More fiber and bigger poop decreases estrogen

[Westside PUFAs]

In the context of Peat's carrots/bamboo shoots decreasing estrogen:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7144835

"We studied 10 vegetarian and 10 nonvegetarian premenopausal women on four occasions approximately four months apart. During each study period, the participants kept three-day dietary records, and estrogens were measured in plasma, urinary, and fecal samples. Vegetarians consumed less total fat than omnivores did (30 per cent of total calories, as compared with 40 per cent) and more dietary fiber (28 g per day, as compared with 12 g). There was a positive correlation between fecal weight and fecal excretion of estrogens in both groups (P less than 0.001), with vegetarians having higher fecal weight and increased fecal excretion of estrogens. Urinary excretion of estriol was lower in vegetarians (P less than 0.05), and their plasma levels of estrone and estradiol were negatively correlated with fecal excretion of estrogen (P = 0.005). Among the vegetarians the beta-glucuronidase activity of fecal bacteria was significantly reduced (P = 0.05). We conclude that vegetarian women have an increased fecal output, which leads to increased fecal excretion of estrogen and a decreased plasma concentration of estrogen."

 

[jyb]

Interesting. But actually, I think it raises more questions than it answers. Because a typical vegetarian diet should increase oestrogen in theory. Indeed, vegetarian will eat more green or soy stuff, fermentable fibre and grains (for plant protein) and pufa (although its not clear if more pufa than a modern fat diet): all should increase oestrogen like crazy. Green stuff like green tea turns out to be for me one of the most potent estrogenic like foods ever. I don't think I need to convince anyone soy is estrogenic, there are studies that show how potent the stuff is even in minute quantities. I think the odds are low that these vegetarians are doing a diet based on raw grated salad to lower their oestrogen (and I'm ready to believe it does lower it, I find raw carrot very useful), in fact if they're eating any carrot its probably cooked, so the fibre is degraded and the only thing its doing is delivering a massive load of beta-carotene. Vegetarian diet also means things like beans for protein, some of the absolute worst foods for bacteria fermentation and oestrogen. Even just potato, which seems to me relatively safe, makes Ray really scared about oestrogen and fermentation in some of the podcasts.

 

[jb116]

It would really be more comprehensive if they had posted what the diets were exactly. This really does raise questions and is to some degree pretty confusing. If they hadn't mentioned plasma levels were reduced as well I would've simply said "ok, that confirms thoughts about fiber overall and how it could help excrete estrogen but we don't know what's happening internally." That would've been less unsettling lol

 

[Westside PUFAs]

We have to be subscribed to the NEJM to see what they ate in the study. Peat says well cooked leafy greens are fine and never mentioned that they have to be consumed with fat like he says for starch. He's also said that sugars that are not quickly digested can be just as responsible for fermentation, aka fruit fiber. Peat has said that ideally he would get half his calories from whole fruits, not juice, if he had access to them, so in that context getting half of your calories from whole fibrous fruits raises similar concerns with fermentation if thyroid is low (not a problem if you're taking thyroid), but it also may benefit estrogen excretion as shown here.

post 102098 Vegetarian diet also means things like beans for protein, some of the absolute worst foods for bacteria fermentation and oestrogen.

Source for this? I ask because I'm looking for objectivity and that just seems like something people say over and over again but I've never seen a source. Note for new lurkers, Peat thinks beans are best avoided but I'm asking jyb for a source for my own research.

post 102098 Even just potato, which seems to me relatively safe, makes Ray really scared about oestrogen and fermentation in some of the podcasts.

Do you know which podcasts they are?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It would really be more comprehensive if they had posted what the diets were exactly. This really does raise questions and is to some degree pretty confusing. If they hadn't mentioned plasma levels were reduced as well I would've simply said "ok, that confirms thoughts about fiber overall and how it could help excrete estrogen but we don't know what's happening internally." That would've been less unsettling lol

jb4566 from peatarian, is that you?

 

[jb116]

post 102103

It would really be more comprehensive if they had posted what the diets were exactly. This really does raise questions and is to some degree pretty confusing. If they hadn't mentioned plasma levels were reduced as well I would've simply said "ok, that confirms thoughts about fiber overall and how it could help excrete estrogen but we don't know what's happening internally." That would've been less unsettling lol

jb4566 from peatarian, is that you?

Nope, that's not me

 

[Joocy_J]

It would really be more comprehensive if they had posted what the diets were exactly. This really does raise questions and is to some degree pretty confusing. If they hadn't mentioned plasma levels were reduced as well I would've simply said "ok, that confirms thoughts about fiber overall and how it could help excrete estrogen but we don't know what's happening internally." That would've been less unsettling lol

jb4566 from peatarian, is that you?

No, I am jb4566 from peatarian. How have things been going for you?

 

[jyb]

post 102098 Even just potato, which seems to me relatively safe, makes Ray really scared about oestrogen and fermentation in some of the podcasts.

Do you know which podcasts they are?

Can't be more specific than it's a podcast posted on this forum. He was taking an anti-starch stance and argued for an estrogen connection. If I'm correct in that podcast the oestrogen issue wasn't due to fermentation - it was due to the particle persobtion leading to inflammation issue. The interviewer then asked him what happens to particles when they get absorbed and stuck in tissues. He often talks about persobtion specifically as his reason for having stopped eating any starch, though.

There's no way to know what the study participants used in the diet. I say there's probably beans, soy or nuts, or at least more likely than in non-veg diets, because those seem to me like typical vegetarian diet foods and also recommended source of plants proteins in standard dietary advice. Otherwise there wouldn't be much protein in vegetarian diets, unless you include dairy.

 

[Milky]

post 102093 There was a positive correlation between fecal weight and fecal excretion of estrogens in both groups (P less than 0.001), with vegetarians having higher fecal weight and increased fecal excretion of estrogens. Urinary excretion of estriol was lower in vegetarians

What I take away from this part is that the body attempts to get rid of estrogen however it can, and perhaps the urinary excretion was higher in non-vegetarians because there wasn't as much fecal excretion of estrogen happening as there was in their vegetarian cohorts.

 

[tara]

I agree that it would be interesting to know what the participants actually ate.
I was vegetarian for a few year a long time ago, and have spent time and meals with many vegetarians. Diets vary a lot. If they say vegetarian, and not vegan, I would guess that means lacto-ovo vegetarian, but that could be wrong. In which case they may or may not be eating many legumes.
Raw grated carrot as well as other raw salad food was common food amongst the vegetarians I know. Raw grated carrot, beetroot, apple was popular. Some ate lots of milk, cheese, eggs, some didn't. Some ate lots of soy products - eg tofu, tempeh, soy 'milk' - some just a bit of soy sauce or miso now and then. Some ate lots of wheat, some avoided it in favour of other grains.

 

[paymanz]

nice , but what about other steroid hormones? can fiber make them leave body too? raw carrots bind to bile so probably some taurin/glycin get lost too.and bile itself has important health functions.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

nice , but what about other steroid hormones? can fiber make them leave body too? raw carrots bind to bile so probably some taurin/glycin get lost too.and bile itself has important health functions.

Great question.

 

[PeatThemAll]

Nevermind the vegan spin. One of the rare videos that mentions *how* and why fiber works.

[bbvideo=560,315]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DHV2X3lnfts[/bbvideo]