Milk Tongue

[Ableton]

Do you suspect it's some kind of bacterial or fungal overgrowth in your case as well? And that the milk is somehow supporting or promoting the growth of the bacteria?

I have no idea. I suppose a coated tongue is always associated with that. So is endotoxin in general, it's basically the whole concept.
Try antibiotics then with milk, at least something like ginger.
I personally dislike the concept of trying everything to make a certain food work. I dislike foods that seem to have a large effect on my endocrine system, and I do not want to arrange the foods in the way where they work together. I tend to do better if I avoid these foods altogether...
Another example for this would be heated fats for example
I avoid foods if they give me a coated tongue, make me sweat, make me stink, give me gas. Simple as that

 

[metabolizm]

But how does one improve digestion?
Penicillin?

I think the solution is different for everyone.
What digestive problems are you experiencing?
What do you eat?

 

[metabolizm]

Thank you all for your contributions.

I think the white tongue is an indication of a bacterial or fungal overgrowth, probably originating in my colon, and probably as a result of poor digestion and bad dietary choices over the years. I'm not sure why exactly milk seems to make the symptoms worse, but it does, so I'll have to stop that for now. It seems to somehow support or promote the bacteria or fungi that are causing the white tongue and the dandruff. It really does look like a case of "it's not the milk, it's you".

I'm not going to do anything to drastic just now. My focus will be on improving digestion. The tricky thing is that because of my impaired digestion, many foods are not tolerable (like milk and wheat and fibre). Wheat is the worst offender for me - it's far too constipating. So I'm at risk of a severe calorie deficit, but I'll continue to eat fatty meats, butter, white rice, and eggs, and OJ, and some potatoes maybe, and coffee - so it's not all bad. A bit restrictive, but sometimes that's called for.

Thanks again.

 

[TheSir]

Thank you all for your contributions.

I think the white tongue is an indication of a bacterial or fungal overgrowth, probably originating in my colon, and probably as a result of poor digestion and bad dietary choices over the years. I'm not sure why exactly milk seems to make the symptoms worse, but it does, so I'll have to stop that for now. It seems to somehow support or promote the bacteria or fungi that are causing the white tongue and the dandruff. It really does look like a case of "it's not the milk, it's you".

I'm not going to do anything to drastic just now. My focus will be on improving digestion. The tricky thing is that because of my impaired digestion, many foods are not tolerable (like milk and wheat and fibre). Wheat is the worst offender for me - it's far too constipating. So I'm at risk of a severe calorie deficit, but I'll continue to eat fatty meats, butter, white rice, and eggs, and OJ, and some potatoes maybe, and coffee - so it's not all bad. A bit restrictive, but sometimes that's called for.

Thanks again.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, go buy some potato starch and supplement with >200 grams on top of your regular diet, spread evenly throughout the day. Do this for a few days and see how your digestion improves. Me and @Twohandsondeck are currently having amazing experiences with this protocol.

 

[RealNeat]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, go buy some potato starch and supplement with >200 grams on top of your regular diet, spread evenly throughout the day. Do this for a few days and see how your digestion improves. Me and @Twohandsondeck are currently having amazing experiences with this protocol.

is persorption of starch particles not a worry for you? Seems to be better ways of taking care of this like spore based biotics rather than messing with arterial function.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, go buy some potato starch and supplement with >200 grams on top of your regular diet, spread evenly throughout the day. Do this for a few days and see how your digestion improves. Me and @Twohandsondeck are currently having amazing experiences with this protocol.

Agreed.

Though do tread lightly. If for some reason the long-digesting sugar goes to the wrong place (i.e. is stolen by the upper intestine) you'll know right away with even a small dose... Otherwise if it doesn't upset you then you'd likely do well to experiment with several tablespoons a day for at least 1 day.

 

[TheSir]

is persorption of starch particles not a worry for you? Seems to be better ways of taking care of this like spore based biotics rather than messing with arterial function.

Can you elaborate?

Adding new biotics to the mix is pointless if you are not feeding the bacteria. You likely already have all the required strains of bacteria in your colon. The problem is that they are underfed, thus unable to dominate the colon and subjugate the harmful bacteria.

 

[RealNeat]

Can you elaborate?

Adding new biotics to the mix is pointless if you are not feeding the bacteria. You likely already have all the required strains of bacteria in your colon. The problem is that they are underfed, thus unable to dominate the colon and subjugate the harmful bacteria.

Starch particles get absorbed into the bloodstream, Sporebiotic has transient bacteria that give the beneficial bacteria a leg up to outnumber the (endotoxin causing) others, but still this isn't addressing a root cause. Why would they be underfed. The problems "cause" is not underfed bacteria. A low metabolism is much more likely, low stomach acid and too much starch are much more common. Have you heard Ray mention the infection in the cows utter being eliminated with supporting metabolism? Then afterwards the bacterial count actually increased but the symptoms of infection went away. Resistant and even worse RAW starch seems like one of the most dangerous ways to "resolve" this.

 

[RealNeat]

Can you elaborate?

Adding new biotics to the mix is pointless if you are not feeding the bacteria. You likely already have all the required strains of bacteria in your colon. The problem is that they are underfed, thus unable to dominate the colon and subjugate the harmful bacteria.

And @Twohandsondeck "Yeah, he was, he rediscovered work that had been done seventy or eighty years earlier [2] and called persorption of particles, and it refers to the fact that even though ordinary digestion theory says that even proteins are broken down in the intestine and absorbed as small molecules particles, amino acids, he and his predecessors showed that if you feed starch consisting of the naturally formed starch grains which can range from half the diameter of the red blood cell to ten times the diameter of the red blood cell, in other words much too big to even pass through the smallest arterioles, definitely a lot of them will plug up capillaries many of them will block arterioles, he demonstrated both with people and with mice that feeding starch, like a cup of a slurry, corn starch for example, and then drawing blood fifteen minutes later he could find the type of starch particle that they'd drunk in the bloodstream, and then fifteen minutes later he'd start finding it in the other body compartments, it would show up in the urine passing through the kidney barrier and ultimately he found it in the cerebrospinal fluid and every compartment in the body he would find these starch grains plugging arteries, in experimental animals he would slice them up at different stages, having been fed starch chronically, and he found that it caused mice to age prematurely and when he sliced them up, he found that every place where these starch grains lodged in an arteriole or capillary, the surrounding cells would be starved of nutrients and would die, so these animals it was like being having a shotgun working internally, killing little pockets of cells. And he was an immunologist, that was what got him interested in thinking about how your food can affect the immune system, if it's broken down into small particles before it gets in the body the immune system isn't going to see anything allergenic, but if these big particles get into the blood stream, they're gonna come in contact with all the parts of the immune system and so the simple fact that big particles are in the body means that our immune system is constantly being exposed to antigens and he demonstrated that circulatory damage was very clear, but as an immunologist he believed that those particles were contributing to diseases that corresponded to the type of antigen in the food." - RP

 

[TheSir]

Why would they be underfed.

Because, as I explained earlier, if you have SIBO the harmful putrefactive bacteria in the small intestine will slow transit time and so eat up all the sugar before it gets to feed the beneficial fermentative bacteria in the colon. Thus eating quickly digestible sugars will feed the SIBO and lower metabolism by 1) reducing the amount of nutritional value your digestive tract is able to extract and create from food, 2) forcing the body to constantly fight off the consequences of toxemia.

If you supply your colon with biotics but don't address the sibo, they are just going to die there.

An infection in an udder has little to do with the kind of situation that we are talking about here.

And @Twohandsondeck "Yeah, he was, he rediscovered work that had been done seventy or eighty years earlier [2] and called persorption of particles, and it refers to the fact that even though ordinary digestion theory says that even proteins are broken down in the intestine and absorbed as small molecules particles, amino acids, he and his predecessors showed that if you feed starch consisting of the naturally formed starch grains which can range from half the diameter of the red blood cell to ten times the diameter of the red blood cell, in other words much too big to even pass through the smallest arterioles, definitely a lot of them will plug up capillaries many of them will block arterioles, he demonstrated both with people and with mice that feeding starch, like a cup of a slurry, corn starch for example, and then drawing blood fifteen minutes later he could find the type of starch particle that they'd drunk in the bloodstream, and then fifteen minutes later he'd start finding it in the other body compartments, it would show up in the urine passing through the kidney barrier and ultimately he found it in the cerebrospinal fluid and every compartment in the body he would find these starch grains plugging arteries, in experimental animals he would slice them up at different stages, having been fed starch chronically, and he found that it caused mice to age prematurely and when he sliced them up, he found that every place where these starch grains lodged in an arteriole or capillary, the surrounding cells would be starved of nutrients and would die, so these animals it was like being having a shotgun working internally, killing little pockets of cells. And he was an immunologist, that was what got him interested in thinking about how your food can affect the immune system, if it's broken down into small particles before it gets in the body the immune system isn't going to see anything allergenic, but if these big particles get into the blood stream, they're gonna come in contact with all the parts of the immune system and so the simple fact that big particles are in the body means that our immune system is constantly being exposed to antigens and he demonstrated that circulatory damage was very clear, but as an immunologist he believed that those particles were contributing to diseases that corresponded to the type of antigen in the food." - RP

That does sound interesting and concerning. I don't know what to do with this information yet. I wonder how much of an effect a few days of supplementation can possibly have, even in the worst case.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

Resistant and even worse RAW starch seems like one of the most dangerous ways to "resolve" this.

It does seem like it, but you can't know until you know for yourself by experimentation.

Everywhere on this forum there are people who say that the solution to all problems are increasing the metabolism, but it's impossible to increase the metabolism if the very food someone is eating gives them an inflammatory response.

What's the point in milk, aspirin, coffee, methylene blue, and NDT if they all cause stress responses? Clearly these things do not resolve deep-seated issues for people or else you would read about success stories on every other page.

An alternative view is that the bacteria of the colon need to be in a proper stance in order to receive oral inputs effectively. Without this, everything but the most easily digestible (or sorely missing nutrients) will cause a person more grief.

After the colon is in working order, the Peat principles can actually come into proper effect.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

And @Twohandsondeck "Yeah, he was, he rediscovered work that had been done seventy or eighty years earlier [2] and called persorption of particles, and it refers to the fact that even though ordinary digestion theory says that even proteins are broken down in the intestine and absorbed as small molecules particles, amino acids, he and his predecessors showed that if you feed starch consisting of the naturally formed starch grains which can range from half the diameter of the red blood cell to ten times the diameter of the red blood cell, in other words much too big to even pass through the smallest arterioles, definitely a lot of them will plug up capillaries many of them will block arterioles, he demonstrated both with people and with mice that feeding starch, like a cup of a slurry, corn starch for example, and then drawing blood fifteen minutes later he could find the type of starch particle that they'd drunk in the bloodstream, and then fifteen minutes later he'd start finding it in the other body compartments, it would show up in the urine passing through the kidney barrier and ultimately he found it in the cerebrospinal fluid and every compartment in the body he would find these starch grains plugging arteries, in experimental animals he would slice them up at different stages, having been fed starch chronically, and he found that it caused mice to age prematurely and when he sliced them up, he found that every place where these starch grains lodged in an arteriole or capillary, the surrounding cells would be starved of nutrients and would die, so these animals it was like being having a shotgun working internally, killing little pockets of cells. And he was an immunologist, that was what got him interested in thinking about how your food can affect the immune system, if it's broken down into small particles before it gets in the body the immune system isn't going to see anything allergenic, but if these big particles get into the blood stream, they're gonna come in contact with all the parts of the immune system and so the simple fact that big particles are in the body means that our immune system is constantly being exposed to antigens and he demonstrated that circulatory damage was very clear, but as an immunologist he believed that those particles were contributing to diseases that corresponded to the type of antigen in the food." - RP

Ok. If I read this correctly, starch persorption is entirely based on mouse studies. This assumes that mice handle starch just like humans. I'll give the benefit of the doubt here and assume that this is a 1:1 comparison between mice and humans.

Even still, there are completely different starch properties to every kind of starch.

Beans do not digest like corn like corn doesn't digest like Masa harina like Masa harina doesn't digest like raw potato.... To cooked potato, to white rice, to brown rice, to bean sprouts, to green banana, on and on these all have different properties.

On paper we can classify starches as resistant 1, 2, and 3, but there are so many other factors which determine how we handle these foods from phytic acid to saponins to preparation method to lectins and whatever else.

All I'm left to stand on is a testimony that raw oatmeal, cooked oatmeal, cooked corn, cooked white rice, cooked brown rice, cooked potato (any color), bread in any form, and any legume cooked in any way have all resulted in a net negative health outcome for me [after having obliterated my colon with harsh herbal & acidic enemas].

YET raw isolated starch of potato (perhaps green banana is also worth a try) and lactose has done everything for me that every probiotic is marketed to do.

The starch persorption theory reminds me of the 'fructose causes non alcoholic fatty liver disease' fear mongering that goes on in the low carb communities. Everyone who's died at 70 probably had a lot of bread plugging up their arteries.

Maybe, MAYBE. But like @TheSir mentioned, what does anyone really have to lose with a few days of experimentation and <$10 to pick up a bag of pure, raw potato starch?

 

[Hgreen56]

ditch the milk, use casseine powder instead with some sucrose

Regular milk. I've suspected SIBO too, but don't know what to do about it.

You dont mention stomach issues so i guess you dont have any so its not SIBO.
if you have, probable lactose intolerance, take a lactase supplement with it and see what happens.

or ditch the milk, use casein powder instead with some sucrose.

 

[Hgreen56]

I
After the colon is in working order, the Peat principles can actually come into proper effect.

lactose increase thyroid.
when thyroid is function better, collon follows.

 

[TheSir]

Ok. If I read this correctly, starch persorption is entirely based on mouse studies. This assumes that mice handle starch just like humans. I'll give the benefit of the doubt here and assume that this is a 1:1 comparison between mice and humans.

Even still, there are completely different starch properties to every kind of starch.

Beans do not digest like corn like corn doesn't digest like Masa harina like Masa harina doesn't digest like raw potato.... To cooked potato, to white rice, to brown rice, to bean sprouts, to green banana, on and on these all have different properties.

On paper we can classify starches as resistant 1, 2, and 3, but there are so many other factors which determine how we handle these foods from phytic acid to saponins to preparation method to lectins and whatever else.

All I'm left to stand on is a testimony that raw oatmeal, cooked oatmeal, cooked corn, cooked white rice, cooked brown rice, cooked potato (any color), bread in any form, and any legume cooked in any way have all resulted in a net negative health outcome for me [after having obliterated my colon with harsh herbal & acidic enemas].

YET raw isolated starch of potato (perhaps green banana is also worth a try) and lactose has done everything for me that every probiotic is marketed to do.

The starch persorption theory reminds me of the 'fructose causes non alcoholic fatty liver disease' fear mongering that goes on in the low carb communities. Everyone who's died at 70 probably had a lot of bread plugging up their arteries.

Maybe, MAYBE. But like @TheSir mentioned, what does anyone really have to lose with a few days of experimentation and <$10 to pick up a bag of pure, raw potato starch?

This study by Volkheimer seems to be one of the more popular studies regarding persorption. Volkheimer fed rats, rabits, dogs and pigs 200g of raw starch at once (coincidentally similar amounts as what we are dealing with). Both potato and corn starch resulted in somewhat equal amount of persorption. Apparently long term use led to embolis in the smallest arteries, which persisted even long time after the experiment was done. If i'm understanding right, short term use led to temporary embolis only. I wonder if this means that spreading the strach throughout the day would result in less persorption than taking it all at once.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/3966746.pdf

 

[Peatful]

Ray recommends potato juice to heal and a protein soup to nourish iirc

Hopefully this will clear things up-

Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup (RPPPS)

Potato Protein Soup Cooking Rules

How Do You Make Potato Juice

 

[Hgreen56]

Ray recommends potato juice to heal and a protein soup to nourish iirc

Hopefully this will clear things up-

Ray Peat Potato Protein Soup (RPPPS)

Potato Protein Soup Cooking Rules

How Do You Make Potato Juice

why juice potatoes and not just eat them whole?

 

[RealNeat]

It does seem like it, but you can't know until you know for yourself by experimentation.

Everywhere on this forum there are people who say that the solution to all problems are increasing the metabolism, but it's impossible to increase the metabolism if the very food someone is eating gives them an inflammatory response.

What's the point in milk, aspirin, coffee, methylene blue, and NDT if they all cause stress responses? Clearly these things do not resolve deep-seated issues for people or else you would read about success stories on every other page.

An alternative view is that the bacteria of the colon need to be in a proper stance in order to receive oral inputs effectively. Without this, everything but the most easily digestible (or sorely missing nutrients) will cause a person more grief.

After the colon is in working order, the Peat principles can actually come into proper effect.

I see a lot of success stories from those compounds. Everyone is free to do whatever experiment they wish, I'm just warning that eating raw starch is not even ancestrally sound and there were/ are some weird practices that ancient cultures used for maladies or nutrition.

My stance is a warning for onlookers and that as great as experimentation is this is the Ray Peat forum, I personally write here because I think Ray has a very holistic and well rounded view of physiology. A lot of the reactions he mentions are tied together so that one knows what one input or output will do downstream.

so naturally I recommend (especially to those new to this forum) that they experiment with the things said by the man whom this forum is based on, then if those well vetted methods don't work go off in whatever direction you think success comes from, and if you wish report back. But even then short term benefit doesn't always equal long term health.

 

[Twohandsondeck]

This study by Volkheimer seems to be one of the more popular studies regarding persorption. Volkheimer fed rats, rabits, dogs and pigs 200g of raw starch at once (coincidentally similar amounts as what we are dealing with). Both potato and corn starch resulted in somewhat equal amount of persorption. Apparently long term use led to embolis in the smallest arteries, which persisted even long time after the experiment was done. If i'm understanding right, short term use led to temporary embolis only. I wonder if this means that spreading the strach throughout the day would result in less persorption than taking it all at once.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/3966746.pdf

Ah! Useful, nice share.

Some thoughts about the Volkheimer research:

-They administered 200g of starch to rats, rabbits, chickens, guinea pigs, and dogs.
200g of starch is 20 tablespoons of raw potato starch that was administered to rats, rabbits, chickens, guinea pigs, and dogs.

I don't know what the human equivalent of that would be, but damn... good luck stomaching that all at once, even if you wanted to match that dosage in one meal. That's nauseating to think about.

-"An important role is played by the quantity of
particles supplied and by the muscular activity
of the intestine."

-"There were significant differences in this series of experiments, however, depending on whether 100,
200, or 300 g of the starch was consumed (Figs. 7a.)."

- "Under the influence of cigarette smoking, the rate of persorption is clearly increased. (Fig. 7b)."

- "When coffee was ingested at the same time, the number of persorbed granules was significantly higher; this was not observed after administration of so called caffein-free coffee. Higher rates of persorption were also observed on injecting caffeine..."

- It's eliminated via bile, urine, and mother's milk and is handled by the lymphatic system.

- More physical activity decreased the peak persorption (lends itself to the lymphatic system again).

- On average, starch granule presence in the blood would reach baseline again after 4 hours (240 minutes) regardless of what starch was administered.

*The only alarming discovery that I take from this research was the fact that it was found in the cerebrospinal fluid:

"The passage of orally administered particles into the cerebrospinal fluid was observed in both animals and in human subjects."

Yes, the research notes that there was still starch present "a long time later," but with intense surrounding circumstances:

"Deposition of embolized starch granules and of other persorbed particles in the lumen of the smallest vessels was observed in animals after long-term oral administration. In pigs, dogs, chickens, and rats fed with particles, we found individual particles as microemboli in the lumen of the smallest vessels a long time later."

So... When pigs, dogs, chickens, and rats are given "long-term oral administration" of 20 tablespoons of raw starch all-at-once, there is a greater potential that those microemboli end up in the "smallest vessels a long time later."

In essence, being younger, healthier, awake, and not under the influence of potentially inflammatory compounds (caffeine) and certainly not inflammatory ones (cigarettes) all attribute to a more robust lymphatic system which returns blood levels of starch circulation back to normal after 4 hours... In mostly small critters who were given mega-doses of starch.

I'm just warning

My stance is a warning for onlookers

Ok noted. Thank you.

 

[metabolizm]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, go buy some potato starch and supplement with >200 grams on top of your regular diet, spread evenly throughout the day. Do this for a few days and see how your digestion improves. Me and @Twohandsondeck are currently having amazing experiences with this protocol.

Thanks, I will keep it up my sleeve as an option if nothing else works.