Metabolically, children are different species compared to adults

haidut

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A great study, which once again puts metabolism in the spotlight. Many studies have tried to discover the main biological differences between children and adults and so far none of them have discovered a "smoking gun". At the same time, multiple studies have demonstrated that children are much more resilient to both infections and "adult" diseases such as cancer and "autoimmune" conditions (though this is changing lately as the health of the young has demonstrably declined), recovery more quickly from fatigue, trauma, starvation, etc. Considering that the risk of adult diseases rises with...well...adulthood, it is likely that something in the aging process is responsible for those changes. Yet, structurally, not much changes with advancing age inside cells except the likelihood of spontaneous DNA mutations, but that only becomes substantial in people over the age of 80. The study below may have finally found the smoking gun and that is, of course, metabolism! As the study demonstrates, young children have at least 50% higher resting metabolic rate compared to adults, and this discrepancy is so high that it technically designates children as separate species! Peat mentioned in one of his articles that the children of a given species resemble the adults of species of higher evolutionary complexity. The findings of the study below perfectly corroborate that view - i.e. children are our evolutionary future due to higher metabolism, and if we manage to restore the metabolism of an adult back to childhood levels that adult is likely to stop regressing. Speaking of regressing, the study has several other interesting findings. Namely, the metabolic rate continues to rise up until the age of 5, then declines a bit until the age of 20 is reached, then it stays stable until the age of 60 (not sure about that one), and then declines by about 25% by the time the person reaches the age of 90. In addition, the brain consumes more than 40% of daily calories in a child up until the age of 5, which is higher than what is seen in adults and likely explains the much higher intelligence and learning abilities of young children. Conversely, it also suggests that intelligence (or lack thereof) is an energy problem and as such it can be modulated by modulating the metabolic rate. Since intelligence and longevity have been conclusively shown to be highly correlated, it also suggests that aging itself can also be modulated (reversed?) by modulating the metabolic rate. This hypothesis has already been corroborated by studies demonstrating that metabolic boosters such as caffeine, aspirin, progesterone, T3, DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone, DHT, vitamin D, etc are all capable of extending both average and maximum lifespan.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/36/13010.full.pdf
Daily energy expenditure through the human life course | Science
Little kids burn so much energy, they’re like a different species, study finds

"...As any parent knows, toddlers are bundles of energy. Now, the first comprehensive study of energy use over the human life span has quantified their burn rate: Infants between the ages of 9 and 15 months expend a stunning 50% more energy in 1 day than adults do, adjusted for body size. These wee dynamos consume and use up energy even faster than pregnant women and teenage boys, most likely to fuel their energetically expensive brains and organs. “Little people are not burning energy like small adults,” says Duke University evolutionary biologist Herman Pontzer, who led the new analysis of data from around the world. “They are burning energy superfast … like a different species.”

"...When the scientists plotted metabolic rates across life span, they found infants are born with the same metabolic rates as their mothers, when adjusted for their smaller body size. But between 9 and 15 months, they rev up their cells to burn energy faster, the team reports today in Science. Children’s metabolic rates stay high until age 5, but the rate slowly begins to glide down until it plateaus around age 20. Interestingly, adult rates are stable until age 60, when they begin to decline. After age 90, humans use about 26% less energy daily, Pontzer says. The study also found that pregnant women don’t have higher metabolic rates than other adults; their energy use and calorie consumption scales up with body size. “We know that pregnant women burn more calories, but they’re burning more energy just by virtue of being bigger,” Pontzer says. The metabolic rate didn’t zoom up in hungry teenagers either, which also makes the findings seem counterintuitive. “When kids hit puberty, there seems to be a big spike in how many calories they’re consuming,” Pontzer says. “In your 30s and 40s, people often feel like they slow down; when menopause hits, you slow down more.” But metabolic rate doesn’t change at those times. Hormonal changes, stress, disease, growth, and activity levels influence appetite, energy, and body weight, he says. Pontzer speculates that the metabolic rate speeds up in toddlers because developmental changes in the brain, other organs, or the immune system consume lots of energy. And it slows in older people as their organs shrink and they lose gray matter in their brains. The growing brain is likely the key energy sucker in little kids, says biological anthropologist Chris Kuzawa of Northwestern University. Kuzawa did not participate in this study, but in 2014 his team found that the brains of young children consume a stunning 43% of all energy used by the body."
 

LucyL

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“We know that pregnant women burn more calories, but they’re burning more energy just by virtue of being bigger,” Pontzer says.

I don't buy that. I gained maybe 15 pounds during a pregnancy, and burned far more energy than merely gaining 15 pounds would manifest.
 
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If the "transhumanist" community were able to understand, even at a basic level the implications of this study and many others like this that are floating around the forum, they would deem Ray as being "trans-human" quite literally, and even a prime example of a "posthuman", not only because Ray uses the CO2 tank on a daily basis, but because his cognitive abilites are -compared to average humans, and also gifted humans- "posthuman".
 
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area51puy

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This hypothesis has already been corroborated by studies demonstrating that metabolic boosters such as caffeine, aspirin, progesterone, T3, DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone, DHT, vitamin D, etc are all capable of extending both average and maximum lifespan.
What are the etc?

Those can extend life and health span. What else can expand life health span?

you are full of so much information and people like Ben greenfield have written books on longevity. Have you ever thought about writing a book about health and longevity.
In his book he talked about methylene blue and I tried it and had more energy and started searching for more info about it and wasn’t much about it, but came across you talking about it on some podcast and heard you talking about ray peat and this forum and lead me down the metabolic pathway and started listening to all of the generative energy podcasts twice.

but thing I noticed especially early on when you took listeners question you had so much knowledge about a lot of conditions and possible therapies for those conditions.

You have given a lot of advice through out this board and on podcasts. Have thought about putting all your theory's in a book that is not medical advice because we all know big pharma and doctors know it all.

just your theory on certain medical conditions that certain diets, supplements medicines can help or cure.

It could help save a lot of lives.
 

GreekDemiGod

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I saw this study discussed on Reddit and they are saying this is an argument to support the idea of "slow or fast metabolism" is a myth, and the only reason people between ages 20 - 60. gain weight is caloric surplus
 

FredSonoma

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If the "transhumanist" community were able to understand, even at a basic level the implications of this study and many others like this that are floating around the forum, they would deem Ray as being "trans-human" quite literally, and even a prime example of a "posthuman", not only because Ray uses the CO2 tank on a daily basis, but because his cognitive abilites are -compared to average humans, and also gifted humans- "posthuman".
Do you know how he uses the tank? I heard he mention that he was sitting right next to one once, but not how he actually uses it.
 
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Do you know how he uses the tank? I heard he mention that he was sitting right next to one once, but not how he actually uses it.
Yes, in this interview he describes how he uses it (the video will start in the timemark where he does this):

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=7094&v=De0fXmRnunU&feature=youtu.be


Danny: "Okay, uh... just to follow up one last question, uh... you mentioned you had a tank of carbon dioxide next to you last time we talked, right? and I got like a dozen emails about how specifically you were using it, and so do you want to share that info?"

Ray: "When the weather is so cold I sometimes have to sit at the computer with my legs in a big plastic bag plumped up with carbon dioxide inside and it helps to increase warmness."

Somebody asked in the discussion thread of this interview if anyone knew if Ray has ever explained how to use it more in-depth, and there is this answer:

You need a CO2 tank, a regulator, and a length of plastic hose long enough to reach from the tank to where you are going to sit. If you are not sitting right next to the tank, have a shut off valve at the end of the plastic hose plus another length of hose to reach from the valve down into the bag. Be sure to turn the main valve on the CO2 tank all the way counterclockwise. Set the regulator to 20psi. Step into a large contractor bag, pull it up to your chest area. Tie a bathrobe belt or the like around the top and take a seat. Suck all the air out of the bag with a vacuum cleaner you previously placed next to your chair, then insert the tube and turn on the CO2 flow. The bag should puff up nicely (holes in the bag will prevent puffing up and waste CO2). I keep a spray bottle of water inside the bag to spray on my legs as H2O increases absorption of CO2. A half an hour to an hour in the bag is enough.
I'm not sure if this is how Ray specifically uses it.
 

yerrag

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. This hypothesis has already been corroborated by studies demonstrating that metabolic boosters such as caffeine, aspirin, progesterone, T3, DHEA, pregnenolone, testosterone, DHT, vitamin D, etc are all capable of extending both average and maximum lifespan.
I personally am of the opinion that the use of metabolic boosters are interventions. They may boost metabolism. but they don't really address why the metabolism isn't as high as they think it should be.

When I am sick, my metabolism goes way down. Doesn't this point me to the idea that metabolism is dependent on the general state of health? If say I have a chronic internal bacterial infection, wouldn't the body be diverting some resources towards fighting this infection? And if the body needs to produce more ROS to kill bacteria, wouldn't the NADH/NAD+ ratio increase, and wouldn't theower NAD+/NADH ratio cause lower energy production and lower metabolism?

And wouldn't some sugar also be diverted towards the PPP instead towards oxPhos as NADPH oxidase is needed also to produce ROS?

So if someone would want to increase his metabolism, wouldn't lowering his bacterial load be another way to boost metabolism? But if he were always taking metabolic boosters and not lowering his. bacterial load, wouldn't the bacterial load always be a drag on his metabolism, and wouldn't taking metabolic boosters just simply be a band-aid?

And wouldn't taking metabolic boosters be no different than taking a maintenance drug, sans the prescription slip?

It is very heard to boost our metabolism the natural way though. I find that I have a heart rate that I keep coming back to. At 68. It's far below the 85 I desire. Does this mean that when I get a heart rate of 85 my metabolism has increased? Many would think so, but I don't. It's an illusion when we don't consider heart rate to be a misleading indicator.

For one, the heart may just be more inefficient and needs to make more effort doing the same amount of work. Does the heart rate have to go above 100 for it to count as a bad sign, as it could be tachycardia from too high serum potassium? What if the heart rate is at 85 because the heart as a muscle isn't pumping efficiently because of acid-base imbalances? What if without the acid-base imbalance does not exist and my heart rate goes back to 68? Wouldn't that be a good thing?

To be honest, I have.chronic internal bacterial infection. It is under the radar as it doesn't cause fever. This is what's also called a low-grade infection. Doctors, however, are trained to call it a colonization as they have reserved the use of the word infection for those infections with outward manifestations such as fevers and phlegm and coughs and colds.

I believe that if I can eliminate this colonization, my metabolism would increase. Maybe my normal heart rate would increase from 68, and maybe it would be manifested in thicker hair.

Since I don't trust the use of heart rate alone, I also use the oxygen saturation and perfusion index, which can be measured by newer oximeters, to give me a better idea of my metabolism. If I'm losing weight and my girth is getting smaller without having to fast, that would be a good sign of increase in metabolism.

It's a good idea to compare our vitals to those of children. They are like new houses with new water pipes. The pressure of the shower at the 2nd floor is like that of nice hotels. Compare it to a fixer upper old house where the pipes are filled with scales, and the water from the shower only trickles.

If we. can't keep water pipes from forming scales, I wonder if there's a way to keep our blood vessels from forming plaque. If we could, would be be getting aged as much?
 

Apollo

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One of my fat(obese) friends recently showed his heart rate (using smartphone) while sitting at lunch. His heart rate is about 82- 85 while I'm at 60 beats and very skinny. When I was 16 and exercised more my bpm was around 55.

Myth #1: Skinnier individuals have a higher metabolism.
Some thinner folks appear to eat whatever they want with seemingly no consequence. Surely, they have a faster metabolism than the average Joe, right? Not so fast.
Metabolism actually has quite a bit to do with body size, but not in the way many think. According to Dr. Yoni Freedhoff, assistant professor at the University of Ottawa, "Skinny individuals almost invariably have slower resting metabolisms; there is literally less of them to burn while at rest."
As a result, larger individuals usually have a higher metabolism (that is they burn more calories at rest) than their thinner counterparts.
But don't rejoice just yet. It's not just any additional weight that boosts metabolism. Muscle, in particular, has a huge effect on the amount of overall calories someone burns throughout the day. Comparing two individuals of similar weight, the person with the larger amount of muscle will generally have the faster metabolism.
This is just one of the reasons it's important to pair any weight loss program with a proper strength training plan. Research has found the extra muscle can help accelerate weight loss much faster than a diet-only plan.
Truth: While body size does factor in, body composition has a far greater effect on metabolism.
 
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FredSonoma

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Yes, in this interview he describes how he uses it (the video will start in the timemark where he does this):

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=7094&v=De0fXmRnunU&feature=youtu.be


Danny: "Okay, uh... just to follow up one last question, uh... you mentioned you had a tank of carbon dioxide next to you last time we talked, right? and I got like a dozen emails about how specifically you were using it, and so do you want to share that info?"

Ray: "When the weather is so cold I sometimes have to sit at the computer with my legs in a big plastic bag plumped up with carbon dioxide inside and it helps to increase warmness."

Somebody asked in the discussion thread of this interview if anyone knew if Ray has ever explained how to use it more in-depth, and there is this answer:


I'm not sure if this is how Ray specifically uses it.
Oh wow very interesting, thank you
 

yerrag

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Myth #1: Skinnier individuals have a higher metabolism.
Some thinner folks appear to eat whatever they want with seemingly no consequence. Surely, they have a faster metabolism than the average Joe, right? Not so fast.
Metabolism actually has quite a bit to do with body size, but not in the way many think. According to Dr. Yoni Freedhoff, assistant professor at the University of Ottawa, "Skinny individuals almost invariably have slower resting metabolisms; there is literally less of them to burn while at rest."

He can't draw pull conclusions like that from thin air.

Sure, you can be thin and have low metabolism. And you can be obese and have a higher metabolism. But are talking similar contexts where the difference is merely the rate of metabolism? Have an apples to apples comparison.

One of my fat(obese) friends recently showed his heart rate (using smartphone) while sitting at lunch. His heart rate is about 82- 85 while I'm at 60 beats and very skinny. When I was 16 and exercised more my bpm was around 55.
Have you considered that your heart is more efficient and able to pump more blood per stroke and that it needs to do less pumping to provide enough nutrients to your body, even as your body has a higher demand for them because of your higher metabolism?

And that your friend's heart is less efficient in pumping blood and therefore the heart has to pump more, even though he has a lower metabolism and needs less nutrients?

And I'm only scratching the surface as there are many factors that make one obese? One is poor sugar metabolism, another is poor acid-base balance, and another is poor blood sugar regulation - but both are impacted by poor sugar metabolism as well as affect it in a vicious cycle. Also, acid-base balance is affected by the presence of infections, as the immune system will produce acids in killing bacteria, and if the situation is chronic, the acidic condition will always be there and it will always affect the acid-base balance. And if one is taking prescription drugs, many of these drugs will also affect the acid-base balance.

Even the bacteria themselves can try to change the balance in our body to make the body's metabolism slower so that there will be less energy to fight the infection. A bacteria could produce an enzymes that will disrupt blood sugar regulation, and this will cause blood sugar to not be absorbed and metabolized quickly, and the blood sugar will rise, and this will cause insulin to be produced that signals the liver to convert sugar to fat. That person can develop overweight and obesity in due time.
And if his liver is filled with fats, he won't be able to store enough glycogen, and this will cause him to have low blood sugar conditions, and with that, he needs to produce more cortisol to make sugar out of protein stores. And being chronically high in cortisol will dispose one to have lower immunity, as high cortisol causes the thymus gland to shrink, and the thymus gland is where t-lymphocytes mature. And this will have a great impact on your immune system.

This is just one out of many scenarios of getting dis-eased.
 

Apollo

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He can't draw pull conclusions like that from thin air.

Sure, you can be thin and have low metabolism. And you can be obese and have a higher metabolism. But are talking similar contexts where the difference is merely the rate of metabolism? Have an apples to apples comparison.


Have you considered that your heart is more efficient and able to pump more blood per stroke and that it needs to do less pumping to provide enough nutrients to your body, even as your body has a higher demand for them because of your higher metabolism?

And that your friend's heart is less efficient in pumping blood and therefore the heart has to pump more, even though he has a lower metabolism and needs less nutrients?

And I'm only scratching the surface as there are many factors that make one obese? One is poor sugar metabolism, another is poor acid-base balance, and another is poor blood sugar regulation - but both are impacted by poor sugar metabolism as well as affect it in a vicious cycle. Also, acid-base balance is affected by the presence of infections, as the immune system will produce acids in killing bacteria, and if the situation is chronic, the acidic condition will always be there and it will always affect the acid-base balance. And if one is taking prescription drugs, many of these drugs will also affect the acid-base balance.

Even the bacteria themselves can try to change the balance in our body to make the body's metabolism slower so that there will be less energy to fight the infection. A bacteria could produce an enzymes that will disrupt blood sugar regulation, and this will cause blood sugar to not be absorbed and metabolized quickly, and the blood sugar will rise, and this will cause insulin to be produced that signals the liver to convert sugar to fat. That person can develop overweight and obesity in due time.
And if his liver is filled with fats, he won't be able to store enough glycogen, and this will cause him to have low blood sugar conditions, and with that, he needs to produce more cortisol to make sugar out of protein stores. And being chronically high in cortisol will dispose one to have lower immunity, as high cortisol causes the thymus gland to shrink, and the thymus gland is where t-lymphocytes mature. And this will have a great impact on your immune system.

This is just one out of many scenarios of getting dis-eased.
Actually I think there is a positive correlation between weight , metabolism and heart rate. It makes sense since fat people have to constantly carry more weight and you can often see them breathing heavily after climbing stairs for example. It is obvious that they have elevated heart rate compared to average or skinny person and they almost always have warm hands and effective digestion. Aren't those signs of high metabolism ?
I worked in several companies where managers (males) were overweight people and more often than not, they are very energetic, quick-witted, sanguine and initiative.
While a skinny person may make it upstairs more easily with barely any change in heart rate/breathing they may have impaired digestion and as a consequence slow metabolism. Body is trying to preserve energy by slowing heart rate and other functions.

it is the chicken or the egg question... Is overweight person fat because of high metabolism or high metabolism due to being overweight ? :))
 
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yerrag

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Actually I think there is a positive correlation between weight , metabolism and heart rate. It makes sense since fat people have to constantly carry more weight and you can often see them breathing heavily after climbing stairs for example. It is obvious that they have elevated heart rate compared to average or skinny person and they almost always have warm hands and effective digestion. Aren't those signs of high metabolism ?
No. I will only be repeating what I wrote earlier as a rebuttal.I can only add this: Fat people will make more effort, but higher effort is not what's meant. by higher metabolism.

I'm learning a lot if things from you, though -

- Fat people have warmer hands
-Fat people have effective digestion
-Fat people have higher heart rate
-And because of these reasons, they have higher metabolism.

I will leave you to write Ray Peat to share with him your observations, and he may be convinced.
 

Risingfire

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I saw this study discussed on Reddit and they are saying this is an argument to support the idea of "slow or fast metabolism" is a myth, and the only reason people between ages 20 - 60. gain weight is caloric surplus
Have you ever weighed yourself daily? How can I eat less one day and gain weight and eat more the next day and lose weight? Not saying it works like this every day
 

Apollo

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No. I will only be repeating what I wrote earlier as a rebuttal.I can only add this: Fat people will make more effort, but higher effort is not what's meant. by higher metabolism.

I'm learning a lot if things from you, though -

- Fat people have warmer hands
-Fat people have effective digestion
-Fat people have higher heart rate
-And because of these reasons, they have higher metabolism.

I will leave you to write Ray Peat to share with him your observations, and he may be convinced.
I mean young fat people, under 30 yo, who have been fat /big boned since they were kids. They always have more energy and can easier transform their body into muscled one if they wanted. But pretty often they just grow fatter and fatter and become very obese by 40. :)
 
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