bank.
At least we have all this behaviour very well documentated for future generations to look back and see how warped it all is.
 

haidut

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+10000

Mr Volgelstein is part of the media brigade who celebrate brave patients who die of cancer,this is the "cancer culture" ,be brave accept your death,they put kids on TV who are dying of cancer to make other people at home more grateful for their lives and to entertain them. Make a wish foundation etc ,keep in mind the executives take a salary in all charity's.
Learned helplessness in broader culture is why people go along with the "cancer culture" rather than question the doctors.
We even have "carer stores"popping up in western cultures who sell all your needs for chronic disease from wheel chairs to adult diapers, it's one big money making machine.

Full comprehensive work up on thyroid? nah we don't do that,just take your death and be a cancer hero,here's a hat and a badge sponsored by a pharma company or bank.
At least we have all this behaviour very well documentated for future generations to look back and see how warped it all is.

If this continues, there may be no future generations to look back at all this sharade. If the death rate from chronic disease is accelerating then a critical point will be reached and then society/civilization or even the world as we know it will collapse.
 

Regina

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They would, if you weaken the person with chemotherapy and radiation. Cancer is simply an attempt at repair that does not get turned off since the environment in some organ/tissue is so bad the organism thinks it needs to keep repairing. Any attempt to kill these dividing cells is an incredibly strong signal to the organism that not only are thing not improving but more "repair" needs to be done. So, the cells keep dividing and conquering until there is nothing left but a de-differentiated primitive life form that existed on this planet 3 billion years ago. So, a person with cancer reverts back to the bacterial stage of evolution.
The goal should be to show the repair process that no more repair needs to be done. So far, the things that have been shown to act as such a strong signal include steroids like T3, progesterone, testosterone, DHT (maybe), and blockers of the serotonin "receptor" 5-HT2B. Overwhelming the repair process with oxygen and reactive oxygen species (ROS) can also stop the excessive cell division, so naturally tissue oxygenation agents like CO2, methylene blue, and quinones like emodin and vitamin K often works quite well.
In general, anything that restores electron flow tends to correct any existing pathology. Any diseases has at its base an interruption somewhere of the electron flow from food to oxygen.
:thumbsup::thumbsup: Two thumbs for haidut and Drareg.
Now I see better why I feel sickened by the cancer hero campaign. I get flashes of Jim Jones saying how brave everyone is to drink the juice and lay down.
 

Drareg

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If this continues, there may be no future generations to look back at all this sharade. If the death rate from chronic disease is accelerating then a critical point will be reached and then society/civilization or even the world as we know it will collapse.

Lol,they are so delusional at the top from their own meds you never know.

Declining population is always put down to economic reasons,people can't afford kids,imo the stress of the people's socio economic status prevents conception for years so less kids born possibly.
"Increased longevity" ,the establishment will cling to this as proof of medicines methods,doesn't matter if it's the stress free living that does it,they can still manipulate it as proof.
This longevity will decrease imo,unmet expectations are causing huge stress to people,expectations are similar all over the world from global instant connectivity.
 

haidut

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Lol,they are so delusional at the top from their own meds you never know.

Declining population is always put down to economic reasons,people can't afford kids,imo the stress of the people's socio economic status prevents conception for years so less kids born possibly.
"Increased longevity" ,the establishment will cling to this as proof of medicines methods,doesn't matter if it's the stress free living that does it,they can still manipulate it as proof.
This longevity will decrease imo,unmet expectations are causing huge stress to people,expectations are similar all over the world from global instant connectivity.

I guess the 30% lower T levels in males today compared with 30 years ago (on average) or the 60% borderline infertility in modern males compared with the same population again 30 years ago is all due to economic reasons :): But the very fact that this crap flies and is accepted as truth by most people speaks badly about the general state of mental health today. Not that we needed such peripheral signs to gauge mental health - when every 3rd person is on some kind of psychotropic drug it is not a sign of "living the good life".
 

Tarmander

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Lol,they are so delusional at the top from their own meds you never know.

Declining population is always put down to economic reasons,people can't afford kids,imo the stress of the people's socio economic status prevents conception for years so less kids born possibly.
"Increased longevity" ,the establishment will cling to this as proof of medicines methods,doesn't matter if it's the stress free living that does it,they can still manipulate it as proof.
This longevity will decrease imo,unmet expectations are causing huge stress to people,expectations are similar all over the world from global instant connectivity.

At some point it will become abundantly clear that longevity is declining. I think it was only a few year ago when they were printing magazine covers saying that the babies of today would live to 120 on average. I wish I had saved that cover to be honest. There will be a tipping point, maybe it has already happen, but it'll be like a shock to the general population that people aren't just sick...they are SICK. As in, you cannot rely on having an employee for anything more then 5 years, or a spouse without a chronic disease. It sucks how long it takes sometimes to enter the mass Psyche.
 

Prosper

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Not that we needed such peripheral signs to gauge mental health - when every 3rd person is on some kind of psychotropic drug it is not a sign of "living the good life".
Every single one of the friends I grew up with suffers from their own share of anxiety and/or depression and over half of them are on meds. It's really grim and sickening to think about how far away we've drifted from the environment we evolved to live in and how few people even realize this. Not talking about just nutrition, but all the basic non-essential human needs, like a sense of belonging and working towards the greater good and grander purpose are hardly being fulfilled in our individualistic societies. The things that threaten us have changed from immediate concrete threats to these abstract, invisible and everlooming threats like recessions, unemployment and international geopolitics.

Hard to maintain any kind of optimism for the future.
 

Drareg

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At some point it will become abundantly clear that longevity is declining. I think it was only a few year ago when they were printing magazine covers saying that the babies of today would live to 120 on average. I wish I had saved that cover to be honest. There will be a tipping point, maybe it has already happen, but it'll be like a shock to the general population that people aren't just sick...they are SICK. As in, you cannot rely on having an employee for anything more then 5 years, or a spouse without a chronic disease. It sucks how long it takes sometimes to enter the mass Psyche.

It seems the zeitgeist is changing toward medical issues,the economic issues are 10 year side show and still ongoing.
People see complaints of ill health all round them,the media outlets may stop reporting celebrity deaths for fear of alarming pop culture ,they will probably start claiming celebrities dies of natural causes at 55 frompartying to hard,not because of the good doctors meds.
 

Lilac

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I think the rash of celebrity deaths in 2016 may well have been a reflection of the general population and not an aberration. In my own life, two years ago, I had a cousin, 61, who died suddenly of a mysterious flu-like illness. I've heard of relatives of friends who dropped dead in their 50s recently--massive, sudden heart attacks. I have wanted to ask the board if they feel they are seeing more deaths among the 50s and 60s age groups in their own circles.
 

Base Ball

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:thumbsup::thumbsup: Two thumbs for haidut and Drareg.
Now I see better why I feel sickened by the cancer hero campaign. I get flashes of Jim Jones saying how brave everyone is to drink the juice and lay down.

It hit me how bad this is when I was actually in an infusion room and they start handing out buttons to wear. I said no thanks. And the pink ribbons, don't even get me started on those.............
 

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