Moderate protein necessary for high calories

[signalguy]

I've always seemed to have trouble losing weight when eating bodybuilder level of protein. Was scanning PubMed on nitrogen balance and found this interesting study. These sedentary people had a weight maintenance diet of 40kcal/kg and were found to be in nitrogen balance. But they were only eating around 60 grams of protein which was the RDA.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/49/6/1169.full.pdf

 

[Waremu]

Yeah, I began thinking about this a while ago. For example, if you look at every true long-term fruitarian, they never gain weight and are very slim despite easily eating 3000-4000 calories or even more per day (for many or even most of them).

I am sure PUFA depletion has a lot to do with it, but the low protein intake probably also allows the carbs to be utilized more efficiently than if they consumed a diet very high in protein, since much of the tryptophan is converted into serotonin (and even with a healthy metabolic rate, I would question why wouldn't the body also put some kind cap on tryptophan being converted to niacin, and not just convert most or all of it into the vitamin if it's needs are already met).

But for most adults who have damaged metabolisms, tryptophan (along with the other two problematic amino acids Ray talks about) probably does more damage than good (as they need no where near as much as kids who are growing do). Perhaps because most fruits are so low in and void of tryptophan, they're almost starving their bodies of serotonin production and then because the other two amino acids that are problematic (cysteine and methionine) are not being consumed in high amounts either, their metabolisms are probably not being held back from such cardinal poisons which retard carb metabolism and thus, they are very fast oxidizers of sugar. I do however wonder if some of the B vitamins and the keto acids in the citrus fruits are enough to make up for the lack of whole proteins in order to efficiently detoxify estrogen from the liver. There hasn't been enough research done on the keto acids to know this for sure, Ray peat has said. But again, their serotonin is probably very very low and along with PUFA depletion, this probably allows the activation of brown fat to kick things up (as blocking serotonin has been shown to activate brown adipose tissue, if I remember correctly), and also make things more efficient at the celular level, as these problematic hormones effect the mitochondria in the oxidation of glucose, etc.

 

[signalguy]

What I've been reading is that in experiments with "protein deficient" diets, the body activates brown fat to burn off the excess non-protein calories so that you could eat more food until protein requirements are met without getting fat.

http://thelifeofriles.blogspot.com/2010 ... nesis.html

 

[RPDiciple]

Hmm im sceptic about it since there is so many studies showing that high protein has great benefits

 

[pboy]

you need a certain amount of protein, but so many factors effect requirement

if you go catabolic at all, how much toxins you have to deal with detoxing, and you're current hormone and enzyme status, how many anti nutrients you eat, things like that.
The problem with high protein diets is that indigested protein causes some nasty toxic damage to the colon, and probably liver therein. If you are under stress at all, protein digestion is greatly inhibited...its actually profound, even the most easily digested protein. So unless you are having no stress, can breath, have space, its not wise to eat more protein than you need, a little at most. And even then, going above your need is just dirty to metabolism and less efficient, and poses more risk via the anti thyroid amino acids. I think 80 grams is like...actually pretty high and would be abundant for most people. Actual requirement is probably for a normal person eating enough calories, and having a decent diet, like 35-55grams in a day. Ive read many studies saying that under normal conditions the GI only loses about 25g protein a day, then you add in some for hair and skin cells and maybe a hint in urine but that's not supposed to happen, we don't need that much. It all depends on your situation though...the fact most people have a ton of pufa to detox means its smart to eat more than that...because the sulfates used to detox fat soluble toxins are of the protein nature. For a long time I was eating like 80-85g, then after I was done with pufas for the most part, I switched to what I do now which is like...50g. The problem is my living situation right now is really not good at all...this is how I know so many things, I changed nothing in diet, and when I moved to where I am now...many many shifts happened in my body and being, to the point it was cruely painful. This is also how I know that diet isn't everything at all. Protein stopped being digested as well, being under stress...not open and breathing, so I keep it to a minimum right now to keep me functioning until im in a better place. Its very situational. For the average person though, say having fat to detox, and in a non stressed place, the 80ish grams is a nice amount, 80-85. Someone without fat to lose and same non stressed (relatively of course, life itself is a minor stress...the basics) you can go as low as like 50grams and be totally fine, as long as your glyc don't run out. Going above 85 grams ish just means you're inefficiently using it, and probably not enough carbohydrates, unless you were eating like...3400 calories plus or something which is kind of just...not necessary for anyone other than an athlete or someone with a very intense physical job for hours on end

 

[RPDiciple]

great post pboy. I agree with most of what you are saying, its just that all the studies done esp for people that want to maintain muscle or even build muscle etc need a good amount of protein. Wich is like 1.6g/kg wich is low for some but in your regards i guess its high. I have never seen anyone with good physique or are athletic with decent muscles and low bodyfat that eat lower or low protein.

Please show me if you can

 

[FredSonoma]

you need a certain amount of protein, but so many factors effect requirement

if you go catabolic at all, how much toxins you have to deal with detoxing, and you're current hormone and enzyme status, how many anti nutrients you eat, things like that.
The problem with high protein diets is that indigested protein causes some nasty toxic damage to the colon, and probably liver therein. If you are under stress at all, protein digestion is greatly inhibited...its actually profound, even the most easily digested protein. So unless you are having no stress, can breath, have space, its not wise to eat more protein than you need, a little at most. And even then, going above your need is just dirty to metabolism and less efficient, and poses more risk via the anti thyroid amino acids. I think 80 grams is like...actually pretty high and would be abundant for most people. Actual requirement is probably for a normal person eating enough calories, and having a decent diet, like 35-55grams in a day. Ive read many studies saying that under normal conditions the GI only loses about 25g protein a day, then you add in some for hair and skin cells and maybe a hint in urine but that's not supposed to happen, we don't need that much. It all depends on your situation though...the fact most people have a ton of pufa to detox means its smart to eat more than that...because the sulfates used to detox fat soluble toxins are of the protein nature. For a long time I was eating like 80-85g, then after I was done with pufas for the most part, I switched to what I do now which is like...50g. The problem is my living situation right now is really not good at all...this is how I know so many things, I changed nothing in diet, and when I moved to where I am now...many many shifts happened in my body and being, to the point it was cruely painful. This is also how I know that diet isn't everything at all. Protein stopped being digested as well, being under stress...not open and breathing, so I keep it to a minimum right now to keep me functioning until im in a better place. Its very situational. For the average person though, say having fat to detox, and in a non stressed place, the 80ish grams is a nice amount, 80-85. Someone without fat to lose and same non stressed (relatively of course, life itself is a minor stress...the basics) you can go as low as like 50grams and be totally fine, as long as your glyc don't run out. Going above 85 grams ish just means you're inefficiently using it, and probably not enough carbohydrates, unless you were eating like...3400 calories plus or something which is kind of just...not necessary for anyone other than an athlete or someone with a very intense physical job for hours on end

Awesome post, I'm definitely under stress and have gut issues - including bloating and mild constipation. Do you think lowering my protein would help my digestive issues? I was thinking I needed to eat less fruit / fiber, or less dairy, but not less protein ( I was thinking stuff like bone broth and eggs would be the easiest to digest out of everything I eat )

 

[EIRE24]

you need a certain amount of protein, but so many factors effect requirement

if you go catabolic at all, how much toxins you have to deal with detoxing, and you're current hormone and enzyme status, how many anti nutrients you eat, things like that.
The problem with high protein diets is that indigested protein causes some nasty toxic damage to the colon, and probably liver therein. If you are under stress at all, protein digestion is greatly inhibited...its actually profound, even the most easily digested protein. So unless you are having no stress, can breath, have space, its not wise to eat more protein than you need, a little at most. And even then, going above your need is just dirty to metabolism and less efficient, and poses more risk via the anti thyroid amino acids. I think 80 grams is like...actually pretty high and would be abundant for most people. Actual requirement is probably for a normal person eating enough calories, and having a decent diet, like 35-55grams in a day. Ive read many studies saying that under normal conditions the GI only loses about 25g protein a day, then you add in some for hair and skin cells and maybe a hint in urine but that's not supposed to happen, we don't need that much. It all depends on your situation though...the fact most people have a ton of pufa to detox means its smart to eat more than that...because the sulfates used to detox fat soluble toxins are of the protein nature. For a long time I was eating like 80-85g, then after I was done with pufas for the most part, I switched to what I do now which is like...50g. The problem is my living situation right now is really not good at all...this is how I know so many things, I changed nothing in diet, and when I moved to where I am now...many many shifts happened in my body and being, to the point it was cruely painful. This is also how I know that diet isn't everything at all. Protein stopped being digested as well, being under stress...not open and breathing, so I keep it to a minimum right now to keep me functioning until im in a better place. Its very situational. For the average person though, say having fat to detox, and in a non stressed place, the 80ish grams is a nice amount, 80-85. Someone without fat to lose and same non stressed (relatively of course, life itself is a minor stress...the basics) you can go as low as like 50grams and be totally fine, as long as your glyc don't run out. Going above 85 grams ish just means you're inefficiently using it, and probably not enough carbohydrates, unless you were eating like...3400 calories plus or something which is kind of just...not necessary for anyone other than an athlete or someone with a very intense physical job for hours on end

I understand what you are saying but then why do bodybuilders eat an excess of protein and seem to get very lean and pack on a lot of muscle if you think we need much less?

Also, you think that someone who isn't active should not be eating 3400 calories?

I have been experimenting with low protein and high carb with moderate fat and my health has gotten worse. I am starting to think I need to increase protein as I seem to have lost muscle trough this phase but I seem to have encountered many problems mostly in the gut my digestion is now awful, I'm thinking of starting an anti biotic to clear out and try to start over with more easily digested foods. What do you think or advise in this situation?

 

[tara]

... many problems mostly in the gut my digestion is now awful, I'm thinking of starting an anti biotic to clear out and try to start over with more easily digested foods. What do you think or advise in this situation?

If it were me, I'd probably try a few doses of activated charcoal before considering antibiotics.

 

[tara]

Going above 85 grams ish just means you're inefficiently using it, and probably not enough carbohydrates, unless you were eating like...3400 calories plus or something which is kind of just...not necessary for anyone other than an athlete or someone with a very intense physical job for hours on end

Or maybe just a normal healthy growing young man with normal activity, or recovering from semi-starvation.

 

[Stuart]

That fruitarians are always skinny has always struck me as strong evidence that low carb/high protein diets for weight loss are missing the point a bit.