More Dietary Salt Increases Urea Synthesis And Energy Requirements

beachbum

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This is what I found in my files:
Please excuse my not understanding this but are the studies saying salt isnt good or too much too little isn't good. Can you explain this in layman terms. also what is urea. Thank you.
 

Giraffe

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Please excuse my not understanding this but are the studies saying salt isnt good or too much too little isn't good.
I posted that quote in reply to the note that the email-wiki was not available at that time. I have not really read the studies.

Only screened the first one: It says that aldosterone and insulin went down with higher salt intakes. Norepinephrine (noradrenalin) increased with sodium infusion, but decreased on a high-salt diet.

Free fatty acids were on average higher with high sodium intakes, but they said this was 'not all statistically significant'.
Among the Michigan subjects, six of nine showed higher plasma fatty acids on high salt; among the Brigham and Women's subjects, only 12 of 21 showed that difference. The mean increase with a high salt diet was 32% in the first group and 33% in the second. These differences were not all statistically significant, with p values of 0.05 for the Brigham cohort and 0.146 for the Michigan cohort.

Lowered aldosterone is a good thing. Increased FFA is not desirable. Both high aldosterone and high FFA impair glucose handling. For me the question is, why did sodium increase FFA in some participants and not in others?

The authors discussed this question, but did not really come up with a definite answer. If I should guess, I would say that ones with increased FFA had lower liver glycogen stores (blood samples were taken in overnight fasted subject, even saline infusion was given to fasted subjects).

Can you explain this in layman terms. also what is urea. Thank you.
Urea is formed in the body, for example to detoxify ammonia.

Urea - Wikipedia
 

beachbum

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I posted that quote in reply to the note that the email-wiki was not available at that time. I have not really read the studies.

Only screened the first one: It says that aldosterone and insulin went down with higher salt intakes. Norepinephrine (noradrenalin) increased with sodium infusion, but decreased on a high-salt diet.

Free fatty acids were on average higher with high sodium intakes, but they said this was 'not all statistically significant'.


Lowered aldosterone is a good thing. Increased FFA is not desirable. Both high aldosterone and high FFA impair glucose handling. For me the question is, why did sodium increase FFA in some participants and not in others?

The authors discussed this question, but did not really come up with a definite answer. If I should guess, I would say that ones with increased FFA had lower liver glycogen stores (blood samples were taken in overnight fasted subject, even saline infusion was given to fasted subjects).


Urea is formed in the body, for example to detoxify ammonia.

Urea - Wikipedia
oooooh okay.. got it. Thank you very much. I guess just go by what your body is craving IMO. Don,t overdue salt but make sure you have enough..hmmm. I think you said that somewhere.
 

haidut

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why did sodium increase FFA in some participants and not in others

Because the extra salt increased metabolic requirements as the study itself said. The people on high salt diet were always hungry. So, even with good glycogen stores you can get into a fuel deficiency state depending on just how much salt revved up metabolism. Thyroid can do the same, as we all know, when consumed on empty stomach or by a malnourished person.
 

beachbum

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Because the extra salt increased metabolic requirements as the study itself said. The people on high salt diet were always hungry. So, even with good glycogen stores you can get into a fuel deficiency state depending on just how much salt revved up metabolism. Thyroid can do the same, as we all know, when consumed on empty stomach or by a malnourished person.
That sounds like if you are obviously hungry and continue to eat while glycogen stores are good that would have you burn muscle and put on weight? Just how my non scientific mind is thinking. Lol
 

haidut

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That sounds like if you are obviously hungry and continue to eat while glycogen stores are good that would have you burn muscle and put on weight? Just how my non scientific mind is thinking. Lol

No, because the extra energy you consumes will go into synthesizing urea.
 

haidut

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Really. . Wow.. I was so off. Okay this is interesting. Thank yooooooou.

That's what the whole study was about - extra salt increases urea synthesis, which is an energetically demanding process, hence the increase in caloric demands. It's even in the title.
 

beachbum

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That's what the whole study was about - extra salt increases urea synthesis, which is an energetically demanding process, hence the increase in caloric demands. It's even in the title.
I see it said that but didn't understand what it all ment. I wasn't sure if it was a good or bad thing. Giraffe explained it to some degree and you finished it. It was just very scientific reading.
Lowered aldosterone is a good thing. Increased FFA is not desirable. Both high aldosterone and high FFA impair glucose handling.
like what Giraffe explained above. I wasn't sure what ffa and aldosterone, and if the effects were good or bad. Also he explained urea which I still reading about. I thank you both for your patience of explanation.
 

artlange

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will supplementing orally with urea decrease metabolism since the body doesn't have to expend the energy to produce it? what effect will urea supplement have on body temperature? will it increase body temp if the temp was a little low?
 

Amazoniac

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Herb Doctors: Continuing Research On Urea

On urea, but you would expect the same therapeutic effect from more salt:
"[..]And to keep [the cell] towards the slightly acidic, metabolizing state, in which it doesn’t tend to proliferate; a relatively slightly dehydrating effect."

But once they're too de-energized, extra salt can be harmful:
"If the cell is disturbed, then it shifts and loses potassium and takes up calcium and sodium. This is what Gilbert Ling has devoted his life to for the last 60 some years."

I believe the amounts of salt that optimize health are a bit higher for humans in relation to other animals because we're under chronic stress. No other animal has to endure the task of comprehending Travis' posts.
 

Sonybaloney

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will supplementing orally with urea decrease metabolism since the body doesn't have to expend the energy to produce it? what effect will urea supplement have on body temperature? will it increase body temp if the temp was a little low?
I want to know this too.
 

Momado965

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The salt recommendations mentioned by Peat in some of his articles have been the source of much controversy. He has given accounts of people with various conditions recovering when they increased their salt intake to 1-2 tablespoons daily. I also posted studies showing that when sodium intake is below 5g (equivalent to about 1 tbsp salt) daily serotonin starts to rise and the renin-angiotensin system goes into overdrive, combined with increased catecholamines.
It is considered "common knowledge" across the blogopshere and even mainstream medical practice that increased salt intake increases thirst, and consequently fluid intake, while at the same time reducing fluid excretion. It is the combination of increase fluid intake and decreased excretion that is given as explanation by doctors as to why eating more salt will increase blood pressure.
This study decided to test the effects of various amounts of extra salt added to the diet of humans. The different amounts of extra salt tested were 6g, 9g, and 12g daily. What the study found was quite counterintuitive. Increasing salt intake led to decreased thirst and increased urine volume. Reducing salt intake generally had the opposite effects. What increased salt intake also did was increase urea synthesis and it was this increase in urea synthesis that allowed the kidneys to form urine saturated with sodium so that the extra sodium can get excreted. However, because synthesizing urea is such an energetically expensive process, increased salt intake indirectly increased energy requirements and thus made people hungrier as opposed to thirstier. Finally, the higher the salt intake, the lower the aldosterone release was in humans, exactly as Peat wrote. However, the higher the salt intake the higher the glucocorticoid release was in those same subjects. I think the increase in urea and energy requirements (metabolism) would be solid reasons to increase salt intake as per Peat's recommendations. However, the high cortisol release is potentially bothersome and may explain some negative effects of higher salt intake in sick people, as @burtlancast mentioned a few times.

JCI - Increased salt consumption induces body water conservation and decreases fluid intake
Mission Control for the body's salt and water supplies

"...The results confirmed that eating more salt led to a higher salt content in urine - no surprise there. Nor was there any surprise in a correlation between amounts of salt and overall quantity of urine. But the increase wasn't due to more drinking - in fact, a salty diet caused the subjects to drink less. Salt was triggering a mechanism to conserve water in the kidneys. Before the study, the prevailing hypothesis had been that the charged sodium and chloride ions in salt grabbed onto water molecules and dragged them into the urine. The new results showed something different: salt stayed in the urine, while water moved back into the kidney and body. This was completely puzzling to Prof. Jens Titze, MD of the University of Erlangen and Vanderbilt University Medical Center and his colleagues. "What alternative driving force could make water move back?" Titze asked.

"...Experiments in mice hinted that urea might be involved. This substance is formed in muscles and the liver as a way of shedding nitrogen. In mice, urea was accumulating in the kidney, where it counteracts the water-drawing force of sodium and chloride. But synthesizing urea takes a lot of energy, which explains why mice on a high-salt diet were eating more. Higher salt didn't increase their thirst, but it did make them hungrier. Also the human "cosmonauts" receiving a salty diet complained about being hungry. The project revises scientists' view of the function of urea in our bodies. "It's not solely a waste product, as has been assumed," Prof. Friedrich C. Luft, MD of the Charité and MDC says. "Instead, it turns out to be a very important osmolyte - a compound that binds to water and helps transport it. Its function is to keep water in when our bodies get rid of salt. Nature has apparently found a way to conserve water that would otherwise be carried away into the urine by salt."


This has been my experience when I took 2 Tb+ of salt.
 

burtlancast

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This illustrates the anti-cancer effects of urea, which robs tumor areas of their water, which Gar Hildenbrand explained is what paralyses normal metabolism around tumors, and which the Gerson people resolve by restricting salt
 

haidut

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robs tumor areas of their water

I think this matches well with the overall observation from Ling, Warburg, Pauling, Peat, etc that cells start to proliferate when they take up water. So, as per Peat's quote, keeping organism in a slightly dehydrated state should be potently anti-proliferative. In my experience, extra sugar causes this dehydration quite easily confirmed by strongly increased thirst in doses of 40g-50g or more per sitting.
 

BeHealthy

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@haidut between burtlancast's comments on salt and tumor growth and your quote above, I'm now a little weary about my salt intake. I've searched to see if Dr. Peat has followed up on these discussions about the possible negatives of salt intake, but haven't found anything. I'm consuming 10 grams of salt daily due to Dr. Peats recommendations - am I potentially harming myself? Any expert advice would be appreciated?

I was really excited about increasing my salt intake, too, as Dr. Peat seemed so sure about it!
 
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haidut

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@haidut between burtlancast's comments on salt and tumor growth and your quote above, I'm now a little weary about my salt intake. I've searched to see if Dr. Peat has followed up on these discussions about the possible negatives of salt intake, but haven't found anything. I'm consuming 10 grams of salt daily due to Dr. Peats recommendations - am I potentially harming myself? Any expert advice would be appreciated?

I was really excited about increasing my salt intake, too, as Dr. Peat seemed so sure about it!

I don't think 10g is that much. Up until the early 1960s the average salt intake for an adult in the US was about 12g-15g daily. These days, with everything being made "low sodium" by default, those 10g probably bring you closer to normality and not anywhere in danger-zone. But I think salt should be eaten to taste, not so much based on set daily goals.
 

rei

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Should not high salt intake be a good treatment for gout? And the gout epidemic a result of salt restriction while still having high protein intake?
 
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