Milk and Fruit only

[Jennifer]

Aww…@Tilly-J. It saddens me that you disappeared from the forum because you felt there was tension in your thread and worse, that you felt responsible for it. You weren’t responsible, you were just seeking help. I’m sorry if my posts added to the tension you felt, but I thought it really important to speak up when I thought some of the advice being given was potentially harmful, not just to you but to anyone struggling with something similar who may come across your thread. I know it can be uncomfortable when people disagree, but I think it would be far worse if we all agreed just to keep the peace, and I hope you don’t let it stop you from participating in the future if you otherwise enjoy the forum. :)

I’m truly happy to hear you’re recovering and have been providing your body with much more energy. You deserve it. :) I wish you were currently seeing the physical results of all your effort, but I do know it’s possible to reverse the damage. I’m certainly no expert in ED recovery, but I do have experience with disordered eating and restricted diets, grew up having it modeled to me, saw it destroy my body and ultimately contribute to my mum’s death. This is actually one of the things I’ve journaled about since my mum’s passing and I included it in my next log update, along with my dietary shift, but I’ve been debating for a month now whether or not to post it. Anyhow, to answer your questions…

I do still eat lots of raw dairy—roughly 3 L of milk, some in the form of homemade ice cream and custard, and cheese—and smaller amounts of fruit—roughly 3 to 4 cups daily—and yes, I still take thyroid, though, I’ve been able to drop my dose since increasing my fat and protein intake. Thyroid stopped the daily convulsions and syncope episodes that had me in and out of the hospital for 6 months but also, it has kept my previously elevated alkaline phosphatase level, which was coming from my bones, in range. Just for future reference, if you ever want to see what I’m consuming, I keep an updated list, as well as a sample day of eating, on my profile page, but here’s my current diet:

PROTEINS (25%): Pastured raw A2 dairy (cow and goat), pastured eggs

FATS (35%): Dairy fat, egg yolks, cocoa butter

CARBS (40%): Cherries (fresh and dehydrated), grapes (green seedless, gum drop, pink muscat), melon (canary, honeydew, snowball), peaches (both fresh and dehydrated—white), wild berries (both fresh and dehydrated—black raspberries, blueberries, golden raspberries, marionberries, mulberries, red raspberries, strawberries), raw milk, homemade natural soda, filtered honey (gallberry, orange blossom, tupelo, wild blueberry, wildflower, wild raspberry), apple sugar, agave

HERBS & SEASONINGS: Chamomile, cinnamon (Ceylon, Vietnamese), dill, ginger, kosher salt, lemongrass, mint (peppermint, spearmint, wild mint), orange peels, osmanthus, vanilla beans (Madagascan, Tahitian)

SUPPLEMENTS: NDT (TyroMax), Vitamin D3 (ELEA brand)

A TYPICAL DAY OF EATING

BREAKFAST: A black raspberry shake, a cheese omelette, and sweetened peach osmanthus tisane

SNACK: Homemade ice cream (blueberries & cream, strawberries & cream or peaches & cream)

LUNCH: 1 L of milk, fresh mozzarella with a serving of mulberries, and sweetened cherry peppermint tisane

SNACK: White chocolate covered blueberries or homemade cinnamon custard and a natural soda

DINNER: 1 L of milk, a slice of quiche, homemade melon sherbet, and sweetened orange chamomile tisane

I hope this helps. :)

 

[-Luke-]

[...]This is actually one of the things I’ve journaled about since my mum’s passing and I included it in my next log update, along with my dietary shift, but I’ve been debating for a month now whether or not to post it. [...]

I would like to read that and I'm sure many other would like that as well.

 

[Tilly-J]

Aww…@Tilly-J. It saddens me that you disappeared from the forum because you felt there was tension in your thread and worse, that you felt responsible for it. You weren’t responsible, you were just seeking help. I’m sorry if my posts added to the tension you felt, but I thought it really important to speak up when I thought some of the advice being given was potentially harmful, not just to you but to anyone struggling with something similar who may come across your thread. I know it can be uncomfortable when people disagree, but I think it would be far worse if we all agreed just to keep the peace, and I hope you don’t let it stop you from participating in the future if you otherwise enjoy the forum. :)

I’m truly happy to hear you’re recovering and have been providing your body with much more energy. You deserve it. :) I wish you were currently seeing the physical results of all your effort, but I do know it’s possible to reverse the damage. I’m certainly no expert in ED recovery, but I do have experience with disordered eating and restricted diets, grew up having it modeled to me, saw it destroy my body and ultimately contribute to my mum’s death. This is actually one of the things I’ve journaled about since my mum’s passing and I included it in my next log update, along with my dietary shift, but I’ve been debating for a month now whether or not to post it. Anyhow, to answer your questions…

I do still eat lots of raw dairy—roughly 3 L of milk, some in the form of homemade ice cream and custard, and cheese—and smaller amounts of fruit—roughly 3 to 4 cups daily—and yes, I still take thyroid, though, I’ve been able to drop my dose since increasing my fat and protein intake. Thyroid stopped the daily convulsions and syncope episodes that had me in and out of the hospital for 6 months but also, it has kept my previously elevated alkaline phosphatase level, which was coming from my bones, in range. Just for future reference, if you ever want to see what I’m consuming, I keep an updated list, as well as a sample day of eating, on my profile page, but here’s my current diet:

PROTEINS (25%): Pastured raw A2 dairy (cow and goat), pastured eggs

FATS (35%): Dairy fat, egg yolks, cocoa butter

CARBS (40%): Cherries (fresh and dehydrated), grapes (green seedless, gum drop, pink muscat), melon (canary, honeydew, snowball), peaches (both fresh and dehydrated—white), wild berries (both fresh and dehydrated—black raspberries, blueberries, golden raspberries, marionberries, mulberries, red raspberries, strawberries), raw milk, homemade natural soda, filtered honey (gallberry, orange blossom, tupelo, wild blueberry, wildflower, wild raspberry), apple sugar, agave

HERBS & SEASONINGS: Chamomile, cinnamon (Ceylon, Vietnamese), dill, ginger, kosher salt, lemongrass, mint (peppermint, spearmint, wild mint), orange peels, osmanthus, vanilla beans (Madagascan, Tahitian)

SUPPLEMENTS: NDT (TyroMax), Vitamin D3 (ELEA brand)

A TYPICAL DAY OF EATING

BREAKFAST: A black raspberry shake, a cheese omelette, and sweetened peach osmanthus tisane

SNACK: Homemade ice cream (blueberries & cream, strawberries & cream or peaches & cream)

LUNCH: 1 L of milk, fresh mozzarella with a serving of mulberries, and sweetened cherry peppermint tisane

SNACK: White chocolate covered blueberries or homemade cinnamon custard and a natural soda

DINNER: 1 L of milk, a slice of quiche, homemade melon sherbet, and sweetened orange chamomile tisane

I hope this helps. :)

Dear Jennifer,

Thank you for saying it just as it should be said. And I knew you were saying important things when you spoke out last time. I was truly grateful for what you said then. I must admit that I am often afraid to speak my mind - I mean always! And I am very not proud of that. It takes courage to speak up and out. Thank you for all those times you do so. I hope all is okay between us! And no, I intend to stay around here for there is so much help and support offered.

I was touched to hear you say that you have been writing in your journal about the harm you have experienced watching others model restrictive eating patterns. I am so sorry that you had to experience this and that your health suffered as a consequence. I so much hope that you will feel it is right to share some of this in the next phase of your log, as you are contemplating. I know for sure it will be helpful for people like me. I find it so powerfully motivating to read of the courage of others to overcome health adversity through diet and nutrition (i.e. the basics and the essentials), even though I feel sure you you have challenges to face most days.

Thank you for sharing so much here about you diet and supplements. I did not know that it was possible to see a sample day of your eating on your profile page or I would certainly not have bothered you personally. So interesting to hear how taking Tyromax has helped in various ways. I keep getting close to trying some thyroid support and then never doing so because I get afraid that I might make things worse not better. Even though I know my temps are a bit low, my pulse is low and my blood pressure is low/normal. Perhaps I should try to get my alkaline phosphatase measured to give an idea about bone resorption. I am completely in the dark as to what my bone status is now. But so hard to get my GP to take it all as seriously as I should like. I just leave the surgery with a reminder to keep doing my breathing exercises to lower my anxiety levels, when, in fact, knowing a few biological facts about how my body is working could do so much to reduce anxiety because then I could know where the real issues lie.

I am curious to know how you make a raspberry shake, your ice cream recipe and your quiche. I wonder if you have posted these elsewhere. And do you cover your blueberries in white chocolate yourself? Your diet seems so delicate - especially with the fragrances you choose - quite a work of culinary art.

Thank you again.

Tilly-J

 

[Jennifer]

Oh, okay, @-Luke- and @Tilly-J. Given the sensitive nature of the subject, I questioned if I should log about it so thank you for the confirmation. I’ll try getting it posted by the end of the week.

My pleasure, Tilly-J. I totally understand being afraid to speak up. I still struggle with doing so myself. And yes, of course, all is good between us. :) Thank you for your compassionate words. What was modeled to me was completely unintentional and I take full responsibility for my failing health. Food was one of my main outlets for my anxiety, and on the surface it appeared to be a healthy outlet but in hindsight, I can see now how it led to my illness.

Please don’t ever think you’re bothering me. I only mentioned my diet on my profile page in case, in the future, you’re ever curious what I’m consuming. I appreciate the compliment. That’s kind of you to say. :) I do cover (dried) blueberries in white chocolate, yes. My shakes are just raw milk, a couple scoops of homemade vanilla ice cream and a cup of frozen fruit. Below is the ice cream recipe I use, except I replace the white sugar with apple sugar:

The Master Ice Cream Recipe

This is the ice cream base I use for nearly all of my ice creams. Why? Let me count the ways. I love a creamy, thick ice cream. Because this

www.theyumblog.com

And in case you’re interested, I also came up with an ice cream recipe that can be made and ready to eat in 5 minutes using a blender or food processor, and posted about it here:

We All Scream For No Cream Ice Cream - In Minutes! (with photos)

@Rinse & rePeat, I tried the gelatin again using your exact recipe and found the cup of honey when blended with the fruit to be way too sweet but without that much honey, the TBSP of gelatin wasn’t enough to keep the milk from becoming hard so as much as I didn’t want to rely on extra cream for...

raypeatforum.com

And these are the quiche recipes I use, but with a couple of tweaks:

Classic French Spinach Quiche - Once Upon a Chef

TESTED & PERFECTED RECIPE – Made with heavy cream and Gruyère, this rich spinach quiche is classic French. Perfect for a special brunch!

www.onceuponachef.com

The Best Quiche Recipe

From the flaky pie crust, to the creamy egg filling, this recipe is not only easy to make, but downright delicious! Choose from optional fillings!

amindfullmom.com

I’m sorry your doctor isn’t taking it all seriously. I imagine your bone density has improved as your nutrition has improved, at least, it did for me. I had been following a high-carb, low-protein, fruit-based, vegan diet for 3 years when I fractured. My Z score at the time was -6.7. I switched to a diet similar to my diet now, averaging a daily intake of 4 liters of whole milk, mostly in the form of goat yogurt and raw cow’s milk, as well as raw cheese, eggs, homemade bone broth, veggies, and small amounts of meat—roughly 85 g, mainly scallops and crab—and I supplemented with high vitamin butter oil and cod liver oil for the extra fat soluble vitamins, and within a year, I had gained back all the muscle I had lost, my bone density improved by 50%, and the cartilage in my chest that tore a year prior and wouldn’t heal, had finally healed up. My caloric intake and activity level were the same with both diets so…

 

[Vileplume]

I switched to a diet similar to my diet now, averaging a daily intake of 4 liters of whole milk, mostly in the form of goat yogurt and raw cow’s milk, as well as raw cheese, eggs, homemade bone broth, veggies, and small amounts of meat—roughly 85 g, mainly scallops and crab—and I supplemented with high vitamin butter oil and cod liver oil for the extra fat soluble vitamins

Hey Jennifer! During this time of healing, did you consume any carbs outside of the milk? Like we talked about a while ago, I’m testing if white sugar might be a culprit for my brain fog and white tongue, so my diet has become pretty much only whole goat milk. It’s a high fat diet with just around 200g carbs, but it’s encouraging to hear of you healing with what appears to be similar macros.

 

[Jennifer]

Hey Jennifer! During this time of healing, did you consume any carbs outside of the milk? Like we talked about a while ago, I’m testing if white sugar might be a culprit for my brain fog and white tongue, so my diet has become pretty much only whole goat milk. It’s a high fat diet with just around 200g carbs, but it’s encouraging to hear of you healing with what appears to be similar macros.

Hi Tyler! Along with milk, my other main carb source was red peppers. Dr. Shanahan had me eating salad daily so I had red peppers, tomato, avocado and goat cheese with it. I averaged about 100 g of carbs daily and now average around 200 g. I’m not sure why but both times I went higher in fat, my insatiable sweet tooth disappeared. I find the majority of the things I ate while high-carb, low-fat to be sickeningly sweet now. I don’t know if this is a factor, but I haven’t had a hypoglycemic episode since changing my diet. I honestly can’t remember the last time I felt this healthy. I’m not even sure I ever have. How are you doing since cutting out the white sugar?

 

[Vileplume]

Hi Tyler! Along with milk, my other main carb source was red peppers. Dr. Shanahan had me eating salad daily so I had red peppers, tomato, avocado and goat cheese with it. I averaged about 100 g of carbs daily and now average around 200 g. I’m not sure why but both times I went higher in fat, my insatiable sweet tooth disappeared. I find the majority of the things I ate while high-carb, low-fat to be sickeningly sweet now. I don’t know if this is a factor, but I haven’t had a hypoglycemic episode since changing my diet. I honestly can’t remember the last time I felt this healthy. I’m not even sure I ever have. How are you doing since cutting out the white sugar?

That's so awesome to hear that you're doing well with 200g carbs and high fat. I think "feeling healthy" is the best indicator of things moving in the right direction. If babies do well with the macro ratios in milk as-is, why wouldn't we?

It's only been 2 days with the reduced sugar, but I'm not sure how it's worked out so far. I feel very calm, but also lack the motivation to do anything. I feel like my ambition has left me in the last 24 hours, and I don't like how that feels. Also, my white tongue has not improved yet (although it sometimes takes several days to improve, I think).

I still can't figure out the rhyme or reason as to why my white tongue vanishes sometimes for 2-3 days, then comes back when I kept everything consistent. I know there is a reason, but I've on the case for 1.5 years now and still can't determine it.

 

[Jennifer]

@Vileplume, that is perplexing. And you’re certain it’s not milk that’s causing the white coating? Are you currently taking in as many calories as you do when white sugar is part of your diet? Or…are you having cravings for sweet things and do you tolerate honey? I don't know if it's due to its antimicrobial properties, but I never experienced brain fog or a coated tongue with honey.

 

[aniciete]

That's so awesome to hear that you're doing well with 200g carbs and high fat. I think "feeling healthy" is the best indicator of things moving in the right direction. If babies do well with the macro ratios in milk as-is, why wouldn't we?

It's only been 2 days with the reduced sugar, but I'm not sure how it's worked out so far. I feel very calm, but also lack the motivation to do anything. I feel like my ambition has left me in the last 24 hours, and I don't like how that feels. Also, my white tongue has not improved yet (although it sometimes takes several days to improve, I think).

I still can't figure out the rhyme or reason as to why my white tongue vanishes sometimes for 2-3 days, then comes back when I kept everything consistent. I know there is a reason, but I've on the case for 1.5 years now and still can't determine it.

Do you do any particular activities or take any specific supplements when it gets better? To me it sounds like you have low histamine which could be responsible for food intolerances, low motivation and white tongue. Once I lowered dairy intake and increased meat/eggs, my tongue is completely clear and it feels as if the weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. A very high calcium intake will lower your histamine levels over time. Cypro would have a more drastic effect.

 

[Vileplume]

@Vileplume, that is perplexing. And you’re certain it’s not milk that’s causing the white coating? Are you currently taking in as many calories as you do when white sugar is part of your diet? Or…are you having cravings for sweet things and do you tolerate honey? I don't know if it's due to its antimicrobial properties, but I never experienced brain fog or a coated tongue with honey.

The milk could be playing a role, but I don't think it's the main determining factor because I also had a tongue coating when my diet had very little milk. It feels like the tongue coating sticks around no matter what I eat. It might be the fat though, as I saw a thread that @BigShoes posted mentioning that he gets a white tongue from too much saturated fat. I might try a low fat experiment if this low white-sugar one doesn't pan out.

I am not getting quite as many calories without the sugar, because I don't know what to replace them with. Pretty much every carb source causes some form of inflammation or reaction, I'm reluctant to add calories anywhere else since my fat and protein are both already high. Still, I think I'm getting enough calories--around 3000, from a bit of strawberries plus the milk.

Honey does improve the white tongue and also gives me deeper sleep, but it makes me incredibly bloated, so unfortunately I can't rely on it as a staple right now.

I appreciate you helping me brainstorm here.

Do you do any particular activities or take any specific supplements when it gets better? To me it sounds like you have low histamine which could be responsible for food intolerances, low motivation and white tongue. Once I lowered dairy intake and increased meat/eggs, my tongue is completely clear and it feels as if the weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. A very high calcium intake will lower your histamine levels over time. Cypro would have a more drastic effect.

I've tried a ton of supplements and haven't noticed any correlation with the tongue. However, most of them irritate my intestines. Right now, I take cynoplus only, and the white tongue still comes and goes regardless of my dose. I am reducing the cynoplus now though, so I'm keeping an eye out if that affects the tongue.

Last year, I consumed a low- and no-dairy diet with high meat, eggs, and fruit (starch does not digest well for me--I've tried nearly every form). But even with that diet, the white tongue was really bad. Even worse, on that diet I was getting waves of hot flashes every day combined with tachycardia. My heart rate was over 100 bpm sitting at my desk. When I switched from meat-based to milk-based in June 2021, the tachycardia and hot flashes instantly disappeared, so I do think the milk benefits me overall. Even on high milk, my white tongue improves sometimes for a few days. Cypro makes me very depressed but I don't notice a particular effect on the tongue.

What carb sources are you eating nowadays, with the meat and eggs?

 

[aniciete]

The milk could be playing a role, but I don't think it's the main determining factor because I also had a tongue coating when my diet had very little milk. It feels like the tongue coating sticks around no matter what I eat. It might be the fat though, as I saw a thread that @BigShoes posted mentioning that he gets a white tongue from too much saturated fat. I might try a low fat experiment if this low white-sugar one doesn't pan out.

I am not getting quite as many calories without the sugar, because I don't know what to replace them with. Pretty much every carb source causes some form of inflammation or reaction, I'm reluctant to add calories anywhere else since my fat and protein are both already high. Still, I think I'm getting enough calories--around 3000, from a bit of strawberries plus the milk.

Honey does improve the white tongue and also gives me deeper sleep, but it makes me incredibly bloated, so unfortunately I can't rely on it as a staple right now.

I appreciate you helping me brainstorm here.

I've tried a ton of supplements and haven't noticed any correlation with the tongue. However, most of them irritate my intestines. Right now, I take cynoplus only, and the white tongue still comes and goes regardless of my dose. I am reducing the cynoplus now though, so I'm keeping an eye out if that affects the tongue.

Last year, I consumed a low- and no-dairy diet with high meat, eggs, and fruit (starch does not digest well for me--I've tried nearly every form). But even with that diet, the white tongue was really bad. Even worse, on that diet I was getting waves of hot flashes every day combined with tachycardia. My heart rate was over 100 bpm sitting at my desk. When I switched from meat-based to milk-based in June 2021, the tachycardia and hot flashes instantly disappeared, so I do think the milk benefits me overall. Even on high milk, my white tongue improves sometimes for a few days. Cypro makes me very depressed but I don't notice a particular effect on the tongue.

What carb sources are you eating nowadays, with the meat and eggs?

Gotcha. I was just curious because certain things like vitamin c from too much juice ends up drying out my mouth which results in a white tongue. But eating a salt meal rich in zinc ends up making my mouth moist and clean. Also if I’m in a bad state, working out ends up drying out my mouth too much which also causes a coated looking tongue. So I think stomach acid and really chewing my food thoroughly most definitely plays a role in my case.

I’ve been experimenting with different starches but I find lower the fiber the better. Sushi rice or Jasmine rice seems to digest a lot better than basmati or other long grains. I was also consuming bobs red mill masa but I read around that it was contaminated with gluten so I switched over to a gluten free white masa from Amazon and it digests perfectly.

White Corn is unripe, mostly sugar, so white Masa Harina is safe

I saw this and it seems to be true in my case digestion wise.

 

[Vileplume]

Gotcha. I was just curious because certain things like vitamin c from too much juice ends up drying out my mouth which results in a white tongue. But eating a salt meal rich in zinc ends up making my mouth moist and clean. Also if I’m in a bad state, working out ends up drying out my mouth too much which also causes a coated looking tongue. So I think stomach acid and really chewing my food thoroughly most definitely plays a role in my case.

I’ve been experimenting with different starches but I find lower the fiber the better. Sushi rice or Jasmine rice seems to digest a lot better than basmati or other long grains. I was also consuming bobs red mill masa but I read around that it was contaminated with gluten so I switched over to a gluten free white masa from Amazon and it digests perfectly.

I saw this and it seems to be true in my case digestion wise.

These are great insights to consider. Thanks for sharing them. The dry mouth thing—rather than sibo—is an interesting angle. Have you gone long stretches without working out (at least intensely) to heal at times? I’m always nervous I’m gonna lose my gains.

Would you mind linking the masa that works well for you?

 

[Jennifer]

The milk could be playing a role, but I don't think it's the main determining factor because I also had a tongue coating when my diet had very little milk. It feels like the tongue coating sticks around no matter what I eat. It might be the fat though, as I saw a thread that @BigShoes posted mentioning that he gets a white tongue from too much saturated fat. I might try a low fat experiment if this low white-sugar one doesn't pan out.

I am not getting quite as many calories without the sugar, because I don't know what to replace them with. Pretty much every carb source causes some form of inflammation or reaction, I'm reluctant to add calories anywhere else since my fat and protein are both already high. Still, I think I'm getting enough calories--around 3000, from a bit of strawberries plus the milk.

Honey does improve the white tongue and also gives me deeper sleep, but it makes me incredibly bloated, so unfortunately I can't rely on it as a staple right now.

I appreciate you helping me brainstorm here.

Huh, interesting. If I’m remembering correctly, there was a period of time when you consumed low-fat goat’s milk instead? If so, do you recall if your tongue stayed cleaner then?

 

[BigShoes]

The milk could be playing a role, but I don't think it's the main determining factor because I also had a tongue coating when my diet had very little milk. It feels like the tongue coating sticks around no matter what I eat. It might be the fat though, as I saw a thread that @BigShoes posted mentioning that he gets a white tongue from too much saturated fat. I might try a low fat experiment if this low white-sugar one doesn't pan out.

I am not getting quite as many calories without the sugar, because I don't know what to replace them with. Pretty much every carb source causes some form of inflammation or reaction, I'm reluctant to add calories anywhere else since my fat and protein are both already high. Still, I think I'm getting enough calories--around 3000, from a bit of strawberries plus the milk.

Honey does improve the white tongue and also gives me deeper sleep, but it makes me incredibly bloated, so unfortunately I can't rely on it as a staple right now.

I appreciate you helping me brainstorm here.

I've tried a ton of supplements and haven't noticed any correlation with the tongue. However, most of them irritate my intestines. Right now, I take cynoplus only, and the white tongue still comes and goes regardless of my dose. I am reducing the cynoplus now though, so I'm keeping an eye out if that affects the tongue.

Last year, I consumed a low- and no-dairy diet with high meat, eggs, and fruit (starch does not digest well for me--I've tried nearly every form). But even with that diet, the white tongue was really bad. Even worse, on that diet I was getting waves of hot flashes every day combined with tachycardia. My heart rate was over 100 bpm sitting at my desk. When I switched from meat-based to milk-based in June 2021, the tachycardia and hot flashes instantly disappeared, so I do think the milk benefits me overall. Even on high milk, my white tongue improves sometimes for a few days. Cypro makes me very depressed but I don't notice a particular effect on the tongue.

What carb sources are you eating nowadays, with the meat and eggs?

Hi Vileplume - just to say:

1) Yes, when I have too much saturated animal fat I get a white tongue - certainly at c. 100g per day, but it seems to be pretty okay at 50g-60g as long as I make sure to brush, floss thoroughly and all that jazz.

I am unsure whether the white tongue is from poor digestion and reflux (from all the fat / bile), or if it is literally just the fat I am consuming just sticking around in my mouth and collecting on the tongue. It certainly does not smell bad (at least, at first), and I strongly doubt it is an infection / overgrowth (like candida etc.). Within a couple of days of very low fat and high carb, it clears up.

2) I have tried a "raw milk only" diet before, and have tried "carnivore with milk" - which was mostly eating about 1/2lb to 1lb of meat per day, then milk to make up the rest.

When I try this, I also experience significant white tongue. Once I drink 1 litre per day and over (c. a quart to you guys in the US), or maybe even when I get over half a litre - it is very noticeable - a thick white / cream coating. Once again, I believe this is either the fats from the dairy sticking around in my mouth, OR some kind of reflux from bad digestion / bile etc.

I found it very strange to see people on carnivore forums saying they can eat pounds of meat per day and feel amazing, with zero issues or negative symptoms. Similarly, I find it very strange that people on this forum can chug 1-2 quarts of OJ and 1-2 quarts of milk with gelatin and sugar (with a little liver) and feel great too. On paper, it sounds great, and I'd do it if I could. But in practice, it doesn't work for me at all.

I wish I had a solution for you. Too much protein and I get dry flaky skin, puffy eyes (thyroid?) and seem to have more hair shedding. Too much fat and I get white tongue, reduced digestion. Too much carbs and I experience a tonne of negative symptoms associated with the foods I choose, and the anti-nutrients in plant-based foods in general (e.g. acne, digestive issues, reduced teeth health, upset stomach). I think if I reduced each of the three macros to a manageable level where I did not experience any bad symptoms, I would be eating c. 1400 kcal per day - this is not enough to sustain a lean 6ft1 170-175lbs active male.

Quick Calculation w. my limits:
50g-60g Complete Animal Protein -> 200 - 240kcal
50g Saturated Fat -> 450kcal
200g Carbs from mostly sugars -> 800kcal
200 + 450 + 800 = 1450 kcal -> not sustainable.

 

[BigShoes]

Additionally - @aniciete could well be on to something with the dry mouth point. When I was "carnivore" and eating 400g+ of lean muscle, the more muscle I ate, the drier my lips became. Sometimes I would go up to 600g-800g of lean meat (as well as additional fat) and my lips would be come so dry and mouth would dry up to the point where I couldn't pronounce 'S' properly (no joke, sounded like a lisp).

Could be kidney stress, could be that digesting protein requires a lot of water internally. Not sure.

Whilst I don't think dry mouth is the cause of the white tongue, it certainly exacerbates it.

 

[aniciete]

These are great insights to consider. Thanks for sharing them. The dry mouth thing—rather than sibo—is an interesting angle. Have you gone long stretches without working out (at least intensely) to heal at times? I’m always nervous I’m gonna lose my gains.

Would you mind linking the masa that works well for you?

For sure
Amazon product ASIN B096CRH8GSView: https://www.amazon.com/KING-ARTHUR-FLOUR-MASA-HARINA/dp/B096CRH8GS/ref=sxts_rp_s_a_1_0?content-id=amzn1.sym.9cb06d61-cbae-4109-9d1e-14578fae3d41%3Aamzn1.sym.9cb06d61-cbae-4109-9d1e-14578fae3d41&crid=1G6G40MAJOBFY&cv_ct_cx=masa+harina&keywords=masa+harina&pd_rd_i=B096CRH8GS&pd_rd_r=3a060443-7949-4461-890e-8326e4edba76&pd_rd_w=dHXon&pd_rd_wg=tMWRk&pf_rd_p=9cb06d61-cbae-4109-9d1e-14578fae3d41&pf_rd_r=AB3A4SB5GQ0PBNDHSTND&psc=1&qid=1662139366&sprefix=%2Caps%2C178&sr=1-1-ea136695-3596-4534-80e7-1570345d02b9


I stopped working out for around 2 months and honestly I didn’t notice much compared to shorter workouts. Now I do like 30-45 minutes lifts 2-3 times a week and don’t force myself to if I don’t feel up to it. I definitely have less muscle mass compared to when I was working out 4-5 times a week but I feel a lot better. I forgot to mention too that very ripe honeydew melons digest perfectly for me. If they are borderline ripe I just stick them out on my patio and let them ripen even more because it’s so hot here.

 

[Vileplume]

Huh, interesting. If I’m remembering correctly, there was a period of time when you consumed low-fat goat’s milk instead? If so, do you recall if your tongue stayed cleaner then?

I was thinking about that too, but I don't remember exactly. If anything, during that period the white tongue was not a major issue. But I tried low fat A2 milk yesterday and it gave me bloating. I don't like the idea of consuming milk with synthetic vitamins anyway, so I think I will try to increase fiber from fruit.

I saw on your profile that you eat green seedless grapes from Trader Joe's. I bought a box this morning of their organic green seedless, and these grapes are some of the crispest I've found. When the skins are thick and require extra chewing, the grapes don't digest well. But when the skins are crispy and pop when chewed, the grapes digest much better. This batch of TJ's green seedless was like that.

I stopped working out for around 2 months and honestly I didn’t notice much compared to shorter workouts. Now I do like 30-45 minutes lifts 2-3 times a week and don’t force myself to if I don’t feel up to it. I definitely have less muscle mass compared to when I was working out 4-5 times a week but I feel a lot better. I forgot to mention too that very ripe honeydew melons digest perfectly for me. If they are borderline ripe I just stick them out on my patio and let them ripen even more because it’s so hot here.

Thank you. I've ordered some of that masa and will have steak quesadillas for dinner later this week. I also plan to lower the workout intensity significantly, combined with increased fruit intake. My libido has basically vanished as well lately, and while I think poor digestion is largely to blame for that, overexertion probably exacerbates it. Ripe honeydew digests perfectly for me too, but I cannot find it anywhere around here, even in CA.

Hi Vileplume - just to say:

1) Yes, when I have too much saturated animal fat I get a white tongue - certainly at c. 100g per day, but it seems to be pretty okay at 50g-60g as long as I make sure to brush, floss thoroughly and all that jazz.

I am unsure whether the white tongue is from poor digestion and reflux (from all the fat / bile), or if it is literally just the fat I am consuming just sticking around in my mouth and collecting on the tongue. It certainly does not smell bad (at least, at first), and I strongly doubt it is an infection / overgrowth (like candida etc.). Within a couple of days of very low fat and high carb, it clears up.

2) I have tried a "raw milk only" diet before, and have tried "carnivore with milk" - which was mostly eating about 1/2lb to 1lb of meat per day, then milk to make up the rest.

Hey BigShoes, I'm glad you hopped in because it definitely seems like we've had similar experiences. It sounds like for both of us, nailing down an easily digestive carb source would solve a world of issues. How do you do with white sugar? Have you tried masa harina, like aniciete mentioned?

 

[Jennifer]

I was thinking about that too, but I don't remember exactly. If anything, during that period the white tongue was not a major issue. But I tried low fat A2 milk yesterday and it gave me bloating. I don't like the idea of consuming milk with synthetic vitamins anyway, so I think I will try to increase fiber from fruit.

I saw on your profile that you eat green seedless grapes from Trader Joe's. I bought a box this morning of their organic green seedless, and these grapes are some of the crispest I've found. When the skins are thick and require extra chewing, the grapes don't digest well. But when the skins are crispy and pop when chewed, the grapes digest much better. This batch of TJ's green seedless was like that.

That’s too bad that the low-fat A2 caused bloating, but I’m glad you found some good grapes at TJ’s. Do you feel like you won the lottery? lol I know what you mean about ones with thick skins. Even if they’re sweet, I won’t buy them. To me, the best grapes are just as you described, have paper thin skins and more often than not, are round instead of oval. TJ’s also has pretty good peaches, too—the ones that come as a box of 12. I bought some white peaches at a local market last week that, I kid you not, weighed a pound each. One peach filled an entire quart sized, ziploc bag. They were some of the best I’ve ever had. I made some ice cream with them, and they were so sweet I ended up not needing to add any sweetener. I don’t know if you can tell the size of it well in this photo, but here’s one of the peaches:



I’ve been playing around with different fruits trying to get a smooth, fruit-based blender ice cream and white peaches are right up there with bananas. It doesn’t look smooth in the pitcher, but you can see how smooth it actually is from the bite I took:

 

[Tilly-J]

Oh, okay, @-Luke- and @Tilly-J. Given the sensitive nature of the subject, I questioned if I should log about it so thank you for the confirmation. I’ll try getting it posted by the end of the week.

My pleasure, Tilly-J. I totally understand being afraid to speak up. I still struggle with doing so myself. And yes, of course, all is good between us. :) Thank you for your compassionate words. What was modeled to me was completely unintentional and I take full responsibility for my failing health. Food was one of my main outlets for my anxiety, and on the surface it appeared to be a healthy outlet but in hindsight, I can see now how it led to my illness.

Please don’t ever think you’re bothering me. I only mentioned my diet on my profile page in case, in the future, you’re ever curious what I’m consuming. I appreciate the compliment. That’s kind of you to say. :) I do cover (dried) blueberries in white chocolate, yes. My shakes are just raw milk, a couple scoops of homemade vanilla ice cream and a cup of frozen fruit. Below is the ice cream recipe I use, except I replace the white sugar with apple sugar:

The Master Ice Cream Recipe

This is the ice cream base I use for nearly all of my ice creams. Why? Let me count the ways. I love a creamy, thick ice cream. Because this

www.theyumblog.com

And in case you’re interested, I also came up with an ice cream recipe that can be made and ready to eat in 5 minutes using a blender or food processor, and posted about it here:

We All Scream For No Cream Ice Cream - In Minutes! (with photos)

@Rinse & rePeat, I tried the gelatin again using your exact recipe and found the cup of honey when blended with the fruit to be way too sweet but without that much honey, the TBSP of gelatin wasn’t enough to keep the milk from becoming hard so as much as I didn’t want to rely on extra cream for...

raypeatforum.com

And these are the quiche recipes I use, but with a couple of tweaks:

Classic French Spinach Quiche - Once Upon a Chef

TESTED & PERFECTED RECIPE – Made with heavy cream and Gruyère, this rich spinach quiche is classic French. Perfect for a special brunch!

www.onceuponachef.com

The Best Quiche Recipe

From the flaky pie crust, to the creamy egg filling, this recipe is not only easy to make, but downright delicious! Choose from optional fillings!

amindfullmom.com

I’m sorry your doctor isn’t taking it all seriously. I imagine your bone density has improved as your nutrition has improved, at least, it did for me. I had been following a high-carb, low-protein, fruit-based, vegan diet for 3 years when I fractured. My Z score at the time was -6.7. I switched to a diet similar to my diet now, averaging a daily intake of 4 liters of whole milk, mostly in the form of goat yogurt and raw cow’s milk, as well as raw cheese, eggs, homemade bone broth, veggies, and small amounts of meat—roughly 85 g, mainly scallops and crab—and I supplemented with high vitamin butter oil and cod liver oil for the extra fat soluble vitamins, and within a year, I had gained back all the muscle I had lost, my bone density improved by 50%, and the cartilage in my chest that tore a year prior and wouldn’t heal, had finally healed up. My caloric intake and activity level were the same with both diets so…

Dear Jennifer,

I have read your reply to me so many times. Thank you for being so generous with your time and the information you share.

I have a major problem: very bad GERD/laryngopharyngeal reflux (LPR), which only really made themselves clear when I began my recovery journey of eating nutrient-dense foods and cutting out the empty calories and heaps of vegetables and porridge I was eating previously (which made me feel so bad).

I really wanted to make my version of what you do work, but anything fatty sets off the GERD. I have located a farm which sells raw cow's milk (very unusual in my part of the UK) and was so willing to really take on a diet to restore my health. It is the greatest stress to be living with a sense of what dietary manipulations just might save me but not being able to get off the starting block.

Of course, my GP has prescribed PPIs but I have not dared to take them. So all day and night I am aware of acid in my throat and feel that every dietary/nutritional move I make is the wrong one and may well be setting me up for oesophageal cancer. Perhaps the only right nutritional move would be to eat only three times per day, lean chicken and salad! I am far away from that. It is very hard to marry the theories to deal with GERD and LPR with eating for recovery of physical and emotional health. And the stress that this is causing me, is only exacerbating everything. It is truly dreadful. I feel so disempowered.

But, having said all that, I have been so pleased to receive the links for your various recipes and hope that you will not think your time has been wasted. Certainly not. I assume that that you just cook the filling for the quiche in a bowl without the pastry base? I do not have an ice cream maker so, if I can get started on a high dairy diet to save my bones and teeth, I shall do more shakes and your quick recipe. Only this weekend, I have a new toothache (exposed nerve, I think) which has developed (I already have an appointment for another cavity repair in a couple of weeks). I can only imagine that I am awash with corrosive cortisol which is destroying my teeth (and who knows what else inside me).

I am interested to hear you say to another member below that you find your sweet tooth has diminished greatly since increasing your fat. How I long for that to happen - simply from the point of view that I might then be able to ease my conscience just a little - for every time I eat honey and condensed milk (both of which I crave several times a day and feel I just need to reach even a reasonable calorie intake without too much bulk), I know that I am destroying my teeth even more.

I meant to ask if you have ever taken K2 as you have set out to increase your bone density and, if so, at what level?

I am sorry, Jennifer, I must not go on like this. I think I might only have asked you two questions here. If you are, at some point, able to answer those, I should be very grateful - what I mean is, please do not think that I need anything more from you - well not at the moment, if it is okay to say it like that?

I saw the picture you posted below of your beautiful white peaches. Here in the UK we have nothing like that. As you will know from so many other UK members, the state and variety of fruit is very bad. I have heard you say quite recently that you never knew getting/staying well could taste so good. I think that must be a wonderful place to be, but I also know that you have suffered greatly to get there and continue to work hard to maintain your gains.

I hope you do not think me a moaner. It is just that my heart and soul are so much in the right place but I am feeling a bit beaten down! I am a stayer really!

I hope that you find many little things to bring you joy today.

Best wishes,
Tilly-J

 

[Jennifer]

You seem like such a sweet soul, @Tilly-J. :)

I’m not sure exactly what you’ve tried so please ignore my unsolicited advice if you’ve been there, done that. And I hope this will ease your mind—the way I was eating when I increased my bone density is not the only way. Even though I wasn’t coming from a history of calorie restriction, with such a nutrient poor diet as fruitarianism and low-protein, plant-based, it was as if I was, and just giving my body all that protein and calcium did wonders for it so please don’t let your body’s current limitations have you fearing you can’t reverse the damage, okay? I think the most important thing is getting enough easily digested, a.k.a tolerable to you, sources of protein, calcium, carbohydrates etc., and calories in general, to meet your body’s needs.

I struggled for years to digest fat, had terrible acid reflux and gallbladder attacks, which is partly why I ended up back on a fruitarian diet for several years so I understand the predicament you’re in. My ultrasounds showed I had gallstones and liver “sludge” and I averaged less than 5% of my calories from fat for 5 years (?) because of it. I think I mentioned this to you but I went all in when I refed and it landed me in the hospital so I think slowly working up to the amount of fat I’m able to consume now would likely have been the wiser approach. Maybe had I been able to convince doctors to prescribe me thyroid sooner, I would have tolerated fat sooner, but there are supplements like Ancestral Supplements’ gallbladder with ox bile that might help?

Grass Fed Beef Gallbladder Supplements - Ancestral Supplements

Our unique gallbladder supplements provide concentrated amounts of gallbladder-specific building blocks, bile and liver that support key organs vital to digestion that are absent from the modern diet.

ancestralsupplements.com

In regards to raw milk, I started out skimming mine and even without the cream, I found it a godsend because not only did it not trigger acid reflux, it calmed it, and after years on a fruitarian diet, it provided my body with much needed nutrition to heal. Bone broth was another staple that was easy for me to digest and soothing to not only my esophagus but also my intestines. I used Thorne’s K2 back in 2014 (?) and it bothered my intestines and caused nightmares so I stopped taking it. I do much better with food sources of K2 such as butter, cheese and eggs, but those obviously won’t work for you at this point so I would say if you think it might help, a K2 supplement could be worth a try. Oh, I just remembered, liver provides K2, also. Do you like and tolerate liver?

I can understand how difficult it is finding good fruit, sure. We have beautiful orchards in New England but even still, our climate doesn’t allow for good fruit year round so I buy extra in season and freeze it to have a steady supply during the winter, however, I also buy a lot of already frozen and canned fruit. The first Peaches & Cream batch of ice cream that I posted on Rinse &rePeat’s thread was made with canned yellow peaches that I put in the freezer ahead of time. Ripe bananas also work brilliantly as they have a lower water content, making for a creamy ice cream, and being a low acid fruit, you might find that they’re friendlier to your teeth?

Both the ice cream and shake recipes can be adapted to your body’s current digestive limitations. For example, instead of whole milk, you could use skimmed milk and instead of dairy cream or ice cream (in the shake), you could try coconut cream or if you find you also have issues digesting coconut fat, you could try non-fat powdered milk. It would thicken it and bump up the calories, especially when combined with ripe bananas. You could also add some collagen powder? My dad was experiencing acid reflux so I started adding collagen powder to his meals and his reflux disappeared so maybe it would help relieve the GERD?

And please, no worries about moaning. Lord knows I’ve done my fair share of it so you’re in good company.

Much love, and take care!