Methylene Blue (MB) Reverses Fatty Liver Disease

[Such_Saturation]

Wouldn't 600mg make your eyes blue?

 

[Tarmander]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97905/ Wouldn't 600mg make your eyes blue?

Embrace the Spice...

 

[Such_Saturation]

Away from aged cheeses

 

[sunmountain]

Thanks, Haidut. In my case, thyroid has resolved both fatigue but also the muscle weakness/stiffness/pain (I also showed low titers of AchR a month or two ago). It may have improved sugar metabolism a bit. Before this round of thyroid, I did take low-dose MB (oxidal) and before that caffeine. MB absolutely gave me energy at a time when I was extremely fatigued and literally helped me function. But it did nothing for my muscle. Together with preg and pge, thyroid is bringing me back into the land of the living!

Your comment about thyroid supplementation inhibiting production of the body's own thyroid is something for me to think about down the line after I stay healthy for a while, including getting rid of sibo. If nothing else works for sibo, who knows I might want to try MB for it at some point.

Thank you

 

[charlie]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97931/ If nothing else works for sibo, who knows I might want to try MB for it at some point.

I am considering this too.

Right now using MB to irrigate my nose and try to wipe out this sinus infection. If anyone sees an issue with that please let me know.

 

[cantstoppeating]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97870/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97777/ Hi Haidut,

I recently began to have thyroid working for me at effective doses, and am continuing to slowly increase it (t3 and t4). My methane sibo and its bloat is still there, though I think transit is slowly improving especially with t3.

From your post above, it seems you prefer MB over thyroid. May I ask why? Are there downsides to thyroid that MB does not have, or benefits to MB that thyroid cannot provide?

I am thrilled that thyroid is finally working for me. I'm still fiddling with the dosage, and expect it will take a few more weeks to get it right. I'm wondering if MB has a role if thyroid is working -- apart from the issue of using it for sibo which you recommended and I'm still considering, as nothing else has worked for it so far. I do also have a fatty liver, and don't know if that can be addressed by thyroid alone, or better in conjunction with MB once I settle on a dose for thyroid.

Thank you

If thyroid is working for you I would not mess with it. I am one of the people for whom thyroid was always hit or miss and I always got better response with thyroid "surrogates" so to speak, including caffeine. Ray said that MB works like thyroid in sub-milligram doses and I prefer it b/c thyroid is a hormone and it leads to the suppression of the natural production of thyroid form your own gland. In some cases this is the only option that works, but in my case I get better results from MB and caffeine and I also prefer to not inhibit natural thyroid synthesis. This is the reason I do not like supplementing with steroids at the end of the pathways since they all have negative feedback mechanisms and suppress endogenous production. Pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA do not have such drawbacks AFAIK.
So, bottom line - caffeine and MB work better for me than thyroid in terms of temperature, pulse and energy. And caffeine is hugely dopaminergic for me, which is something thyroid does not do.
Everybody is different, so if thyroid works for you I'd stick with it.

I'm similar, I tried thyroid (cynoplus) but it didn't have the beneficial effects unless I was only taking T3 (cynomel) in hourly physiological doses but then that become too impractical. Instead a daily dose of 30mg pregnenolone does everything thyroid is purported to do: stable temps, warms hand and feet, pink-reddish skin tone (i.e. good blood flow).

Then I tried a drop of MB (oxidial) in water and within 10 minutes experienced faster heart beat, warmer hands and feet. And now I'm coupling it with 1g of aspirin twice daily to increase the uncoupling effect. Good things are happening.

About caffeine, this is what I don't understand. You've said that handling caffeine is a good indication of liver status yet the mainstream explanation is that handling caffeine is the result of adenosine receptors up-regulating to the dose of caffeine so that over time one needs more and and more to get the same effects. If one abstains from caffeine for a few weeks, they can't ingest the same amount as they previously did because their adenosine receptors have down-regulated. If the liver is responsible, this means the liver became inefficient again in those few weeks of caffeine abstinence.
Regardless of the mechanism, whether its adenosine receptors or something else, the pattern is the same i.e. when people first take caffeine they feel the full effect and then over time it becomes diminished unless more is taken. The effect of caffeine can be 'reset' given a few weeks of abstinence. This doesn't lend well to the idea that caffeine would be a good indicator of liver health.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think the heartbeat and sweating effects are different from the shaking and crash that are seen in sick people. In my opinion the former is affected by habituation. But when I quit caffeine I only had to reduce the dose by one-half upon restarting, and only for a couple days.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97901/ Haidut: how much sugar or meal of sugar/protein do you need to have for each 600mg dose to not get a stress reaction'?

I take it with a glass or orange juice and not much else. I avoid high protein meals with caffeine since it can increase ammonia.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97905/ Wouldn't 600mg make your eyes blue?

I am taking 600mg caffeine (2-3 times a day) with 1mg MB, not the other way around

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97903/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/91339/ I'm ordering from Haidut shortly, though. None of his customers are fish, that I know of

Lol, that's correct. The MB we use for Oxidal is USP-quality and is approved for human use.
Btw, great update Nick! I am glad MB is helping so much. The only thing I would add to that regimen is a little caffeine (as in Oxidal). Start with a lower dose caffeine (100mg) first and increase as needed.
WARNING: That "protocol" will cause uncoupling and will make you sweat buckets but it will also greatly add to that feeling of youth you describe and I have experienced myself. I personally get it from the 600mg caffeine doses I take a few times a day. Took me about a month to work up to that dose (1,500mg caffeine daily) but now I understand why all the animal studies use similar dose and why Peat himself takes more than 1,000mg caffeine daily. It makes you hot (literally) and young again and removes the need for any type of thyroid supplementation. I am even afraid to add aspirin now since caffeine by itself raises my temperatures so much...

Hey haidut, could you please elaborate a little bit more on the relation about uncoupling of the mithocondria and sweating a lot ?

Is sweating good in a context of increasing metabolism ? Does it stop once metabolism is restored ?

Thanks in advance man.

Well, if mitochondria is uncoupled you produce a lot more heat and less ATP, so naturally you'd sweat a lot. High adrenaline can also make you sweat but it also makes your hands/feet cold, while uncoupling should make you hot all over. Uncoupling should always cause sweating, even with good metabolism, since the body needs to cool off somehow and sweating is the natural way to do it. I guess mild uncoupling is preferable unless you are trying to lose weight, since too much heat and not enough ATP can leave you exhausted. Just ask anybody who has used DNP for weight loss - they feel drained at the end.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97973/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97870/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/97777/ Hi Haidut,

I recently began to have thyroid working for me at effective doses, and am continuing to slowly increase it (t3 and t4). My methane sibo and its bloat is still there, though I think transit is slowly improving especially with t3.

From your post above, it seems you prefer MB over thyroid. May I ask why? Are there downsides to thyroid that MB does not have, or benefits to MB that thyroid cannot provide?

I am thrilled that thyroid is finally working for me. I'm still fiddling with the dosage, and expect it will take a few more weeks to get it right. I'm wondering if MB has a role if thyroid is working -- apart from the issue of using it for sibo which you recommended and I'm still considering, as nothing else has worked for it so far. I do also have a fatty liver, and don't know if that can be addressed by thyroid alone, or better in conjunction with MB once I settle on a dose for thyroid.

Thank you

If thyroid is working for you I would not mess with it. I am one of the people for whom thyroid was always hit or miss and I always got better response with thyroid "surrogates" so to speak, including caffeine. Ray said that MB works like thyroid in sub-milligram doses and I prefer it b/c thyroid is a hormone and it leads to the suppression of the natural production of thyroid form your own gland. In some cases this is the only option that works, but in my case I get better results from MB and caffeine and I also prefer to not inhibit natural thyroid synthesis. This is the reason I do not like supplementing with steroids at the end of the pathways since they all have negative feedback mechanisms and suppress endogenous production. Pregnenolone, progesterone, and DHEA do not have such drawbacks AFAIK.
So, bottom line - caffeine and MB work better for me than thyroid in terms of temperature, pulse and energy. And caffeine is hugely dopaminergic for me, which is something thyroid does not do.
Everybody is different, so if thyroid works for you I'd stick with it.

I'm similar, I tried thyroid (cynoplus) but it didn't have the beneficial effects unless I was only taking T3 (cynomel) in hourly physiological doses but then that become too impractical. Instead a daily dose of 30mg pregnenolone does everything thyroid is purported to do: stable temps, warms hand and feet, pink-reddish skin tone (i.e. good blood flow).

Then I tried a drop of MB (oxidial) in water and within 10 minutes experienced faster heart beat, warmer hands and feet. And now I'm coupling it with 1g of aspirin twice daily to increase the uncoupling effect. Good things are happening.

About caffeine, this is what I don't understand. You've said that handling caffeine is a good indication of liver status yet the mainstream explanation is that handling caffeine is the result of adenosine receptors up-regulating to the dose of caffeine so that over time one needs more and and more to get the same effects. If one abstains from caffeine for a few weeks, they can't ingest the same amount as they previously did because their adenosine receptors have down-regulated. If the liver is responsible, this means the liver became inefficient again in those few weeks of caffeine abstinence.
Regardless of the mechanism, whether its adenosine receptors or something else, the pattern is the same i.e. when people first take caffeine they feel the full effect and then over time it becomes diminished unless more is taken. The effect of caffeine can be 'reset' given a few weeks of abstinence. This doesn't lend well to the idea that caffeine would be a good indicator of liver health.

How fast caffeine is metabolized is used clinically to diagnose liver disease. I agree with the conditioning effects, but if a person can't handle even 100mg caffeine without shaking/crashing this does not bode well for their liver function. They also won't be able to adjust that well to caffeine and will probably stay at the low dose for a long time. When their caffeine tolerance improves it will likely be due to improved liver function and not so much downregualtion of adenosine receptors. Here is something to consider.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25853045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24714782

 

[Giraffe]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98018/ I take it with a glass or orange juice and not much else. I avoid high protein meals with caffeine since it can increase ammonia.

Haidut, thanks for mentioning this. My sweat sometimes smells like ammonia, and I noticed that restricting coffee solves this. Is it only the combo high protein/caffeine that causes problems? How do you time protein and caffeine intake? (I am wondering about the long half-life of caffeine.)

Do you know of anything else I could try? (Thiamin and Ceylon cinnamon do not help.)

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98262/

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98018/ I take it with a glass or orange juice and not much else. I avoid high protein meals with caffeine since it can increase ammonia.

Haidut, thanks for mentioning this. My sweat sometimes smells like ammonia, and I noticed that restricting coffee solves this. Is it only the combo high protein/caffeine that causes problems? How do you time protein and caffeine intake? (I am wondering about the long half-life of caffeine.)

Do you know of anything else I could try? (Thiamin and Ceylon cinnamon do not help.)

Zinc also reduces ammonia. There is a thread on that on the forum but I can't find it right now. Biotin does the same AFAIK.
I take caffeine away from big protein meals. Usually, 2-3 hours away from meals is enough to not get ammonia issues, at least for me.

 

[Giraffe]

Thank you, Haidut.

 

[dd99]

I take it with a glass or orange juice and not much else. I avoid high protein meals with caffeine since it can increase ammonia.

Thanks, haidut. Do you mean you don't have sugar in the coffee, but have O.J. around the same time? And if you avoid coffee around high protein meals, what do you do to inhibit iron absorption with red meat?

 

[supercoolguy]

YEah....Thats what im wondering. No coffee with red meat? have you lost your bloody mind? I also wondered about What and how much MB for reducing NO? Plus i search MB and Serotonin Syndrome pops-up! for SSRI users. But would that include anybody to a degree?

 

[SQu]

Good to know about the caffeine ammonia link. This may change my meal routine. Could milk successfully replace coffee for lowering iron absorption? To the same extent? I am watching an age spot shrink, lighten and break up. An indicator for progress.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98334/

I take it with a glass or orange juice and not much else. I avoid high protein meals with caffeine since it can increase ammonia.

Thanks, haidut. Do you mean you don't have sugar in the coffee, but have O.J. around the same time? And if you avoid coffee around high protein meals, what do you do to inhibit iron absorption with red meat?

I take caffeine in capsules to be able to get 600mg+ in a dose. So, OJ or other sugary drink seems natural. My iron is in the lower range of normal to start with (indicated by ferritin, transferrin, ceruloplasmin, etc) so I don't really need to control it that much. I used aspirin and vitamin E in high doses a few years back and I think that depleted it. Iron used to be mid to high levels and is now at the bottom of the normal range.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98348/ YEah....Thats what im wondering. No coffee with red meat? have you lost your bloody mind? I also wondered about What and how much MB for reducing NO? Plus i search MB and Serotonin Syndrome pops-up! for SSRI users. But would that include anybody to a degree?

Well, it looks like I am one of the few people here that has no issue with iron (for now), so I don't need to avoid it as actively as everybody else. Serotonin syndrome from MB would required 100mg+ single dose (usually IV) or if you are taking SSRI then at least 20mg - 30mg concurrently. But everybody is different so your dose may vary. In the doses used for mitochondrial health (<1mg per day) I don't think there is much risk with MB even with SSRI use.

 

[haidut]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/98352/ Good to know about the caffeine ammonia link. This may change my meal routine. Could milk successfully replace coffee for lowering iron absorption? To the same extent? I am watching an age spot shrink, lighten and break up. An indicator for progress.

Yes, the protein lactoferrin in milk will inhibit iron absorption. I don't know how it compares to coffee in effectiveness but babies have been known to get iron deficiency if they are fed mostly milk.