Meat+OJ+Fasting——I Challenge Anyone Not Feeling Optimal On This

[YamnayaMommy]

My understanding: Lipolysis is activated by adrenalin and cortisol. You may burn some fat, but cortisol will break down lean mass to produce glucose.

My understanding: Lipolysis is activated by adrenalin and cortisol. You may burn some fat, but cortisol will break down lean mass to produce glucose.

Is there any evidence that an 18 hour fast—when nutrition is good, when there’s available fat mass, and calories unrestricted during eating window—causes body to break down lean mass?

I just don’t believe 1) that research showing damage of longer casts can be applied to a shortened daily eating window, and 2) that we need to be eating all day long to optimize our metabolism.

 

[Shin]

Is there any evidence that an 18 hour fast—when nutrition is good, when there’s available fat mass, and calories unrestricted during eating window—causes body to break down lean mass?

I just don’t believe 1) that research showing damage of longer casts can be applied to a shortened daily eating window, and 2) that we need to be eating all day long to optimize our metabolism.

There is no evidence for this at all.
I think in studies muscle break down occured after 54 hours of not eating.

 

[Waynish]

It'll have to be quality non-acidic OJ though... Probably only fresh squeezed.

 

[boris]

There is no evidence for this at all.
I think in studies muscle break down occured after 54 hours of not eating.

It depends on your liver function. Breakdown of lean mass should occur when glycogen stores are depleted. For a healthy liver that is more or less 24h (maybe even 48h? I don't remember, but it would correlate with the study you reffered to).

For hypothyroid people though it's maybe a few hours. For me it feels like about 2-3 hours.

 

[CDT]

Jesus, do yall know about food combinations? DO NOT consume OJ with meat in ANY circumstance. It will putrefy in your gut.

 

[ecstatichamster]

It depends on your liver function. Breakdown of lean mass should occur when glycogen stores are depleted. For a healthy liver that is more or less 24h (maybe even 48h? I don't remember, but it would correlate with the study you reffered to).

For hypothyroid people though it's maybe a few hours. For me it feels like about 2-3 hours.

yes. Me too.

 

[ExCarniv]

Jesus, do yall know about food combinations? DO NOT consume OJ with meat in ANY circumstance. It will putrefy in your gut.

Source of this claim?

 

[ecstatichamster]

We’ve had an invasion of IFing faddists here on RPF.

Dr. Peat has explained quite well about the dangers of fasting. Of course it takes a year or two to catch up with you.

I’m not going to put more studies about this. It is wasted.

Many of use used to do IFing and we feel that it was one thing that really messed us up. Dr. Peat has said in reference to it that your liver gets cleaned and everything else gets really screwed up from the constant onslaught of free fatty acids and high cortisol. If you understand elementary biochemistry this makes total sense.

During IFing you are digesting protein from lean mass. Cortisol is chronically elevated. Free fatty acids cause insulin resistance and if they are PUFAs they destroy sensitive tissues such as beta cells, thymus and Leydig cells.

All on deaf ears here.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

We’ve had an invasion of IFing faddists here on RPF.

Dr. Peat has explained quite well about the dangers of fasting. Of course it takes a year or two to catch up with you.

I’m not going to put more studies about this. It is wasted.

Many of use used to do IFing and we feel that it was one thing that really messed us up. Dr. Peat has said in reference to it that your liver gets cleaned and everything else gets really screwed up from the constant onslaught of free fatty acids and high cortisol. If you understand elementary biochemistry this makes total sense.

During IFing you are digesting protein from lean mass. Cortisol is chronically elevated. Free fatty acids cause insulin resistance and if they are PUFAs they destroy sensitive tissues such as beta cells, thymus and Leydig cells.

All on deaf ears here.

If you’re elderly and diabetic maybe IF is bad, but if you’re in your twenties or thirties and metabolically healthy, IF is a really simple means of achieving appetite correction and fat loss. And randomized control experimentation on healthy young adults shows this. That’s why the female fasters in that eight week gained more lean mass and lost more fat mass than the control group that was eating all day. And that’s why IF has been popular in the body building community for almost two decade (“leans gains”). And it’s also why longevity experts like David Sinclair recommend IF to slow cell aging.

Look, no one is insisting that IF will solve your problems. (Although I suspect that if you gave real IF [no calories or flavors during your fast] a try you would have better results.) but it’s silly for you to make blanket statements about IF leading to lean muscle loss and blah FFA blah, when clearly that does not happen during a 16 hour fast in healthy people who just want to lean out a little.

I feel obliged to post this because there are lots of people—younger and healthier and more motivated to lean out than you— lurking on this forum who want information about how to be healthy and lean. Being fat is unhealthy, and also demoralizing because you’re physically repellent. losing fat is desirable, even if it means theoretically releasing lots of FFA temporarily (just take vitamin e or whatever), because being lean is so healthful and hedonic.

Many people can effectively combine RP dietary guidelines and IF to get really healthy and lean. I’m doing it as a super-stressed-out mom with three babies. The one think in my life that is awesome right now is my body composition. I’m steadily losing the fat deposition leftover from last pregnancy and apparently keeping muscle (workouts are better and no visible muscle loss). I know people in real life and read anecdotally online about people doing this, including on this forum.

That one anti-macros-combining guy that you faddishly glommed on to a while ago was doing it, he just didn’t use the label IF.

You know you want to give clean fasting a try!

 

[boris]

I think it is already established around here that the benefits of fasting in experiments is a result of lowering endotoxin and anti metabolic "foods". Skip the junk and eat peaty and you will have the same benefits without starving and the accompanying problems you just mentionend like FFA release etc.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I think it is already established around here that the benefits of fasting in experiments is a result of lowering endotoxin and anti metabolic "foods". Skip the junk and eat peaty and you will have the same benefits without starving and the accompanying problems you just mentionend like FFA release etc.

I got the impression that fat gain on a peaty diet was de rigueur.

 

[boris]

Idk why. Maybe lots of people jump right into it eating tons of full fat cheese, drinking gallons of whole milk while Peat recommends skim and a super low fat diet in general.

 

[LLight]

I think it is already established around here that the benefits of fasting in experiments is a result of lowering endotoxin and anti metabolic "foods". Skip the junk and eat peaty and you will have the same benefits without starving and the accompanying problems you just mentionend like FFA release etc.

If I'm not mistaken, Time Restricted Feeding was shown to improve circadian rythmes. Intermittent fasting does not change what you eat but when you eat, it should not influence too much things such as endotoxin or antinutrients/antimetabolic foods (except if you admit that TRF/IF improve digestion).

 

[ecstatichamster]

I gained weight on Peat type diet because I ate lots of fat and lots of sugar when I started.

Probably was necessary. I was coming from a keto life and I had poor thyroid function and constantly felt bad, low energy.

My energy levels are really good today.

Fat loss Uber alles is a terrible mistake.

I did IF “perfectly” when I did it for several years, eating NOTHING for 16 or 18 hours. It messed me up even more and I never lost fat from it. I always marveled at the fact that I did not.

I think the fact is if you are in your 20s and 30s and are actually healthy you can do a lot of things you can’t do if you have a fatty liver and low thyroid. That doesn’t make it good. It just means you can get away with a lot. I have someone working for me who was in the military and he went through frightfully terrible times in his 20s, but it was okay. That’s why they have soldiers in their teens and 20s. It doesn’t make it healthy to march for 2 days without sleep, it just means it’s possible, for example.

 

[YamnayaMommy]

I gained weight on Peat type diet because I ate lots of fat and lots of sugar when I started.

Probably was necessary. I was coming from a keto life and I had poor thyroid function and constantly felt bad, low energy.

My energy levels are really good today.

Fat loss Uber alles is a terrible mistake.

I did IF “perfectly” when I did it for several years, eating NOTHING for 16 or 18 hours. It messed me up even more and I never lost fat from it. I always marveled at the fact that I did not.

I think the fact is if you are in your 20s and 30s and are actually healthy you can do a lot of things you can’t do if you have a fatty liver and low thyroid. That doesn’t make it good. It just means you can get away with a lot. I have someone working for me who was in the military and he went through frightfully terrible times in his 20s, but it was okay. That’s why they have soldiers in their teens and 20s. It doesn’t make it healthy to march for 2 days without sleep, it just means it’s possible, for example.

My bad, I thought you said you did broth or juice during the fast, but maybe I’m thinking of someone else. Sorry it didn’t work for you!

Yes to fat loss Uber alles. Unless you’re pregnant or are a baby, it’s hard to imagine a justification for being fat.

If someone proved that all the theoretical objections to IF were correct and that eating high quality food with abundant protein in an eight hour window, all in the context of a healthy, active lifestyle, was bad, I might have to drop it. But I’d be sad about it because it’s really nice to not have to deal with food for 16 hours of the day.

 

[ecstatichamster]

My bad, I thought you said you did broth or juice during the fast, but maybe I’m thinking of someone else. Sorry it didn’t work for you!

Yes to fat loss Uber alles. Unless you’re pregnant or are a baby, it’s hard to imagine a justification for being fat.

If someone proved that all the theoretical objections to IF were correct and that eating high quality food with abundant protein in an eight hour window, all in the context of a healthy, active lifestyle, was bad, I might have to drop it. But I’d be sad about it because it’s really nice to not have to deal with food for 16 hours of the day.

It is very harmful. Not theoretically. For real. You can get away with it for awhile.

Since this is a forum around Dr. Peat’s work, I don’t feel bad for attacking that particular lifestyle choice.

Free fatty acids should be kept as low as possible, along with cortisol. I think fasting and keto gave me a fatty liver. I’m sure of it. I’d love to lose the liver fat.

Fat on the body, not sure it’s bad. I think it is good. Dr. Peat has said a BMI of 25 - 30 is probably most healthful. Just because someone looks fatter doesn’t mean they aren’t healthy.

There have been no convincing arguments against the fact that people who are heavier tend to live longer. There are a few people who live to 105 and they aren’t fat. But many people seem to need some fat for whatever reason. Putting fat over everything else is a terrible mistake. Health should come first.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Iron + Vitamin C, increase iron absorption, not good.

This only happens in single meal challenge studies with added iron. Vitamin C doesn't have any effect on heme iron, and may not even increase natural non-heme iron.

Here's a long term study (16 weeks) that showed Vitamin C with meals did not necessarily increase iron absorption. In fact, it appeared to lower iron stores in some high-normal iron subjects, some dramatically-

effect of high ascorbic acid supplementation on body iron stores | Blood | American Society of Hematology

 

[boris]

I think Peats problem with Vitamin C in combination with iron isn't necesseraily only about absorption anymore. He says Vitamin C can turn iron and copper into a dangerous reduced form. Dr. Ray Peat, Ph.D - Vitamin D, Thyroid, Evolving Consciously and Much More -August 20, 2019 - One Radio Network after 21:40

 

[YamnayaMommy]

It is very harmful. Not theoretically. For real. You can get away with it for awhile.

Since this is a forum around Dr. Peat’s work, I don’t feel bad for attacking that particular lifestyle choice.

Free fatty acids should be kept as low as possible, along with cortisol. I think fasting and keto gave me a fatty liver. I’m sure of it. I’d love to lose the liver fat.

Fat on the body, not sure it’s bad. I think it is good. Dr. Peat has said a BMI of 25 - 30 is probably most healthful. Just because someone looks fatter doesn’t mean they aren’t healthy.

There have been no convincing arguments against the fact that people who are heavier tend to live longer. There are a few people who live to 105 and they aren’t fat. But many people seem to need some fat for whatever reason. Putting fat over everything else is a terrible mistake. Health should come first.

I am enthusiastically supportive of attacking lifestyle choices, including IF.

I haven’t heard Ray Peat discuss differences between different intervals of fasting. Presumably the concerns he raises about 24 hr + fasting, where glycogen store are probably depleted, do not apply to 16hr fasts.

I’m pretty sure having a high proportion of lean mass to body fat correlates with longevity, but I don’t feel like looking it up. There’s no way a BMI of 25-30 is optimal, especially for men. Where does Ray Peat say that? He certainly isn’t that fat.

Here’s a 2012 rodent study that compared an ad libitum high fat diet and a time restricted eating high fat diet, where the time restricted group did way better than the ad lib group. Both groups ate the same amount of calories yet only the fasting mice avoided obesity and disease.

Time restricted feeding without reducing caloric intake prevents metabolic diseases in mice fed a high fat diet

Summary:
While diet-induced obesity has been exclusively attributed to increased caloric intake from fat, animals fed high fat diet (HFD) ad libitum (ad lib) eat frequently throughout day and night disrupting the normal feeding cycle. To test whether obesity and metabolic diseases result from HFD or disruption of metabolic cycles, we subjected mice to either ad lib or time restricted feeding (tRF) of a HFD for 8 h/day. Mice under tRF consume equivalent calories from HFD as those with ad libaccess, yet are protected against obesity, hyperinsulinemia, hepatic steatosis, inflammation, and have improved motor coordination. The tRF regimen improved CREB, mTOR and AMPK pathway function and oscillations of the circadian clock and their target genes' expression. These changes in catabolic and anabolic pathways altered liver metabolome, improved nutrient utilization and energy expenditure. We demonstrate in mice that tRF regimen is a non-pharmacological strategy against obesity and associated diseases.

 

[tankasnowgod]

And that’s why IF has been popular in the body building community for almost two decade (“leans gains”). And it’s also why longevity experts like David Sinclair recommend IF to slow cell aging.

I wouldn't trust anything that David Sinclair says. He scammed Glaxo out of $700 Million with his bogus research. The only thing I would call him an expert at is stealing hundreds of millions from questionable drug companies, and somehow staying alive. In that area, he appears to have no equal.

EDIT- Any so called "Longeity Expert" really doesn't have any proof that what they are suggesting would increase longevity in humans. The only experiments they can point to are those done on animals in captivity and forced to eat a certain diet. Doesn't imply that animals in the wild would get the same result. And alternative explanations (such as low iron, heavy metals, PUFA, protein in general, aminos like tryptophan and methionine) suggest that restrictions of these elements provide the real benefit, not necessarily the overall calorie restriction.

Previous "Longevity Experts" don't have a great track record. Bernarr MacFadden, a staunch advocate of fasting, died at 87. Roy Walford, proponent of Calorie Restriction and author of "The 120 Year Diet" died at 79. If the so-called "experts" can't get their diets to work, what hope is there for their followers?

I don't even know how anyone could do anything but laugh at someone in their 40s, 50s, 60s or 70s that is labeled a "longevity expert." Like, they are still well under the average lifespan.