Melatonin And Confusion

[fabiomln]

So, I've been reading Dr. Peat's articles on sleep and light lately and they have me quite confused. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why he thinks we should seek to minimize melatonin levels. Melatonin has been repeatedly shown to inhibit lipid peroxidation, reduce estrogen, increase ATP production, act as a powerful antioxidant, and is inversely associated with cortisol levels.

I agree with jandrade1997 considerations. And in fact, even if I believe in almost everything written by Peat, I do take melatonin ... only 200 mcg, and only before going to sleep at night.
But there is another reason I take melatonin and in a certain way it is told by Peat in http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/stemcells.shtml.
I reports 2 points:
Women's monthly cycles, in which a [glow=red]brief estrogen dominance is followed by sustained exposure to progesterone, are probably an important factor in the renewal of the cells of the brain and other organs[/glow], as well as those of the reproductive organs. [glow=red]The daily rhythms of hormones and metabolism are known to be involved in the regulation of cell renewal[/glow].

Choosing the right foods, the right atmosphere, the right mental and physical activities, [glow=red]and finding the optimal rhythms of light, darkness,[/glow] and activity, can begin to alter the streaming renewal of cells in all the organs. Designing a more perfect environment is going to be much simpler than the schemes of the genetic engineers.


So in my opinion, but I should say in Peat's opinion, an alternance of stress (like night or estrogen) and light (or progesterone) are important for regeneration.
Even plants, in some cases, produce increased germination in the spring, only when in winter the temperature has fallen below certain specific values​​, otherwise the germination is much more reduced.

An italian researcher (Pierpaoli) has done a lot of studies on melatonin. The the mice rejuvenated when receiving melatonin. I think this is the result of the production of new stem cells.
I also have some personal experiences. I tried taking an aspirin before going to bed to reduce stress hormones. The first night I slept fantastically but then on the second night a little worse, the third night even worse and I finally had to stop aspirin. Same happened trying to take pantothenic acid or making 'earthing' (connecting me to the ground in his sleep). After 2 or 3 days the sleep was much worse. My opinion is that the reduction of stress produced by these techniques (aspirina, etc), inhibited the production of stem cells and then inhibited nocturnal regeneration.

 

[j.]

The the mice rejuvenated when receiving melatonin. I think this is the result of the production of new stem cells.

I think Peat mentioned in the 1996 NPR interview that melatonin research on some animals, maybe mice but not completely sure, shouldn't be applied to humans, because melatonin has a different function in those animals.

 

[j.]

So in my opinion, but I should say in Peat's opinion, an alternance of stress (like night or estrogen) and light (or progesterone) are important for regeneration.

You're assuming that the positive feature he wants from darkness is stress, but it could be he mentions darkness for more some reason related to the circadian rhythm. So he might want some darkness due to some positive aspect of it different from stress, whose effect is stronger than the stress effect.

But even assuming he sees stress as the positive aspect of darkness, which I doubt, I think that Peat quote puts more emphasis not that stress or darkness should occur, but that the right balance is not known. That quote gives you no clue as to whether the right balance involves 0,0000000000000001% of stress or darkness or some higher number. Basically he is saying "this should be investigated", not "let's stress the body".

 

[fabiomln]

I think Peat says very clearly that an alternance of stress and absence of stress is important for regeneration when he says: a brief [glow=red]estrogen dominance[/glow] (is) followed by sustained exposure to progesterone, are probably an important factor in the [glow=red]renewal[/glow]of the cells of the brain and other organs.
Surely Peat is not in favor of estrogen, nevertheless he mentions estrogen as a factor in regeneration if followed by progesterone. Having a good sleep could be a factor in regeneration if followed by energy regeneration.
Peat says:
The [glow=red]daily cycling between darkness and light[/glow] is probably an important factor [glow=red]in regulating the birth and differentiation of cells[/glow]. .... Cell renewal requires a [glow=red]rhythmic[/glow]decrease in the exposure to cortisol.
A rhytmic decrease means short period of relatively high cortisol (like for estrogen) followed by lowering levels.

About the mice, the objection was that some type of mice used responded to melatonin producing progesterone. But Pierpaoli has always strongly refuted this objection claiming to have used a different type of mice.

Peat says also: For example, melatonin decreases sharply at puberty when estrogen increases, and then it decreases again at menopause.
So he is telling two things: melatonin decreases at menopause and conseguently estrogen increases.
Well, restoring good level of melatonin could be a factor in keeping good level of estrogen but, what I wish to stress, can be useful for a good sleep in order to guarantee the alternance of night and day, or, if you prefer, the rhythmic decrease in the exposure to cortisol.
Peat says: I suspect that nocturnal sleep has the special function of minimizing the stress of darkness itself,.
Again: In aging, menopause, and various stressful conditions, the increased adrenalin (and the increased cortisol production which is produced by excess adrenalin) causes a tendency to wake more easily, and to have less restful sleep
My idea is that melatonin minimize nocturnal stress allowing a good sleep.
Having not too much stress (but having it) balancing dark stress by melatonin, followed by light can produce regeneration.
Probably this is the function of melatonin: minimizing (not avoiding) the stress of darkness.

 

[Kray]

Fabio, very interesting discussion. I'm not sure I completely understand from these points what a woman who is post-menopausal would be wise to do to improve her sleep and balance the stress hormones other than progesterone at bedtime? Any other helpful ideas, including use of red light therapy at bedtime? Thanks :?

 

[Kray]

I think Peat says very clearly that an alternance of stress and absence of stress is important for regeneration when he says: a brief [glow=red]estrogen dominance[/glow] (is) followed by sustained exposure to progesterone, are probably an important factor in the [glow=red]renewal[/glow]of the cells of the brain and other organs.
Surely Peat is not in favor of estrogen, nevertheless he mentions estrogen as a factor in regeneration if followed by progesterone. Having a good sleep could be a factor in regeneration if followed by energy regeneration.
Peat says:
The [glow=red]daily cycling between darkness and light[/glow] is probably an important factor [glow=red]in regulating the birth and differentiation of cells[/glow]. .... Cell renewal requires a [glow=red]rhythmic[/glow]decrease in the exposure to cortisol.
A rhytmic decrease means short period of relatively high cortisol (like for estrogen) followed by lowering levels.

About the mice, the objection was that some type of mice used responded to melatonin producing progesterone. But Pierpaoli has always strongly refuted this objection claiming to have used a different type of mice.

Peat says also: For example, melatonin decreases sharply at puberty when estrogen increases, and then it decreases again at menopause.
So he is telling two things: melatonin decreases at menopause and conseguently estrogen increases.
Well, restoring good level of melatonin could be a factor in keeping good level of estrogen but, what I wish to stress, can be useful for a good sleep in order to guarantee the alternance of night and day, or, if you prefer, the rhythmic decrease in the exposure to cortisol.
Peat says: I suspect that nocturnal sleep has the special function of minimizing the stress of darkness itself,.
Again: In aging, menopause, and various stressful conditions, the increased adrenalin (and the increased cortisol production which is produced by excess adrenalin) causes a tendency to wake more easily, and to have less restful sleep
My idea is that melatonin minimize nocturnal stress allowing a good sleep.
Having not too much stress (but having it) balancing dark stress by melatonin, followed by light can produce regeneration.
Probably this is the function of melatonin: minimizing (not avoiding) the stress of darkness.

Add- Since you are very well informed, can you give me the bottom line on the need for pregnenolone for a post-meno woman who is doing Peat diet, thyroid, and progest-e? What would be the indication for inclusion of pregnenolone, and how does one establish dosage? Thanks-

 

[Kray]

I think Peat says very clearly that an alternance of stress and absence of stress is important for regeneration when he says: a brief [glow=red]estrogen dominance[/glow] (is) followed by sustained exposure to progesterone, are probably an important factor in the [glow=red]renewal[/glow]of the cells of the brain and other organs.
Surely Peat is not in favor of estrogen, nevertheless he mentions estrogen as a factor in regeneration if followed by progesterone. Having a good sleep could be a factor in regeneration if followed by energy regeneration.
Peat says:
The [glow=red]daily cycling between darkness and light[/glow] is probably an important factor [glow=red]in regulating the birth and differentiation of cells[/glow]. .... Cell renewal requires a [glow=red]rhythmic[/glow]decrease in the exposure to cortisol.
A rhytmic decrease means short period of relatively high cortisol (like for estrogen) followed by lowering levels.

About the mice, the objection was that some type of mice used responded to melatonin producing progesterone. But Pierpaoli has always strongly refuted this objection claiming to have used a different type of mice.

Peat says also: For example, melatonin decreases sharply at puberty when estrogen increases, and then it decreases again at menopause.

So he is telling two things: melatonin decreases at menopause and conseguently estrogen increases.
Well, restoring good level of melatonin could be a factor in keeping good level of estrogen but, what I wish to stress, can be useful for a good sleep in order to guarantee the alternance of night and day, or, if you prefer, the rhythmic decrease in the exposure to cortisol.
Peat says: I suspect that nocturnal sleep has the special function of minimizing the stress of darkness itself,.
Again: In aging, menopause, and various stressful conditions, the increased adrenalin (and the increased cortisol production which is produced by excess adrenalin) causes a tendency to wake more easily, and to have less restful sleep
My idea is that melatonin minimize nocturnal stress allowing a good sleep.
Having not too much stress (but having it) balancing dark stress by melatonin, followed by light can produce regeneration.
Probably this is the function of melatonin: minimizing (not avoiding) the stress of darkness.

I'm not sure what paper of Peat's you referenced from, but from this one about menopause I have another question:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/menopause.shtml

Reading from the last paragraph, "General aging contributes to the specific changes that lead to menopause, but the animal experiments show that fertility can be prolonged to a much greater age by preventing excitotoxic exhaustion of the hypothalamic nerves. The question that still needs to be more clearly answered is, to what extent can general aging be prevented or delayed by protecting against the excitotoxins? Minimizing estrogen (and cortisone) with optimal thyroid activity, and maximizing pregnenolone and progesterone to prevent excitotoxic cell fatigue, can be done easily. A diet low in iron and unsaturated fats protects the respiratory apparatus from the damaging effects of excessive excitation, and--since pregnenolone is formed in the mitochondrion--also helps to prevent the loss of these hormones."

This paper was written in 1997; it seems strange that he emphasizes that unsaturated fats protect from the damaging effects of (excess) estrogen (along with low iron diet). Unless I don't understand what he means here, it seems he is saying that saturated fats are not desirable. Hmmm.

 

[j.]

I think the word "low" applies to both iron and unsaturated fats. So he wants "low" unsaturated fats.

 

[Kray]

I think the word "low" applies to both iron and unsaturated fats. So he wants "low" unsaturated fats.

Ah, my oversight. And I thought I was on to something, although I would be more worried right about now if it were the former! Thanks for the quick boot.

 

[ddjd]

doesnt melatonin increase Nitric oxide?