Milk And Chocolate Giving Me Acne?

[Sourdoughbanana]

I think we got a high estrogen person over here!

How about me drinking tons of milk and not having any acne from it?
But when I drink a sprite or coke I get acne?

I could point to a lot of people with minimal acne but when they drink high fructose corn syrup high preservative citric acid gunk they get acne.
I guess what happens in real life doesn't matter though, in fact I'm lying and I have a ton of acne from my homogenized milk! It was all a scam to support the dairy industry!!

Your n=1 doesn’t mean much. Dairy correlates with acne in so many scientific reviews, I’m not sure why you’re being facetious

 

[Arrade]

Your n=1 doesn’t mean much. Dairy correlates with acne in so many scientific reviews, I’m not sure why you’re being facetious

....
So I'm the only person on earth who can drink milk and doesn't become acne riddled?
Guess you've never been to Midwest America.

His "science ultimately means you have to have acne from milk ingestion" diatribe was absurd enough to demand facetiousness

 

[jacob]

Your n=1 doesn’t mean much. Dairy correlates with acne in so many scientific reviews, I’m not sure why you’re being facetious

I tried including milk in my Ray Peat inspired diet for more than 2 years. It always gave me acne on my face, shoulders, back, and chest. The only thing that resolves the acne is completely eliminating milk and then the acne disappears 100%. I tried every version of milk available to me, from the cheapest store brand to the most obscure novelty brand (including A2) and never saw a significant change. Goat milk gives me the least amount of skin inflammation/acne, but it still gives me acne. Ice cream gives me the same acne to some extent, but cheese and yogurt don't seem to be a problem.

I also tried every combination of increasing vitamin A, decreasing vitamin A, eating more liver, adjusting supplements, etc etc etc. The only thing that resolves the acne is ditching milk.

I digest all versions of milk very well. No bloating, no intestinal problems. My digestion is actually at its best when including milk in my diet, but it comes at the expense of my skin, so I avoid it now since its obviously inflammatory at some level.

 

[Runenight201]

@Arrade

I’m not going to pretend like I know enough about biochemistry to present the nuances, but I do think that perhaps individual hormonal/metabolic environments may determine whether one expresses acne or not from dairy consumption. I don’t think I’d go so far as saying that all dairy causes acne, as evidenced by you and others who consume it acne free, but in those who have acne, dairy can be implicated. And perhaps even implicating dairy is too high up and it really has to go to a more granular level, where the claim is, of those who have acne, high igf-1/androgen levels are implicated.

Perhaps consuming milk raises your igf-1 levels to a certain point, but not high enough to cause acne, and then when you consume sugar on top of your milk consumption, your igf-1 levels tip over and cause acne. An interesting experiment would be to cease dairy consumption and freely consume fruit, sugar, coconut, and leaves and see if you remain acne free.

 

[Arrade]

I tried including milk in my Ray Peat inspired diet for more than 2 years. It always gave me acne on my face, shoulders, back, and chest. The only thing that resolves the acne is completely eliminating milk and then the acne disappears 100%. I tried every version of milk available to me, from the cheapest store brand to the most obscure novelty brand (including A2) and never saw a significant change. Goat milk gives me the least amount of skin inflammation/acne, but it still gives me acne. Ice cream gives me the same acne to some extent, but cheese and yogurt don't seem to be a problem.

I also tried every combination of increasing vitamin A, decreasing vitamin A, eating more liver, adjusting supplements, etc etc etc. The only thing that resolves the acne is ditching milk.

I digest all versions of milk very well. No bloating, no intestinal problems. My digestion is actually at its best when including milk in my diet, but it comes at the expense of my skin, so I avoid it now since its obviously inflammatory at some level.

Maybe it's not digestion
But I know a lot of people who drink milk at every meal without acne...

 

[Arrade]

@Arrade

I’m not going to pretend like I know enough about biochemistry to present the nuances, but I do think that perhaps individual hormonal/metabolic environments may determine whether one expresses acne or not from dairy consumption. I don’t think I’d go so far as saying that all dairy causes acne, as evidenced by you and others who consume it acne free, but in those who have acne, dairy can be implicated. And perhaps even implicating dairy is too high up and it really has to go to a more granular level, where the claim is, of those who have acne, high igf-1/androgen levels are implicated.

Perhaps consuming milk raises your igf-1 levels to a certain point, but not high enough to cause acne, and then when you consume sugar on top of your milk consumption, your igf-1 levels tip over and cause acne. An interesting experiment would be to cease dairy consumption and freely consume fruit, sugar, coconut, and leaves and see if you remain acne free.

Fruit never causes acne either. If I get a lot of sugar I might get acne.
See at least you're making sense. I never made the argument milk doesn't cause some people acne, I just know plenty for whom it never does.

 

[Lynne]

ok.. ill try no chocolate first and see what happens.. i like milk alot....

Double-blind, Placebo-controlled Study Assessing the Effect of Chocolate Consumption in Subjects with a History of Acne Vulgaris

 

[Arrade]

And here I am thinking of switching to chocolate milk for peak anabolism

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

....
So I'm the only person on earth who can drink milk and doesn't become acne riddled?
Guess you've never been to Midwest America.

I've been there often, and I wouldn't pinpoint Midwest America as a health panacea territory. Kids there have acne, and every other Western related disease as well. Granted, we are all different towards what causes the visible inflammation.

....His "science ultimately means you have to have acne from milk ingestion" diatribe was absurd enough to demand facetiousness

yeah well maybe, but it's a reasonable conclusion to single out pro inflammatory mechanisms from food. Some people have good skin genetics, but then they may go bald because of the same inflammatory response to food. Some may develop CVD. You don't know where the biochemistry hits, so it's better to avoid things that have a higher risk.

That said, if you're in your 20s and active and happy, it's all a-okay I guess?

 

[Arrade]

I've been there often, and I wouldn't pinpoint Midwest America as a health panacea territory. Kids there have acne, and every other Western related disease as well. Granted, we are all different towards what causes the visible inflammation.




yeah well maybe, but it's a reasonable conclusion to single out pro inflammatory mechanisms from food. Some people have good skin genetics, but then they may go bald because of the same inflammatory response to food. Some may develop CVD. You don't know where the biochemistry hits, so it's better to avoid things that have a higher risk.

That said, if you're in your 20s and active and happy, it's all a-okay I guess?

Fight me IRL

 

[Arrade]

I've been there often, and I wouldn't pinpoint Midwest America as a health panacea territory. Kids there have acne, and every other Western related disease as well. Granted, we are all different towards what causes the visible inflammation.




yeah well maybe, but it's a reasonable conclusion to single out pro inflammatory mechanisms from food. Some people have good skin genetics, but then they may go bald because of the same inflammatory response to food. Some may develop CVD. You don't know where the biochemistry hits, so it's better to avoid things that have a higher risk.

That said, if you're in your 20s and active and happy, it's all a-okay I guess?

I feel like you have a personal problem

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I think we got a high estrogen person over here!

ohhh, that person was you? High estrogen high DHT how's the frustration going? No personal problems here, life's good. Not sure where/how you felt threatened when I rather quietly explained how not every single person in the world is like you and your fam, most likely the opposite with regards to milk.

If you feel like Midwest America is top notch when it comes to low disease I'd happily want to know more.

 

[Arrade]

ohhh, that person was you? High estrogen high DHT how's the frustration going? No personal problems here, life's good. Not sure where/how you felt threatened when I rather quietly explained how not every single person in the world is like you and your fam, most likely the opposite with regards to milk.

If you feel like Midwest America is top notch when it comes to low disease I'd happily want to know more.

Bro you ok?
I was clearly taking about the Midwest only in the scope of good skin while ingesting a lot of milk.

I don’t even know where disease or whatever is coming in

Also why are you talking to yourself

 

[Aymen]

Jesus, just imagine what bottled soda would do? I feel the association with dairy is so strong that it makes very little sense to deny it, and I have seen no evidence that glucose or fructose induces acne:

Vora, S. "Correlation of facial sebum to serum insulin‐like growth factor‐1 in patients with acne." British Journal of Dermatology (2008)

'Acne is a disease found only in humans and is associated with sebaceous gland hyperactivity. It occurs at the same time as sebaceous gland development, i.e. increased sebum production coincides with adrenarche. Sebum has been shown to be comedogenic and can cause inflammation when injected cutaneously. Androgens play an important role in increasing the sebaceous gland size, stimulating sebum production and stimulating keratinocyte proliferation in the pilosebaceous unit. Several studies have shown that elevated levels of serum androgens correlate with overproduction of sebum and acne.' ―Vora​

View attachment 10846

'In addition to androgen in the serum, it is known that insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) levels correlate with severity of acne in women. Serum IGF-1 levels are also known to be the highest during puberty, which is when sebum production begins and this coincides with the occurrence of acne. A recent paper indicates that this upregulation is mediated by the protein kinase B/inositol triphosphate/SREBP-1 pathway.' ―Vora​

Smith, Terry. "IGF-1 induces SREBP-1 expression and lipogenesis in SEB-1 sebocytes via activation of the phosphoinositide 3-kinase/Akt pathway." Journal of investigative dermatology (2008)
Danby, William. "Acne and milk, the diet myth, and beyond." Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology (2005)
Cordain, Loren. "Acne vulgaris: a disease of Western civilization." Archives of dermatology (2002)

Cool to know if Androgens , IGF-1 play a role in Seborrheic dermatitis and eczema or not ?

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

I’ll let Travis respond in a more technical fashion, but yes absolutely they do. Androgens are perceived as candid because testosterone is a great hormone, and low dose DHT as well, but their association with insulin resistance and all types of inflammation is a chicken or egg situation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0738081X17301669?via=ihub

It’s a paper on alopecia but they have an interesting chart where Androgens are central to many issues. I’d include the 2 you mentioned in there.

I typically do like the authors in this study and blame it on a faulty glucose metabolism taking down SHBG, however the IGF-1 and exogenous Androgens in foods can totally be factored in. There’s also the inflammatory response to pollutants or lectins that could be envisioned. When in doubt regarding a larger meal, i pop Betaine hcl so that my digestion isn’t triggering any itching. You have to consider that histamine is necessary to produce HCL at the parietal cell level, and that alone can trigger inflammatory responses. Even worse is the meal requires hours of acid secretion?

 

[Arthur78]

Everything seems to give me acne. It's been a constant struggle of mine for decades. Things that I know for sure give me acne are:

1. Anything with starch: grains, tubers, even bananas.
2. Dairy, with possible exception of ghee and whey. Although if I over do it with those I can get some white heads on my arms (still investigating that).
3. Nuts.

Bizarrely sugar (sucrose) and chocolate don't give me acne. I spent a full year eating obscene amounts of Nutella after every meal with no acne, because I really wanted to gain weight and muscle and it seemed the only easy, affordable and delicious form of dense calories that didn't give me acne, until I wised up and cut it out for the sake of my long term health. Although that year of sugar heavy eating seems to have given me permanent growths/bumps on my face (not sure if they're what's called 'skin tags' or not).

 

[Runenight201]

I think there’s for sure something there with starches. Even after cutting out all dairy and meats and eggs, and eating fruits, leaves, and coconuts, eating big piles of starches would result in cysts forming on my back. White rice did it the worst, so I think either the insulinergic effect of starches can be behind what’s driving this for me. This would primarily happen when I ate starches past what my body told me was enough, simply because i always felt hungry and energy depleted, and so I figured I’d override my body’s mechanisms telling me to stop because I knew I needed more energy.

So I threw milk, cheese, butter, yogurt and meat back into the mix, and dramatically decreased the amount of starches I eat, and I’m having mixed results. Meat for sure drives my oily skin, but it also provides me with dense calories in the way other foods don’t. If I balance my meat consumption with fruits and greens, I can usually avoid very oily skin. I do feel satiated for longer as compared to just eating starch, which is good, and I slept better last night then I have in months, so positive signs for sure.

While acne is definitely a sign of state of health, perhaps follow amount of energy, sleep, satiation, mood, and mental clarity foods give instead? Those are far more important in terms of health and success, and perhaps they’ll fix the acne puzzle on the side. If I were to solely focus on acne, I would be stuck eating fruit and leaves, and that would eventually be a train wreck for me somewhere down the line

Of course, don’t forget the power of direct sunlight on areas of acne. I think intelligent use of sun tanning can also positively impact acne (and a number of other health markers too =P )

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

Maybe you guys should supplement enzymes for those starches. They should be perfectly safe foods for acne, low GI, high potassium, low sodium, decent magnesium etc.

A high fat + starch meal sure sounds like a disaster though. My starchy meals are always low fat as possible. Fasted Insulin is stable around 6iu, hbA1c is down to 5.4% from 6+, and that’s on very high starch / high carbs in general, but low fat of course.

Acne is very much a matter of insulin resistance imo, so glucose metabolism (metabolic syndrome). That or auto immunity, leaky gut, unhealthy flora. Ergo, back to enzymatic supplementation... plus the independent variables Food Androgens + IGF-1

 

[Travis]

Acne is very much a matter of insulin resistance imo, so glucose metabolism (metabolic syndrome). That or auto immunity, leaky gut, unhealthy flora. Ergo, back to enzymatic supplementation... plus the independent variables Food Androgens + IGF-1

I don't think IGF-1 need be considered independent of insulin, as the latter appears to induce hepatic synthesis and release of the former. I know that fruit and sucrose generally tend towards a lower insulin response as compared to starch, or polyglucose, because sucrose is composed of ¹⁄₂ fructose. Cellular fructose uptake is largely independent of the concentration of insulin, which is not even significantly released after its consumption. I think it's fair to assume that the great majority of insulin released after sucrose comes from the glucose half of the disaccharide. Even though fruit is very sweet and has far more free sugars, starch always causes a greater insulin spike because it's 100% glucose.