More On Serotonin Depletion

haidut

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Hi all,

I've been researching the topic of serotonin depletion since it seems to be tied to so many beneficial health effects. There is a thread on this forum discussing Fenclonine (p-chloro-phenylalanine) used to deplete serotonin in animals and humans, thus resulting in tremendous increases in libido. For those that can get their hands on Fenclonine, the dosage used in humans is 1,500g-4,000g daily in divided doses.
Other methods of depleting serotonin include using BCAA and tyrosine as I mentioned in one of my other posts. However, it turns out there are additional substances/methods for depleting serotonin and I will list these below.

1. DL-6-fluorotryptophan
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6794085

2. P-ethynylphenylalanine (this one works just like Fenclonine but much more potent and in much lower dosages)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10800950
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11958527

3. Iron depletion
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10215890

If someone can get their hands on the chemicals listed above it would be nice to hear some testimonials. But, I think the most interesting find is #3, which suggests that you can deplete serotonin simply by depleting iron since this will prevent activation of tryptophan hydroxylase. I wonder if THAT is the major reason why Ray Peat is not a fan of iron, or is it just another case of confirming the correctness of his ideas through an unexpected pathways (i.e. in this case the corollary would be that high iron is bad b/c it will increase serotonin).
Chronic intake of aspirin (i.e. more than one 325mg tablet per day) is associated with 25%+ reduction in serum ferritin. For those that want even more drastic reduction in iron, here is a drug that is used to lower serum ferritin up to 92%:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferoxamine

Thoughts?
 
J

j.

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Peat I think wants low iron, I wonder why he doesn't advise something that depletes iron, is he worried about safety?
 

haidut

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Well, since aspirin lowers iron and it is in his list of supplements that do so many other good things he probably did not see a reason to recommend something stronger like Deferoxamine.
 

jyb

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j. said:
Peat I think wants low iron, I wonder why he doesn't advise something that depletes iron, is he worried about safety?

Blood donation is mentioned.
 

haidut

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haidut said:
Hi all,

I've been researching the topic of serotonin depletion since it seems to be tied to so many beneficial health effects. There is a thread on this forum discussing Fenclonine (p-chloro-phenylalanine) used to deplete serotonin in animals and humans, thus resulting in tremendous increases in libido. For those that can get their hands on Fenclonine, the dosage used in humans is 1,500g-4,000g daily in divided doses.
Other methods of depleting serotonin include using BCAA and tyrosine as I mentioned in one of my other posts. However, it turns out there are additional substances/methods for depleting serotonin and I will list these below.

1. DL-6-fluorotryptophan
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6794085

2. P-ethynylphenylalanine (this one works just like Fenclonine but much more potent and in much lower dosages)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10800950
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11958527

3. Iron depletion
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10215890

If someone can get their hands on the chemicals listed above it would be nice to hear some testimonials. But, I think the most interesting find is #3, which suggests that you can deplete serotonin simply by depleting iron since this will prevent activation of tryptophan hydroxylase. I wonder if THAT is the major reason why Ray Peat is not a fan of iron, or is it just another case of confirming the correctness of his ideas through an unexpected pathways (i.e. in this case the corollary would be that high iron is bad b/c it will increase serotonin).
Chronic intake of aspirin (i.e. more than one 325mg tablet per day) is associated with 25%+ reduction in serum ferritin. For those that want even more drastic reduction in iron, here is a drug that is used to lower serum ferritin up to 92%:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferoxamine

Thoughts?


Sorry, I had a typo in my original post. The human dosage I saw in studies on Fenclonine was in the range 1,500mg-4,000mg in divided doses.
 

Yves

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For what it's worth, my ferritn was 17(range 30-400) and dipped as low as 12 over the course of 1 year. In between those two readings I had high serotonin 120 (11-200) which was higher than a year prior. So it does not seem like iron depletion was effective for me. I always noticed that EDTA and IP-6 supplements produced positive results that would be consistent with lowered serotonin, however my overriding assumption was primarily that the chelators have antibacterial effects by reducing iron available to gut bacteria, and by destabilizing gut biofilms.

Aspirin directly lowers serotonin, or serotonin release, if I recall correctly.
 

aguilaroja

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Yves said:
For what it's worth, my ferritn was 17(range 30-400) and dipped as low as 12 over the course of 1 year. In between those two readings I had high serotonin 120 (11-200) which was higher than a year prior. So it does not seem like iron depletion was effective for me.

My view is to be clear between avoiding iron excess rather than intentionally depleting iron. As is mentioned, it is quite possible for iron deficiency and low iron stores to coincide with high serotonin.

By comparison, the case of reducing estrogen excess is different. If estrogen is reduced by supporting metabolism, its building blocks are available through biochemical pathways if occasional estrogen stimulation is needed .

When iron stores are gone, they need repletion. As Dr. Peat has mentioned, low thyroid function is too often overlooked and iron supplementing is over-utilized for anemia treatment. But extreme low iron states do occur, in blood loss, disease and starvation, and are dangerous.

Again, I study Dr. Peat's work and do not speak for him. My view, independently arrived at:

Iron "rusts"-it is a pro-oxidant. It is in some respects also a heavy metal:

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/iron-dangers.shtml

Human metabolism retains iron very well. Some biologists believe this is because human co-evolved with parasites that leeched (pun intended) some of the iron. Whatever the flaws in modern food processing, it probably reduced the general parasite intake.

Since humans retain iron well, the easy ways to reduce iron load are either to reduce intake, or through bleeding (including blood donation and menses). Reducing intake refers to lowering the quantity of iron rich foods, including muscle meat. In practical terms, it seems optimal to keep iron stores, as indicated by serum ferritin guidelines, in the lower range of normal.

I would suggest EXTREME caution in efforts to deplete iron below that range. Alternates ways of reducing serotonin burdens have been discussed by Haidut and others.
 

jyb

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aguilaroja said:
Since humans retain iron well, the easy ways to reduce iron load are either to reduce intake, or through bleeding (including blood donation and menses). Reducing intake refers to lowering the quantity of iron rich foods, including muscle meat. In practical terms, it seems optimal to keep iron stores, as indicated by serum ferritin guidelines, in the lower range of normal.

I would suggest EXTREME caution in efforts to deplete iron below that range. Alternates ways of reducing serotonin burdens have been discussed by Haidut and others.

What would you say about the iron test given at donation centres? It's a classic where they test whether a drop of blood floats or sinks in a copper solution. If it sinks, they conclude that it is dense enough and donation is allowed. It is rare to fail the test, they told me only some women would fail it. I wonder if its a good safeguard, ie if I had low iron it would show, but before it gets too low.
 

aguilaroja

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jyb said:
What would you say about the iron test given at donation centres? It's a classic where they test whether a drop of blood floats or sinks in a copper solution. If it sinks, they conclude that it is dense enough and donation is allowed. It is rare to fail the test, they told me only some women would fail it. I wonder if its a good safeguard, ie if I had low iron it would show, but before it gets too low.

The basic answer is yes, the test will screen for a basic low anemia. The float/sink test has mainly been replaced by an electronic meter to test a drop of blood. It tests the serum Hemoglobin.

When Hemoglobin is low, it indicates anemia, but not necessarily from low iron. It would be an accessible warning sign, not specific for low iron. If a person was deliberately limiting iron, that would be a first thought.

The Hemoglobin blood level does not fully reflect the body iron storage, but when it is low, further blood iron studies would be done. And other possible causes of anemia could be investigated.
 

Luann

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Chronic intake of aspirin (i.e. more than one 325mg tablet per day) is associated with 25%+ reduction in serum ferritin. For those that want even more drastic reduction in iron, here is a drug that is used to lower serum ferritin up to 92%:
Deferoxamine - Wikipedia

Cool Haidut. I'd heard of deferoxamine before but I'm sure it's not OTC. I did find this bone regrowth study about it!
 

haidut

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Cool Haidut. I'd heard of deferoxamine before but I'm sure it's not OTC. I did find this bone regrowth study about it!

Interesting! Given the role of serotonin in bone catabolism, the anabolic effects of this iron chelator suggest that it may block serotonin as well.
 

Hugh Johnson

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For what it's worth, my ferritn was 17(range 30-400) and dipped as low as 12 over the course of 1 year. In between those two readings I had high serotonin 120 (11-200) which was higher than a year prior. So it does not seem like iron depletion was effective for me. I always noticed that EDTA and IP-6 supplements produced positive results that would be consistent with lowered serotonin, however my overriding assumption was primarily that the chelators have antibacterial effects by reducing iron available to gut bacteria, and by destabilizing gut biofilms.

Aspirin directly lowers serotonin, or serotonin release, if I recall correctly.
The study was about the intracellular activity of tryptophan hydroxylase. Blood levels of iron are not quite the same as intracellular levels. Vitamin A might be worth a shot as it releases iron from stores.

Also Vit A would a good thing to take before a blood donation.
 

Jake sullivan

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@haidut I thought this post was definetly interesting in regards to iron and the promotion of serotonin, i was curious to know if you were aware or not if heavy metals have the same effect as iron or similar in activating serotonin through the tryptophan pathway,

We know iron feeds pathogenic bacteria and greatly amplifies the effects of endotoxin so in terms of your method of using iron depletion to reduce serotonin, do you think it might be a good idea to look into heavy metal depletion as well, all though iron differes from heavy metals in its own way, im assumimg the mechanisms or damage and negative effects must be quite similar on serotonin and estrogen among other things?
 

haidut

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@haidut I thought this post was definetly interesting in regards to iron and the promotion of serotonin, i was curious to know if you were aware or not if heavy metals have the same effect as iron or similar in activating serotonin through the tryptophan pathway,

We know iron feeds pathogenic bacteria and greatly amplifies the effects of endotoxin so in terms of your method of using iron depletion to reduce serotonin, do you think it might be a good idea to look into heavy metal depletion as well, all though iron differes from heavy metals in its own way, im assumimg the mechanisms or damage and negative effects must be quite similar on serotonin and estrogen among other things?

I don't know if they all mimic iron but many of them mimic estrogen, especially cadmium, nickel, tin, and even boron.
 
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