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MitoLipin - Dietary Supplement For Cardiolipin And Mitochondria Support

  1. Ray has written extensively about the mitochondria and its crucial role in health. The structure and contents of the mitochondria undergo extensive change as part of the aging process and one of the most important constituents of mitochondria is the lipid cardiolipin (CL). CL is crucial for the proper function of complex IV (cytochrome C oxidase) of the electron transport chain, and oxidative metabolism as a whole. In addition, there is evidence that CL is also crucial for the proper functioning of Complex III and V.
    Cardiolipin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "...In mammalian cells, but also in plant cells,[2][3] cardiolipin (CL) is found almost exclusively in the inner mitochondrial membrane where it is essential for the optimal function of numerous enzymes that are involved in mitochondrial energy metabolism."

    "...The enzyme cytochrome c oxidase or Complex IV is a large transmembrane protein complex found in bacteria and the mitochondrion. It is the last enzyme in the respiratory electron transport chain of mitochondria (or bacteria) located in the mitochondrial (or bacterial) membrane. It receives an electron from each of four cytochrome c molecules, and transfers them to one oxygen molecule, converting molecular oxygen to two molecules of water. Complex IV has been shown to require two associated CL molecules in order to maintain its full enzymatic function. Cytochrome bc1(Complex III) also needs cardiolipin to maintain its quaternary structure and to maintains its functional role.[15] Complex V of the oxidative phosphorylation machinery also displays high binding affinity for CL, binding four molecules of CL per molecule of complex V.[16]"

    Another important function of CL is the activation of the mitochondrial side-cleavage enzyme, which is responsible for the synthesis of pregnenolone from cholesterol.
    "...
    • Cholesterol translocation from outer to the inner membrane of mitochondrial
    • Activates mitochondrial cholesterol side-chain cleavage
    ..."

    Given the importance of CL for proper functioning of mitochondria, it is not surprising that it plays a very important role in both health and disease.

    "...Oxidative stress and lipid peroxidation are believed to be contributing factors leading to neuronal loss and mitochondrial dysfunction in the substantia nigra in Parkinson's disease, and may play an early role in the pathogenesis of Alzheimer's disease.[20][21] It is reported that CL content in the brain decreases with aging,[22] and a recent study on rat brain shows it results from lipid peroxidation in mitochondria exposed to free radical stress. Another study shows that the CL biosynthesis pathway may be selectively impaired, causing 20% reduction and composition change of the CL content.[23] It’s also associated with a 15% reduction in linked complex I/III activity of the electron transport chain, which is thought to be a critical factor in the development of Parkinson's disease.[24]"

    "...Recently, it is reported that in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease[25] and heart failure[26], decreased CL levels and change in acyl chain composition are also observed in the mitochondrial dysfunction. However, the role of CL in aging and ischemia/reperfusion is still controversial."

    "...Heart disease hits people with diabetes twice as often as people without diabetes. In those with diabetes, cardiovascular complications occur at an earlier age and often result in premature death, making heart disease the major killer of diabetic people. Cardiolipin has recently been found to be deficient in the heart at the earliest stages of diabetes, possibly due to a lipid-digesting enzyme that becomes more active in diabetic heart muscle.[29]"

    "...It was first proposed by Otto Heinrich Warburg that cancer originated from irreversible injury to mitochondrial respiration, but the structural basis for this injury has remained elusive. Since cardiolipin is an important phospholipid found almost exclusively in the inner mitochondrial membrane and very essential in maintaining mitochondrial function, it is suggested that abnormalities in CL can impair mitochondrial function and bioenergetics. A study[32] published in 2008 on mouse brain tumors supporting Warburg’s cancer theory shows major abnormalities in CL content or composition in all tumors."

    "...Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is debilitating illness of unknown cause that often follows an acute viral infection. According to one research study, 95% of CFS patients have anti-cardiolipin antibodies."


    And here are some quotes from Ray that also highlight the importance of CL for mitochondrial function and oxidative metabolism.
    Fats, functions and malfunctions.
    "...The crucial mitochondrial respiratory enzyme, cytochrome c oxidase, declines with aging (Paradies, et al., 1997), as the lipid cardiolipin declines, and the enzyme's activity can be restored to the level of young animals by adding cardiolipin. The composition of cardiolipin changes with aging, "specifically an increase in highly unsaturated fatty acids" (Lee, et al., 2006). Other lipids, such as a phosphatidylcholine containing two myristic acid groups, can support the enzyme's activity (Hoch, 1992). Even supplementing old animals with hydrogenated peanut oil restores mitochondrial respiration to about 80% of normal (Bronnikov, et al., 2010). Supplementing thyroid hormone increases mitochondrial cardiolipin (Paradies and Ruggiero, 1988). Eliminating the polyunsaturated fats from the diet increases mitochondrial respiration (Rafael, et al., 1984)."

    Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic
    "...After weaning, these native fats gradually disappear from the tissues and are replaced by the EFA and their derivatives. The age-related decline in our ability to use oxygen and to produce energy corresponds closely to the substitution of linoleic acid for the endogenous fats, in cardiolipin, which regulates the crucial respiratory enzyme, cytochrome oxidase."

    Mitochondria and mortality
    "...This fatty acid exposure "decreases glucose tolerance," and undoubtedly explains women's higher incidence of diabetes. While most fatty acids inhibit the oxidation of glucose without immediately inhibiting glycolysis, palmitic acid is unusual, in its inhibition of glycolysis and lactate production without inhibitng oxidation. I assume that this largely has to do with its important function in cardiolipin and cytochrome oxidase."

    "...Fewer mitochondrial problems will be considered to be inherited, as we develop an integral view of the ways in which mitochondrial physiology is disrupted. Palmitic acid, which is a major component of the cardiolipin which regulates the main respiratory enzyme, becomes displaced by polyunsaturated fats as aging progresses. Copper tends to be lost from this same enzyme system, and the state of the water is altered as the energetic processes change."

    Aspirin, brain, and cancer
    "...At birth, the baby's mitochondria contain a phospholipid, cardiolipin, containing palmitic acid, but as the baby eats foods containing poly-unsaturated fatty acids, the palmitic acid in cardiolipin is replaced by the unsaturated fats. As the cardiolipin becomes more unsaturated, it becomes less stable, and less able to support the activity of the crucial respiratory enzyme, cytochrome oxidase. The respiratory activity of the mitochondria declines as the polyunsaturated oils replace palmitic acid, and this change corresponds to the life-long decline of the person's metabolic rate. In old age, a person's life expectancy strongly depends on the amount of oxygen that can be used. When the mitochondria can't use oxygen vigorously, cells must depend on inefficient glycolysis for their energy."

    Aging Eyes, Infant Eyes, and Excitable Tissues
    "...Cytochrome oxidase is one of the enzymes damaged by stress and by blue light, and activated or restored by red light, thyroid, and progesterone. It's a copper enzyme, so it's likely to be damaged by excess iron. It is most active when it is associated with a mitochondrial lipid, cardiolipin, that contains saturated palmitic acid;the substitution of polyunsaturated fats lowers its activity. Mitochonrial function in general is poisoned by the unsaturated fats, especially arachidonic acid and DHA."


    As hinted by one of Ray's quotes above, in order to ensure the proper functioning of the enzyme cytochrome C oxidase, the cardiolipin (CL) must contain saturated fatty acids. If CL has been unsaturated by aging or another process, one way to get it saturated again is to supplement saturated cardiolipin directly. However, that process is unstable and wasteful. As Ray also mentioned, another approach would be to supplement with saturated phosphatidylcholine (PC), which bring saturated fatty acids directly into the CL and re-saturates it back to its state where it was when a person was first born. It is of key importance to note that in order for this process to work, the PC must be saturated - i.e. consist of lecithin linked to one of the saturated fatty acids, with palmitic acid being the most desired. The regular PC sold in stores is high unsaturated and will not only lack beneficial effect but may actually be harmful.
    As such, I have decided to release a supplement called MitoLipin containing saturated PC, more specifically dipalmitoylphosphatidylcholine (DPPC) and distearoylphosphatidylcholine (DSPC). Ray has responded to several people over email that if he could fund an affordable source of saturated PC he would probably supplement with it, and suggested doses in the 100mg - 300mg daily, at dinner.
    Finally, I would like note that apparent ability of saturated PC to enhance topical absorption of virtually any substance dissolved in it, which is very similar to the properties of DMSO. Thus, applying the supplement (MitoLipin) topically should have excellent absorption, perhaps even better than oral. To enhance the absorption and entry into the cell, the saturated PC is dissolved in tocopherol and MCT. Below is the summarized information about the supplement and some scientific references in regards to its effects.


    *******************************************************************************
    MitoLipin is a dietary supplement containing fully saturated phosphatidylcholine (PC). The saturated PC supports the function and structure of the mitochondrial lipid cardiolipin (CL). The CL is crucial for the proper functioning of several of the electron transport chain complexes (III, IV, and V) responsible for oxidative phosphorylation. The composition of CL changes with aging and becomes increasingly unsaturated. Saturated PC is believed to change the composition of CL back to saturated, as it is found in humans at birth, and thus restore optimal oxidative metabolism inside the mitochondria of every cell. This product, while consisting entirely of food-grade ingredients, is sanctioned for external use only.

    Servings per container: about 30
    Serving size: 40 drops
    Each serving contains the following ingredients:

    Dipalmitoylphosphatidylcholine (DPPC) - 100mg
    Distearoylphosphatidylcholine (DSPC) - 100mg

    Other ingredients: MCT, tocopherol
    *******************************************************************************

    References:


    Topical Administration:
    The skin-permeation-enhancing effect of phosphatidylcholine: caffeine as a model active ingredient. - PubMed - NCBI
    The hypocholesterolemic and antiatherogenic effects of topically applied phosphatidylcholine in rabbits with heritable hypercholesterolemia. - PubMed - NCBI
    Effects of phosphatidylcholine on the topical bioavailability of corticosteroids assessed by the human skin blanching assay. - PubMed - NCBI

    General/Miscellaneous:
    Cell membranes and apoptosis: role of cardiolipin, phosphatidylcholine, and anticancer lipid analogues. - PubMed - NCBI
    Biochemical effects of phosphatidylcholine treatment in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
    Rapid stopping of A23187 action by phosphatidylcholine. - PubMed - NCBI
    Blockade of alpha-adrenergic receptors by analogues of phosphatidylcholine. - PubMed - NCBI
    The effect of mixed phosphatidylcholine liposomes on beef heart cytochrome c oxidase [proceedings]. - PubMed - NCBI
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349506725899
    Inhibition of mammalian cytotoxic cells by phosphatidylcholine and its analogue
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/163252

    Inflammation:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18987473
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17636253
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23776397
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19215923

    Brain/Memory/Mood/Cognition/Nervous system:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25817232
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18361742
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23979483
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21937953
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9377589
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2938205
    http://www.amsciepub.com/doi/abs/10...d=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub=pubmed&
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673683921086
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/555240

    Liver/Gallbladder:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17399847
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25775923
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25783052
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26629827
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16550803
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15975496
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12837851
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7539565
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24292666
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21745592
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20832797
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8276192
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8276177

    Gut/Bowel/GI/Endotoxin:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25250596
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25477376
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18496240
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17975182
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24796768
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18461026
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16482629
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15951544
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15345455
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11469682
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7493735
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23295697
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22576006
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22100851
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21105858
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21081908
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20926877
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20595010
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20135022
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048683
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19594939
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19120061
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8430278
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8399676
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1596725
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1289171

    Heart/Kidney:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23684996
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1420493

    Cancer:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17399847
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24772432
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19579625

    Obesity/Diabetes/Metabolism:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25445436
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22468042
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22145579
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21614002

    Bones:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19766625
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19296835

    Anti-viral/anti-bacterial:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9708184
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8516563
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1570416
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1530351
     
  2. What effects have you noticed from using these ingredients in this way, haidut?
     
  3. I know cardiolipin composition can be manipulated through diet ( via intake of saturated fats and omega 3) but this is a relatively slow process. Tucker writes a nice article about it here

    Where exactly is the evidence of "Saturated PC is believed to change the composition of CL back to saturated". You posted a lot of studies so I would like to be spoonfed where to find information on that if at all possible, lol. Even a condensed explanation of what the mechanisms are would be great.

    If the claims are true this will be an incredible product.
     
  4. Is it a precursor to acetylcholine? I have taken choline based supplements before, and they have always blackened my mood.

    Also, on the wiki, they talk of a study where the microbal metabolites of phosphatidycholine are causing increased atherosclerosis in mice through choline, betaine and TMAO. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that, Haidut.

    Ordering a bottle now, though. If this one blackens my mood, choline supplements are out for good (I have previously tried CDP, alpha GPC and another one I forget the name of).
     
  5. After about a week of taking 200mg, I felt like I was getting uncoupling effects and lost some weight. My waking temps were around 99 but pulse did not change. It also made me able to focus and do much longer stretches of mental effort. Mood improved a lot as well. Similar to the effects of a very high dose methylene blue (60mg). However, with that dose of methylene blue I experienced very pronounced increase in serotonin and it is not something that can be maintained for more than a few days. With MitoLipin (both topical and oral) I felt much more blissful, without the nervousness from the serotonin of high dose methylene blue. I guess the effects I got from MitoLipin are not that surprising since it acts very similar to methylene blue but through a different pathway. Methylene blue is an electron carrier and alternative oxidizing agent. MitoLipin acts like an antagonist of PUFA, so re-saturates the mitochondrial lipids. So, its effects are a bit like depleting yourself of PUFA but you don't have to wait 4 years to accomplish that :)
    I hope that answers your questions.
     
  6. Very good points. Juts like you pointed out, cardiolipin can be manupulated through diet but it would take months/years to have any effects. The properties of phosphatidylcholine make it such that the saturated fat in it is carried directly into the mitochondria. So, it re-saturates the cell from the inside. Peat told me that over email and there are studies showing saturated PC like DPPC protects the cell from PUFA toxicity. Basically, lecithin is a very good carrier for substances to go directly into the cell mitochondria, and phosphatidylcholine is even better. There are many pharma drugs that are being either encapsulated in phosphatidylcholine in order to improve their penetration into the cell. You can think of saturated PC as carrier of saturated fat directly into the mitochondria, similar to the effectiveness with which DMSO carries steroids into the cell. Finally, judging from its structure, saturated PC is an electron acceptor or a type of electron withdrawing group (EWG) as Gilbert Ling labels substances. Here are some links to consider:
    Dipalmitoylphosphatidylcholine (dppc) Protects From Pufa Cytotoxicity
    Saturated Fats And Mitochondrias

    The second thread above has a long discussion about DPPC and studies about its effects. The studies were sent by Peat. Also, here are some links about using PC as a carrier of substances into the cell/mitochondria.

    Phosphatidylcholine, an edible carrier for nanoencapsulation of unstable thiamine. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...The crystalline nature of thiamine was analyzed by X-ray diffraction studies. Storage studies indicated that the nanoliposomes were highly stable up to 3 months at different temperatures. Thus, phosphatidylcholine can be used as carrier vehicle of nutrients especially vitamins, as it can form stable nanoliposomes with 97% encapsulation efficiency."

    http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/AJFS/article-full-text-pdf/557347144263
    "...Phosphatidylcholine is a yellowish, hygroscopic and little stable solid (Figure 3). It is easily decomposed at high temperatures and degraded by the action of oxygen when exposed to air and moisture for long periods. Its main degradation product is the lysophosphatidylcholine resulting from hydrolysis of the ester function on the carbon at positions 1 or 2 of glycerol, giving a molecule with only one non-polar chain (Reis, 2010). Its presence dramatically increases the permeability of liposome membranes and reduces the capacity of retaining encapsulated material (Lutz et al., 1995)."

    Recent Developments in Delivery, Bioavailability, Absorption and Metabolism of Curcumin: the Golden Pigment from Golden Spice
    "...Curcumin-decorated nanoliposomes has shown high affinity for amyloid-β1-42 peptide and exhibit protective effects against Alzhiemer's disease [66]. LEC also suppresses HNSCC growth in vitro and xenograft tumor in mice [40]. Curcumin liposomes of dimyristoyl phosphatidyl choline and cholesterol inhibit proliferation of prostate cancer cell 10 times more than curcumin [67]."
     
  7. In theory, it is a precursor to acetylcholine. However, the studies with PC (and especially saturated PC) did not show any cholinergic effects. See the studies in the brain/mood section of the original thread. The primary benefit of saturated PC is to protect the cell from PUFA toxicity and re-saturate the cardiolipin inside the mitochondria. If it has any cholinergic effets, they are probably seen in multi-gram doses. In the doses found in MitoLipin, it is similar to eating 2 eggs, but without the PUFA that they contain. See this:
    Dipalmitoylphosphatidylcholine (dppc) Protects From Pufa Cytotoxicity
     
  8. Congrats on another intriguing product, Haidut!

    Here's the title-ified references since the forum appears to have given up partway through:

    Topical Administration:

    General/Miscellaneous:

    Inflammation:

    Brain/Memory/Mood/Cognition/Nervous system:

    Liver/Gallbladder:

    Gut/Bowel/GI/Endotoxin:

    Heart/Kidney:

    Cancer:

    Obesity/Diabetes/Metabolism:

    Bones:

    Anti-viral/anti-bacterial:
     
  9. I'll give some a shot haidut. You just used it for a week, anything to be aware of on longer term use? I.E the build up of MB overtime, etc. Are there any similar products out there to compare it to? In my experience I have not seen anything like it.
     
  10. @haidut How were you able to bring down the costs? Or did you find a way to saturate it?
     
  11. Any idea how long it would to saturate one's CL stores given the daily dose (say for a 30/40/50/60 yo)?

    How long will this product keep?
     
  12. Haidut, Hi! I wonder, just how useful this supplement may be for a non-peater with high cholesterol and how long it might take to lower it, if you have any information on this? Looks very promising.
     
  13. Would it work to unsaturate your fatty tissues (not just cell membranes) as well then making it produce less aromatase?
    If you are eating a bit of PUFA (like 2g/day) would it compete with it in your body to remove it?

    Would it be a good idea to still eat eggs with it as it has some PUFA in it?

    Have you thought about making some liposomal supplements?

    Thanks for your great ideas!
     
  14. Huuuum, interesting, would be awesome if Ray Peat orders a bottle
     

  15. Thanks Dan. Much appreciated.
     
  16. I have used for longer than a week, it's the uncoupling effects that I got after a week of use. Before I release any suplpement, I use it for a month on myself and a few friends willing to contribute to science :) As far as I can see there is no issue with buildup and it is probably something to be desired, especially if you have a lot of stored PUFA. Take a look at the studies I posted above on PC as treatment for ulcerative colitis. The studies lasted a long time with no side effects.
    To my knowledge, there is no other supplement like this on the market right now.
     
  17. One of the chemical suppliers that I use agreed to synthesize a much bigger quantity of DPPC/DSTC for lower price, given that I buy a lot of stuff from them. DPPC is the really expensive part, and most of the cost is for it.
     
  18. I don't know for sure but most studies on cholesterol, liver health, and brain condition saw benefits within 4-8 weeks. The reversal of cirrhosis with saturated PC is an established fact in Russia and some other Eastern European countries where saturated PC is sold as a drug for liver disease. I think a human course for cirrhosis runs for 2 months. You should also be able to tell by running some liver tests and metabolic tests like cholesterol, CO2, and NEFA.
     
  19. The studies with saturated PC on cholesterol, liver fat and TG lasted 4-8 weeks. With the risk of you not buying it I will say that something like 2g taurine/glycine, 15mg biotin, 100mg pregnenolone, 5mg DHEA, etc can give you the same bang for much less buck. The purpose of this supplement is not so much cholesterol as it is to systemically antagonize PUFA toxicity in every cell and revert the mitochondria back to its youthful state. Lower cholesterol and leaner liver are are just symptoms of that rejuvenation. But if you want to buy it, I am not going to talk you out of it :)
     
  20. Ok just ordered it. Haidut is the Mitolipin light sensitive? Does it stain? How long does it need to be left on the skin?
     
  21. @haidut - how do you, personally, take this product? Do you use it orally or mainly topically?

    Best,
    J
     
  22. Ordered 3 bottles. 40 Drops per serving. Sounds like a lot of drops. Is that what you recommend? All at once or multiple times a day or doesn't matter?

    I love this because, say it works, and it turns me into even more of an wild animal than I already am, and I can tell my friends and family I found a secret supplement that contains "saturated phosphatidylcholine" which bring saturated fatty acids directly into the Cardiolipin and re-saturates it back to its state where it was when a person was first born, and I can learn to say that with a straight face really fast even though I am from Texas, the looks on their faces will be priceless as I sip on my Mexican Coke and try to keep from bursting out laughing.
     
  23. Haidut, you are forcing me to step up my bio-hacking game. You introduce things I hadn't ever thought of. Well done.
     
  24. It is not as light sensitive as vitamin K and B2 but it would still help to keep it away from direct sunlight. No need to refrigerate as all the substances in it are saturated. It does not stain but may keep your skin a bit greasy for 30min. The larger the area you spread it on, the quicker is absorbs and the less greasy it will make you.
     
  25. So if we are already doing the fat free pufa depletion would we see much benefit from using this? I am so used to going fat free that I plan on staying this way forevs.
     
  26. I think even 20 drops would probably be fine if combined with something like methylene blue (Oxidal) or aspirin. The dose is based on what Peat said to some people over email, so it is a god start but if you find that you feel effects from a lower dose of say 20 drops, there is no need to go aggressive and take 3 doses daily.
    I hear you on the friend faces. When I even mention plain phosphatidylcholine to my co-workers I get s blank stare and after 5min silence somebody rubmles "...dude, just take some fish oil".
     
  27. I use it orally if to prevent gut irritation given the studies on it for Chron's, IBS, IBD, and protection from aspirin damage. So, if I know I will be eating something like starch or even lentils, I take 20 drops orally. Otherwise I take it topically as it absorbs rather well and the effects on skin are amazing, even though I do not care much about that.
     
  28. Lol, thanks! The next supplement may be even wilder as it would probably be something obscure based on Russian science from the Cold War. I will call it SpyMax. Just kidding...on the name, but I am looking into getting some Russian research into a bottle.
     
  29. I think PUFA depletion it still the way to go long term, as if you stop taking MitoLipin and your PUFA stores are still high it will de-saturate cardiolipin again. So, MitoLipin is a good suplement to use to mimic PUFA deficiency while you are depleting it body-wide. Maybe also a good protection mechanism for people doing exhaustive sports and triggering lipolysis. The vitamin E in it will protect somewhat from PUFA NEFA and the saturated PC should reverse the damage done by the remaining NEFA.
     
  30. So to be on the safe side...we could take Mitolipin for a few years to make sure we are PUFA free (or theoretically just a few months if we do fat free pufa depletion like you mentioned in that thread;))....and after we are "pufa free"...and the CL's are resaturated...we wouldn't need to take it anymore?
     
  31. Yes, that is correct. Either not need it at all or take only as needed with a big PUFA meal.
     
  32. Thanks a lot Haidut this sounds amazing. If it was to be taken orally for the potential GI benefits, should I swallow it straight or mix it with water? And also is there any possible interaction/contraindications with red light? I read a study about methylene blue and red light causing DNA damage to the esophagus so you never know lol
     
  33. My mom is in the early stages of Alzheimer's and I was getting ready to start her on Aspirin and Niacinamide (and maybe Methylene blue) However, most older folks are set in their ways and find it difficult to make too many changes at once.
    That said, it seems like it would be considerably easier to give her one, maybe two supplements rather than several.
    Would Mitolipin alone be a good suppliment for Alzheimers (assuming yes) or would it be best to add something else like Niacinamide, aspirin, etc.
    Thank you @haidut for making these suppliments!
     
  34. No mixing with water, the PC is so hydrophobic that it will immedietaly precipitate and form a whitish cloud inside the liquid. For the people that choose on their own volition to take orally, taken on its own is best. It has enough fat and vitamin E in it to ensure absorption.
     
  35. I'll be honest and say that the research behind aspirin and methylene blue is a lot more in terms of quantity. While MitoLipin has some studies and solid biochemical reason why it should help, it has not been studied much for beta amyloid support. But it tastes a lot better than either aspirin or methylene blue :)
     
  36. Glastmost? Psy-Bear-ry-al? Tsar-Non?
     
  37. How about a short acting side effect free non addictive methamphetamine for cognitive enhancement. I'm sure if you make it topical only the fda will leave you alone. :wacky:

    I kid I kid...

    So if I want to see any fatloss effect with this do I need to stop taking aspirin everyday? I'm bout to order 4 bottles haidut!
     
  38. Lol, Gorba-chol, Puti-nal, Medvedi-lin...
     
  39. If you are getting benefits from aspirin then I'd keep taking it. The fat loss studies with humans injected the PC into the fat tissue, so you'd have to rub it instead as an approximation. I don't think this would prevent you from using aspirin.
     
  40. Maybe you could send some to Ray so he can experiment with it ?
     
  41. What?!? Methylene Blue and red light can cause DNA damage to the esophagus?!? Why did everyone just gloss over that? I've read on the forum that red light and MB are actually very good for your metabolism. Where is the study about DNA damage?
     
  42. Gosh - there is so much info. on this forum that I cannot keep up with it! This sounds like an intriguing product for sure. @haidut - if you don't mind my asking, do you think this product will help someone whose undergone "starvation" diets (the usual under-eating and over-exercising) in the past and burned through most of their PUFA reserves (thus inducing mitochondrial damage)? Or is it more for just changing the fat composition? Either way, if it helps with digestion, I'd be willing to try it - coming from a long history of digestive whoas and have yet to find a solid solution. I like the idea of having something to take when I might have to eat foods I know can be problematic. Thanks in advance for an answer :)
     
  43. Not sure where do you see that in my quote you provided??
     
  44. It should help reverse the damage of PUFA oxidation, but if the person is exercising, taurine and vitamin E will protect from the damage even occurring in the first place. MitoLipin already has vitamin E, so it may kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
     
  45. It wasn't you. It was @Jonoh and you replied to his comment, but you didn't say anything about him stating that MB and red light cause DNA damage to the esophagus.
     
  46. Well, I would like to see where he got that from. It is suspicious that it was only to the esophagus, it should have been systemic if it was indeed methylene blue causing this.
     
  47. Hey Haidut...do you know if MB or Mitolipin can exacerbate hairloss/mpb in anyway? Thx.
     
  48. Never heard of that happening and if anything they should he helping.
     
  49. Haidut do you see any positives or negatives to combining mitolipin and estroban when applying topically? Is there enough vitamin E in Mitolipin to effect the K in estroban for example? or would the mitolipin improve the topical absorption of estroban to any significant degree?
    Thanks
     
  50. @Bulletproof? @haidut Oh sorry for not clearing that up properly, the study I read, was about Barrett's osopheagus and the damage was done by a chromoendoscopy. It was found that photo excitation of the methylene blue caused most of the DNA damage, and that taking away the red (and white) light mitigated most of, or all of the damage. I'm not a scientist or anything lol I just came across it when I was looking for red light/methylene blue interactions and I have a problematic throat so it stuck out to me lol. I don't know if using methylene blue topically then using red light could be harmful or not to healthy cells to be honest and there are plenty of studies backing up positive interactions between the two aswell
     
  51. Just received my first bottle. It suggests 40 drops, but as the consistency is syrupy, it doesn't come out in drops. I went online and found that 100 drops of oil is approx a teaspoon so is it correct that just under a half teaspoon is the suggested dosage?
     
  52. Yes, that is about right. The 40 drops is about 2ml and a teaspoon is usually 5ml.
     
  53. Dang was my question really that bad?
     
  54. [​IMG]
     
  55. How are you guys taking yours? Did all 40 drops transdermally today, but may do 20 on the skin and 20 in capsule next time. It's hard enough with 40 drops of Energin and estroban and the others. I'm running out of skin to put stuff on haha.
     
  56. I drink mine.
     
  57. Drink with what? @haidut doesn't recommend to drink it with water. I wonder if OJ would be the same as water?
     
  58. Did anyone put it on their face? I did without really giving it a second thought, patted it around the eye area some too, but now I wonder if it's safe if it gets in your eye?
     
  59. I put the "syrup" on a spoon and drink up.
     
  60. Took my first dose of Mitolipin today. After about an hour I had a wonderful feeling of happiness/well being/calmness.
     
  61. @haidut How many IUs of vitamin E are in each serving?
     
  62. Very interesting . Keep us posted please on how long this feeling lasted and if it stayed with you or dissipated after awhile.
     
  63. Felt that way for 6-7 hours until I went to bed. Had the best night of sleep in awhile as well.
     
  64. @haidut Another amazing product Haidut! I just ordered two bottles of this. One for me and the other for a relative. Unfortunately, said relative gave me the wrong delivery address :banghead:. Is it possible to fix this and change the delivery address? I sent you an email with the details. Very sorry for the disorganization.

    On a question with regards to the product. Do you feel this will be helpful for someone going through addiction and withdrawal? My thought is that this will help to lower the negative effects of PUFA and that will in turn lower the stress hormones that cause the addiction and withdrawal in the first place; serotonin, cortisol, estrogen etc.

    Also, from the studies you posted, it looks to me like this could be a very good supplement for those suffering from neurodegenerative diseases.
     
  65. Still feel it today. Had the best night of sleep in awhile. Feel like I'm inside a bubble of peace and joy. Hope I don't get everyone's hopes up to an unrealistic level but I can't deny what I'm experiencing on one dose so far.
     
  66. Hey just a tip for people who use some of idealabs products with a high dropper count per dose( energin, mitolipin). I find these dropper bottles to be helpful you get six for $13 so not that bad and the graduations on the dropper are helpful. Also somewhat uv protected. I find it a lot easer to take two droppers then 40 drops and if I want to take it at work I won't draw as much attention. I would have like 20 guys counting out the drops and bumping into me and stuff if I had to count out 24 or 40 drops of something everyday not to mention never hear the end of it. I already get s**t (good natured) for trying to be healthy best not to make it a spectacle.
     
  67. Had you ever taken vitamin E before?
     
  68. I am back from my wonderful trip to Italy and I see this wonderful supplement :)

    haidut, do you think people who have done very low carb high protein/fat for a year and lost quite a lot of weight would benefit from this supplement? Maybe the PUFA in the tissues have been released and they have poisoned my mitochondria.
     
  69. @haidut, I have to share what this supplement has done for me. Don't know if you've been following me and my issues, but, in a nutshell, everything went haywire exactly one year ago. Since then I have had sudden, unexplained very high blood sugar, high pulse rate, unintentional weight loss and muscle wasting. (Hello cortisol and adrenaline!) I have tried everything in the book. Been healthy as a horse my whole life before this. I wake up at least 4 or 5 times each night, the first couple of times to urinate (because I'm SO thirsty all the time, and drink a lot of water in the evenings. I just can't help it) The other times, more in the early morning hours, I am ALWAYS awoken by severe leg cramps. Literally every night/early morning, for a year now. I'm still trying to get to the root cause of all this (just yesterday I had an abscessed tooth pulled which I'm suspecting may have played a part. It started giving me trouble a year ago). But in the meantime, I thought I'd try this. I rub 20 drops into each lower leg/foot at night before bed. Well, I still wake up to urinate, but NO LONGER HAVE THE LEG CRAMPS ! ! ! I received it 5 days ago, and have applied it every night for the last 4 nights, to make sure it wasn't just a fluke. It has kept the leg cramps away every night. Did I mention I have been awoken by these cramps every night, without fail, for the past year?! As far as I'm concerned, it is magic in a bottle. I can't thank you enough for making this available.

    One other note: when I used to get up to pee, I would stay very groggy and could easily get back to sleep. I'd just go pee, find my way back to bed, and usually fall right back asleep. But these last 4 nights, it's much harder for me to get back to sleep. It's like I'm just not as groggy, my mind is suddenly wide awake. Maybe this is just a temporary thing, I don't know. But I'll still take that over the leg cramps any day! The cramps were very severe -- wherever the cramp was, that muscle would stay sore for a few days.

    Thank you again!
     
  70. @artemis, that's fantastic! So happy to hear you got relief of the leg cramps, this is wonderful. :dancenanner:carrot
     
  71. I'm considering it for the same reason. I've made a lot of progress but there's still some lingering metabolic suppression from the VLC/ketogenic phase I lived in for too long that I'm eager to repair.
    Congratulations @artemis.
     
  72. for a person exercising how much taurine and e has been studied as far a dosage and what is the timing of the dose? before during after exercise? thx
     
  73. I've used this four nights now.

    The first time I applied it, I felt that sensation of breathing easier that I get with initial doses of some other things like Ceylon Cinnamon, high dose Biotin, baking soda, etc. It's like a tiny flow of cooled oxygen right in my nostrils that makes breathing easy. Not sure what that signifies.

    I don't notice the effect now.

    I also have an increase in appetite, but not sure if that's the MitoLipin or just hormonal stuff.

    Also wanted to post Haidut's reply to my concerns about other supplements and getting it in/around the eye:

    The only thing I would drop is the vitamin E you are taking. MitoLipin is a dissolved in a decent amount of tocopherols, just like Peat's Progest-E, and you probably do not need to take additional vitamin E if you are taking MitoLipin. Also, don't think getting it in your eye is a problem either, except potentialy vitamin E causing some irritation. The phocphatidylcholine itself should be rather beneficial and it is used for cataracts in some countries.
     
  74. Thanks for posting that @Peata. I ordered some today and I was thinking about using it on my face so your post was helpful.
     
  75. How much vitamin E is in a 40 drop dose of Mitolipin?
     
  76. I really like it on my skin. I've used it all over. It has the slightest fishy smell/taste (depending if you're putting it on skin or in mouth) but I barely noticed it and it goes away fast. But I do love the mct oil and tocopherols on the skin.
     
  77. Great, thanks. I'm excited to try it out!
     
  78. I tried this combo yesterday while I await my order of mitolipin to arrive and I have to say it felt really good. Blissful but in a very relaxed sort of way. It's hard to describe but it felt like my heart was expanding. Despite a ton of stress selling my house and a recent car accident I feel better today than I have in a long time. I'm not really sure how you do it haidut but your contributions here are appreciated more than I can express with mere words. Thanks for your tireless and selfless dedication to helping everyone here.
     
  79. No, it wasn't. It is a valid concern and would depend on how long and when you take both of them. If you take more than 1 dose MitoLipin concurrently with EstroBan you may get vitamin K depletion effects so I would watch out for nose bleeds and such. Haven't heard anybody complain of that yet but it is something to keep in mind. In terms of effects though, MitoLipin and EstroBan are definitely synergistic. In fact, I think the PC may help get some of the vitamin K into the cells more efficiently given how lipophilic it is.
     
  80. If I break the rules of Peat-lord and eat a slice of bread, I put my Mitolipin drops on the bread and let them soak and then eat the slice. I also put them in my soup and mashed potatoes.
     
  81. Thanks Blossom!
     
  82. Too late.

    I believe my k stores are now at zero and I nearly bled out at work today. They want to fire me for taking too much aspirin (drug free work place) I told them it's the mitolipin but had no way to prove it....

    Also the estroban /mitolipin combo was so effective at banning estrogen it destroyed my libido and now my wife thinks I'm not attracted to her and thinks I am cheating. My knees are killing me and making grinding noises?

    Thanks ;)
     
  83. Actually I've been liking it. It has been giving me some warmth all over and maybe a little pain relief / lower inflammation in areas of application. I want to test it for times when I can't eat or drink and have to keep moving at work to mitigate the damage of burning most likely pufa stores. I will try the estro/mito combo as the mito actually feels good on the skin and estroban is kinda sticky so maybe it will help with that.

    Genuinely thank you for all the hard work.
     
  84. This is usually one of my main goals, all other metabolic aspects considered. I usually find this is the case on sunny days when stress is low, temps are pushing 99+, and sometimes right after dosing T3 for about 15 minutes. I also find it is usually accompanied by absolutely no tension in the face or neck, great ease at holding my gaze on something, and very good sense of well being.

    I think it means you're doing it right :D
     
  85. @haidut

    Is it useful to think of mitolipin and the effects it may have on mitochondrial energy production as a precursor to even thyroid health in the grand scheme of troubleshooting peatian energy problems in the body? In other words, can it maybe make one successful with thyroid supplementation or possibly newly sensitive to existing blood levels already in the body, due to a fix upstream?

    Also, have you noticed or heard of improved light therapy results after mitolipin supplementation?

    Thanks, will have to give this one a try.
     
  86. Have you tried dissolving steroids in MitoLipin/phosphatidylchloline?
    Could it work for transdermal steroid delivery, do you think?
     
  87. Just for anyone who wants to know more experiences of using. So today was my second day using mitolipin. The first day of use I both topically applied some over my stomach and swallowed some. I did experience a good feeling, more energy, and I was really hungry all day. Mentally it seemed to have some effect too. I felt more present than usual. This might seem weird, but I also noticed that I found things funnier than usual. I don't really laugh hard at much anymore, and I've had a similar effect using marijuana before but I had some real belly laughter again which was nice. This was juxtaposed by an extra nervousness at the prospect of certain things though. I dunno maybe I'm looking too far into it but that's what happened lol. After I went to sleep, I woke up at about 6am and I was starving (this has happened before quite a bit so I don't know if it was the supplement), so I went downstairs and had a bite to eat. Back in bed I started getting really hot (hot flash? maybe mitochondrial uncoupling?) And then really sharp pains in my stomach. I've experienced these pains very often before, they were one of the first symptoms I had when I first got ill, I'd have them pretty much everyday but they've lessened in frequency over the past few years to rarely. Anyway I ended up falling back asleep. After waking I felt the need to stretch more than usual. After using the second dose just topically, I again felt pretty good, more energy than usual, I'd say I've felt warmer than usual too (cold limbs everyday usually and although I still had it at points throughout the day I felt warmer overall). Well the stomach pains came back at some point with less intensity and you can guess the rest. No stomach pain since. So yeah so far I'd say this has seemed to have more effect than anything else I've tried to date, which could mean PUFA storage is a big problem for me or something I dunno
     
  88. @haidut

    I'm curious, is MitoLipin (and any of your other supplements too) susceptible to damage from X-rays? I travel out of state and back 3-4 times a month on average, so of course my bag of liquids gets scanned through an X-ray machine 6-8 times per month. I was wondering if this is a major problem or not. I haven't bought any of your supplements before because of the high cost, but I find myself intrigued by MitoLipin and the possibility of repairing my mitochondria. I'm tempted to try this one.
     
  89. @haidut is there any upper limit on how much of this one should use in a day? Each dose has 200ml of phosphatidylcholine, so can one use 2 or 3 doses for increased effect? Or is it a waste to take that much?
     
  90. @haidut I'm looking forward to trying this one. I have "Crohn's disease" and gallstones. Hopefully the regular 40 drops/day will be enough to make a difference in this. The studies that I looked at used larger doses with an enteric-release formula, but maybe the saturated form will be more effective. I'm still willing to give it a try just because I tried PC once and the feeling was amazing. So blissful with nootropic effects.

    @Jonoh your symptoms seem reminiscent of high and low serotonin. Maybe it is having an effect on estrogen?
     
  91. Since I don't have access to pure vitamin E, I am considering this supplement also for vitamin E. I saw some people asked about the amount of vitamin E in 1 dose of this supplement, but I didn't see a specific number in IU. Anybody knows?
     
  92. I'm fascinated by this! I started my diet adventures maybe 6 years ago with basically chugging PUFA oils, then went to paleo and low carb. So, ugh.

    Anyway, I think that Time Of Stupidity created a PUFA context that will take many more years to undo, and at 60 years old I wouldn't mind accelerating this a wee bit.

    @haidut, Questions:
    1. Are there important cofactors, other than the usual Peaty foods/supps? I've recently discovered the issue of creating a deficiency by taking too much of a good thing and would prefer to avoid that here.
    2. Why is dinner time suggested - is there a reason to NOT suggest morning?
    3. If I chose oral would it make sense to include other fatty food/coconut oil?
    4. I like the bread idea - maybe blending with butter to make a tasty spread would be useful?
    5. Also I'm curious about the question above: is high dosing a waste?
    Update: my first experiment - Mitolipin squirted on a small slab of fresh farmer's cheese:

    image.jpeg
     
  93. I wanted to sign up just to share my experiences with Haiduts supps.

    First of all I really want to thank Haidut for making topical supplements without any fillers. I have found that almost any oral supplement does not work for me so using things topically is great.

    Quick background, I suffer from a form of arthritic condition that attacks the lower back and sternum mostly, it's also connected to gut issues, maybe chrones or similar and leaky gut. It's been getting out of control the last few years where I'm unable to work out or run or even sleep comfortably. As a 28yo male, this really sucks. Eliminating fiber and starch had done a lot for this condition but it was not enough.

    I have been taking a combination of mitolipon, estroban, k2 and pansterone for just over a week now, I split it up in a morning and night dose of 20 drops, 3 drops, 3 drops, 3 drops. I put it over a big area of the body, usually chest, stomach, lower back and legs.

    This combinaton had been nothing short of amazing for my inflammation and digestion. Almost immediately I felt some relief in the amount of inflammation in my chest and back and after a week I have almost zero sternum pain and very minamal back pain even after some exercise I did! My digestive upset has also almost disappeared. Lastly I have lost fat in all the places I have put it on which is pretty interesting. I also feel calmer and have reduced stress which could also be from the lack of pain.

    Thanks Haidut for the truly awesome supplements! I look forward to trying others when I get more $.

    Edit: I wanted mention that 40 drops orally made me the most tired I have ever been in my life. I like it topically much better.
     
  94. Doesn't the Kuinone stain your body a yellow color? It stained me and my entire family for the entire day when we put Kuinone on topically.
     
  95. Yes it does stain my body slightly yellow. I put it on under my clothes so it's no big deal and the vit e and MCTS have actually made my skin really nice too. You can either wash it off after an hour or it seems like the alcohol from solban takes it off nicely as well.
     
  96. @haidut I have communicated with you before about my autoimmune hepatitis. I am currently taking:
    Energin 40 drops
    Kuinone 2 drops
    Niacinamide 100 x 2
    Taurine 500 x 3
    Unique e 400 iu every other day
    Retinal 5 drops
    Lapodin 12 drops
    Estroban 8 drops
    Progest-e 10 mg x 3
    PanSterone 8 drops morning and Eve
    StressNon 24 drops eve
    Progestene 24 drops eve
    Aspirin 650 mg at night
    NP Thyroid by Acella 90 mg
    Coffee 2 cups

    I am off of the Prednisone, yay, and will continue forward with no medication. My liver enzymes are back to normal from the 500 range. I am thinking of adding MitoLipin to my regimen. Can you please comment whether this will help along with the other things I am taking? I am concerned about the liver fibrosis and inflammation. I know that it's important to keep the inflammation down to keep the fibrosis from getting worse. Why do the doctors want to suppress your immune system? Does the inflammatory process continue once it's started? Is there anything I'm taking that I don't need? Are my dosages correct for my condition? You've been a big help to me so far but I still feel lost.
     
  97. in an email, haidut told me a single dose (40 drops) has 600 IU vitamin E.

    So if I remember correctly from Peat, topical application of fat soluble vitamins gives about 20% of the IU's.. this is 120 IU of vitamin E per a single dose if applied topically. But maybe the special fats in this supplement increases the absorption?
     
  98. Holy crap that is a lot of Vitamin E...no wonder I am getting some progesterone like symptoms from this
     
  99. Oh ***t! I've been taking up to 2 doses a day, so I'm getting 1200IUs of E? Whoa nelly.