Mk-4 Without Vitamin D?

[Coderr]

Would it be a problem to use K2 mk-4 without taking vitamin D supplements? Or if I take calcium instead of vitamin D?

 

[meatbag]

Would it be a problem to use K2 mk-4 without taking vitamin D supplements? Or if I take calcium instead of vitamin D?

Yeah, the only fat soluble vitamin I've read that needs to be balanced is vitamin d with vitamin k, K2 by itself is fine

 

[Estradiol]

Vitamin D should be balanced not K2.

K2 is completely safe.

 

[Maljam]

Would it be a problem to use K2 mk-4 without taking vitamin D supplements? Or if I take calcium instead of vitamin D?

Depends on the dosages you are using. At low amounts it probably isnt as important.

 

[Maljam]

Yeah, the only fat soluble vitamin I've read that needs to be balanced is vitamin d with vitamin k, K2 by itself is fine

I have read this before but am skeptical. There are thousands of studies showing benefits of vitamin D, one of the most studied substances, but how many balance with K? I believe vitamin D is the most taken supplement in the western world, how many people do you know that are taking K? Of course dosages are important.

 

[Estradiol]

I have read this before but am skeptical. There are thousands of studies showing benefits of vitamin D, one of the most studied substances, but how many balance with K? I believe vitamin D is the most taken supplement in the western world, how many people do you know that are taking K? Of course dosages are important.

People don't even know what K is. Mainstream always markets Vitamin D.

I don't think oral Vitamin D is safe.

 

[Maljam]

People don't even know what K is. Mainstream always markets Vitamin D.

I don't think oral Vitamin D is safe.

How come there are thousands upon thousands of scientific studies showing benefits using only vitamin D? (Serious question, I'm not 100% sure the answer myself)

 

[Estradiol]

How come there are thousands upon thousands of scientific studies showing benefits using only vitamin D? (Serious question, I'm not 100% sure the answer myself)

There are bad studies about too.

Vitamin D causes calcium to rise which is an aging process. Active form of Vitamin D Calcitriol causes calcification of organs.

Also opens L-Type Calcium Channels which raises intracellular calcium and iron. Causes hypertension.

Vitamin K is antagonist of all these calcium actions.

Supplemental Vitamin D is a big no for me. Don't know about sun.

 

[Maljam]

There are bad studies about too.

Vitamin D causes calcium to rise which is an aging process. Active form of Vitamin D Calcitriol causes calcification of organs.

Also opens L-Type Calcium Channels which raises intracellular calcium and iron. Causes hypertension.

Vitamin K is antagonist of all these calcium actions.

Supplemental Vitamin D is a big no for me. Don't know about sun.

Of course there are bad studies, but you are overlooking the quantity of Vitamin D studies. There are almost 86,000 on pubmed when you search vitamin D.

A flaw in all of that happens in the first section "calcitrol." Who takes calcitrol? All the supplements that pop up when I search for vitamin D are cholecalciferol, which almost everyone I read, including Peat, recommends.

You should make very clear you are talking about calcitrol when you publish your views on vitamin D, it is not the same as cholecalciferol.

 

[Estradiol]

Of course there are bad studies, but you are overlooking the quantity of Vitamin D studies. There are almost 86,000 on pubmed when you search vitamin D.

A flaw in all of that happens in the first section "calcitrol." Who takes calcitrol? All the supplements that pop up when I search for vitamin D are cholecalciferol, which almost everyone I read, including Peat, recommends.

You should make very clear you are talking about calcitrol when you publish your views on vitamin D, it is not the same as cholecalciferol.

No, I don't have to do anything. There's no point of over-protecting a substance or supplement.

It's a mainstream trash for me. People can look and have their own ideas.

 

[Maljam]

No, I don't have to do anything. There's no point of over-protecting a substance or supplement.

It's a mainstream trash for me. People can look and have their own ideas.

But you are misrepresenting vitamin D by claiming all vitamin D is the same. What if someone with health problems decides not to take vitamin D and prolongs their poor health because of your inaccurate advice, would you not feel guilty? This place is for people to help one another and everybody's health improve through discussion.

People distinguish between the different forms for vitamin K, it shouldnt cause you too much trouble to make sure you let people know your opinions are based on a hardly used and never recommended form of vitamin D.

 

[baccheion]

There are bad studies about too.

Vitamin D causes calcium to rise which is an aging process. Active form of Vitamin D Calcitriol causes calcification of organs.

Also opens L-Type Calcium Channels which raises intracellular calcium and iron. Causes hypertension.

Vitamin K is antagonist of all these calcium actions.

Supplemental Vitamin D is a big no for me. Don't know about sun.

Is this fully reversed by vitamin K2 and magnesium (and potassium)? Would it be better to minimize A and D3, raise K2, and what else? What processes are antiaging? What vitamins/minerals?

I assume sodium in cells also has the same aging effect? Therefore more potassium and magnesium along with less sodium and calcium (channels)?

 

[Maljam]

Is this fully reversed by vitamin K2 and magnesium (and potassium)? Would it be better to minimize A and D3, raise K2, and what else? What processes are antiaging? What vitamins/minerals?

I assume sodium in cells also has the same aging effect? Therefore more potassium and magnesium along with less sodium and calcium (channels)?

HE IS TALKING ABOUT CALCITROL, NOT CHOLECALCIFEROL, THE MOST COMMON FORM OF VITAMIN D SUPPLEMENT.

See what I mean @Estradiol people are already being confused and misled by your inaccurate statements, literally minutes after I suggested this might happen. This is exactly why you should make it clear the forms you are talking about. Literally nobody is recommending calcitrol.

 

[Estradiol]

HE IS TALKING ABOUT CALCITROL, NOT CHOLECALCIFEROL, THE MOST COMMON FORM OF VITAMIN D SUPPLEMENT.

See what I mean @Estradiol people are already being confused and misled by your inaccurate statements, literally minutes after I suggested this might happen. This is exactly why you should make it clear the forms you are talking about. Literally nobody is recommending calcitrol.

Vitamin D also can increase calcium by all means.

 

[Maljam]

Vitamin D also can increase calcium by all means.

And drinking 30 litres of water will kill you, but a glass is a nice refreshing drink. Taking normal amounts of vitamin D (cholecalciferol) has been shown to be safe time and time again.


"Finally, even high doses vitamin D3 used in some of these studies did not cause hypercalcemia, so the most feared side effect of vitamin D is apparently not that common"
Vitamin D Is Endotoxin (LPS / TLR4) Antagonist, May Treat LPS-linked Conditions

 

[Estradiol]

And drinking 30 litres of water will kill you, but a glass is a nice refreshing drink. Taking normal amounts of vitamin D (cholecalciferol) has been shown to be safe time and time again.


"Finally, even high doses vitamin D3 used in some of these studies did not cause hypercalcemia, so the most feared side effect of vitamin D is apparently not that common"
Vitamin D Is Endotoxin (LPS / TLR4) Antagonist, May Treat LPS-linked Conditions

Intracellullar and blood are completely different things. I still don't find it safe. And that's my idea so stop over-protecting it.

 

[Maljam]

Intracellullar and blood are completely different things. I still don't find it safe. And that's my idea so stop over-protecting it.

Why are you here? What are you doing on this forum? (Serious question.)

Adequate vitamin D is one of the absolute cornerstones of Peats beliefs and one he talks about time and time again. Look at some of his email replies to people, the vast majority of them mention vitamin D.

I am trying to explain to you your idea is not only wrong but potentially damaging to forum members health that take your advice, it is also directly contradictory to what Peat says. Peat never talks about calcitrol when he explains the benefits of vitamin D, you are only talking about calcitrol when you explain the negatives. How do you not see that as a problem?

 

[Estradiol]

Why are you here? What are you doing on this forum? (Serious question.)

Adequate vitamin D is one of the absolute cornerstones of Peats beliefs and one he talks about time and time again. Look at some of his email replies to people, the vast majority of them mention vitamin D.

I am trying to explain to you your idea is not only wrong but potentially damaging to forum members health that take your advice, it is also directly contradictory to what Peat says. Peat never talks about calcitrol when he explains the benefits of vitamin D, you are only talking about calcitrol when you explain the negatives. How do you not see that as a problem?

Should I ask you to what the write or not? You don't have to accept all the ideas of Ray Peat. People can research.

Not accepting Ray's ideas doesn't mean misleading people.

 

[LucH]

Interaction between vitamins A D K (Synergy)
Vitamin K2 is the substance that makes the vitamin A- and vitamin D-dependent proteins come to life. While vitamins A and D act as signaling molecules, telling cells to make certain proteins, vitamin K2 activates these proteins by conferring upon them the physical ability to bind calcium. In some cases these proteins directly coordinate the movement or organization of calcium themselves; in other cases the calcium acts as a glue to hold the protein in a certain shape.33 In all such cases, the proteins are only functional once they have been activated by vitamin K.
Source : Synergy between vitamins A D K
Note: To see the other links the forum host will require registration. Sorry.

Carboxylating osteocalcin, a K2-dependent protein
Note: Excerpts with original text (+ translation) of a book written by Kate Rheaume-Blue
=> Triage Theory of Aging :

Spoiler: Carboxylating osteocalcin, a K2-dependent protein

When people are put on vitamin K-deficient diets in experimental situations, under-carboxylated osteocalcin levels increase weeks before under-carboxylated coagulation factors increase. (3) The body assigns more urgency to blood clotting, diverting limited vitamin K resources to that function, and bone health quietly suffers because of it. This illustrates the triage theory perfectly: you have to be desperately deficient in vitamin K1 for blood clotting problems to manifest, whereas a slight lack of K2 allows osteoporosis and atherosclerosis to progress silently for decades before symptoms appear.
Scientists now conclude that long-term vitamin K2 inadequacy is “an independent, but modifiable risk factor for the development of degenerative diseases of ageing, including osteoporosis and atherosclerosis.” (4) In other words, apart from any other contributing factor for chronic disease, not having enough vitamin K2 throughout life to completely carboxylate all of your vitamin K2-dependent proteins will increase your risk of illness down the road. The good news is that you can bump up your intake of vitamin K2 and thereby lower your risk of age-related conditions such as bone fragility, arterial and kidney calcification, cardiovascular disease and cancer.5
The triage theory of aging could also be called the triage theory of nutrient requirements. This concept exposes the reality that we’ve been taking the wrong approach to setting recommended daily intake (RDI) levels. RDIs are based on the very minimum amount of a given nutrient that is needed to prevent an acute (short-term) deficiency. According to the triage theory, if we have less than optimal levels of any nutrient, even for a single day, we will pay the price in long-term injury. That explains why so many apparently healthy people can get by with vitamin K2 deficiency — they’re going to pay for it later. Let’s take a look at the major age-related concerns of vitamin K2 insufficiency, and the health benefits you can expect from maintaining an optimal menaquinone intake.

 

[Maljam]

Should I ask you to what the write or not? You don't have to accept all the ideas of Ray Peat. People can research.

Not accepting Ray's ideas doesn't mean misleading people.

But presenting them as "vitamin D is bad because x" is misleading people, because your problems are with a hardly used form of it. I'm not sure what part of this you are struggling to grasp.

It's like having a problem with mk-7 k2, but everyone else is talking about mk-4, everyone else is using mk-4 but you wont make it clear you are actually meaning mk-7, which could put off people that would otherwise benefit from mk-4.