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Meat + Citrus Is Good For Digestion But Meat + White Rice Is Good For Getting Jacked?(Vertical Diet)

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This post references the "Vertical Diet" by Stan Efferding. It's a way to eat for physical performance (not necessarily longevity) that has many great testimonies.
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Anecdotally I've found that eating meat and then following it with pineapple, orange, or lemon juice... Or eating it with canned tomatoes will make digestion of meat feel effortless---

To the contrary, every time I've ever combined appreciable amounts of meat and starch at the same meal, it has given me autoimmune (psoriasis) grief and more or less wrecked my digestion for 1-2 days.

Yet there are so many professional athletes in virtually all categories of sport (except endurance stuff I noticed) who purport amazing benefit from eating red meat + white rice as a primary staple for 3-5 meals out of the day.

The best hypothesis I can think of is that there's a certain threshold of digestive integrity that we all have... And when that threshold is high enough (and there's enough stored micronutrients/vitamins/minerals, etc onboard), it benefits us to have meat and starch together regularly... But if we're below that digestive threshold, we'll suffer consequences.

What gives?
 

Jessie

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Starch increases insulin more than citrus, so this is likely why bodybuilders and company prefer starch. Insulin is really important for building muscles, in fact many bodybuilders will just inject insulin.
 

snacks

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I think whatever benefits come from eating like this just come from the relatively easy digestion that comes with eating the same thing day in and day out. I'll eat rice and steak on heavy lifting days or sprinting days but never together as this seems to upset my stomach. I wouldn't pay too much attention to elite athlete diets because they pretty much all follow fads or it's like Arnold's bodybuilding manual where he lifts/eats NOTHING like he suggests other lift and eat
 

gaze

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If rice is fresh cooked it’s pretty easy to digest. Leftover rice higher in resistant starch may cause some problems with bacteria
 

PaRa

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Starch increases insulin more than citrus, so this is likely why bodybuilders and company prefer starch. Insulin is really important for building muscles, in fact many bodybuilders will just inject insulin.

white rice is one of the easier to digest and low allergenic starch source, cheap and easy to eat and prepare
It has nothing to do with the insulin effect per se, it’s because starch is pure glucose, so it fuels MUSCLE glycogen way better than sucrose that is separated between liver and muscles.

IME Without starch it’s better on the digestion but when working out pumps and medium endurance are worse, like it’s ok for 1-5 reps and 15-20+ reps but the 6-12 reps zone sucks, maybe I have to adapt to the no starch
Will see how it is for sprint sessions (60-150meters)

I’d don’t know if it is ok for the liver to go up to 500g carbs Or more only with sucrose sources (fruits, Fruits juices milk honey), it’s a lot for the liver I think...

anyone having success with bodybuilding routines and no starches ?
 

Twohandsondeck

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IME Without starch it’s better on the digestion but when working out pumps and medium endurance are worse, like it’s ok for 1-5 reps and 15-20+ reps but the 6-12 reps zone sucks, maybe I have to adapt to the no starch

That's an interesting observation. Makes sense to me when I think about it like this:
1-5 reps is for strength
8-12 reps is for hypertrophy
15+ reps is for... Prehab/rehab/recovery... Unless you're just blowing yourself up on an extended 8-12 rep weight

If the mid-rep range is what gives the greatest increase and demand on the surface area of the muscle relative to the demand on the nervous system, then that would explain why pre-formed glycogen (starch) would be ideal.
 

Jessie

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I tend to do okay on a very low starch diet despite working out, but I tend to pace myself, and I'm not really looking for a "jacked" figure. I'm more or less just doing it for health. But I seem to do fine with just sugar, I have like 2-3 recovery days between each workout. Most of my stuff is pushups, situps, and squats. I don't obsess over reps, I just go until failure. My sets are usually fairly consistent, around 5-6. I'm pretty gassed afterwards. I don't bother with weights typically, or cardio.
 

jet9

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I think whatever benefits come from eating like this just come from the relatively easy digestion that comes with eating the same thing day in and day out. I'll eat rice and steak on heavy lifting days or sprinting days but never together as this seems to upset my stomach. I wouldn't pay too much attention to elite athlete diets because they pretty much all follow fads or it's like Arnold's bodybuilding manual where he lifts/eats NOTHING like he suggests other lift and eat
So you find it benificial to have starches separated from meats/proteins?
Could you describe how your starch meals look like? Do you do mostly rice or also potatoes ?
 

baccheion

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Sweet fruits, rice, potatoes, etc favor alkaline digestion. Sour fruits, milk, and cooked meat are acidic digestion. Tend to not fare well combined. Raw meat, raw egg yolks, raw milk, greens, high fat cheese, olive/coconut oil, butter, etc are neutral.
 

snacks

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So you find it benificial to have starches separated from meats/proteins?
Could you describe how your starch meals look like? Do you do mostly rice or also potatoes ?

I'll eat rice with ghee, salt and garlic. Or sometimes rice with lemon and butter or just rice and coconut oil. I'll eat sweet potatoes every now and again with butter and cinnamon. I used to eat potatoes a lot but I feel like throwing up (and occasionally do) when I eat them and whichever end it comes out of it looks almost entirely undigested. I think i'm just intolerant to them since like I said sweet potatoes and yams are just fine. As far as separation, yes I think it is beneficial
 

Twohandsondeck

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Maybe you just don't know about The Athletes Who Train With Soda?

I'm not subbed to the WSJ, just got to the 100-mile triathlete that drinks 3-4 cans of coke per week.

I know in endurance sports the U-can slow-digesting corn starch product has been advertised and many endurance athletes use carb gels and essential amino acids during their treks, but the comparative amounts of carb intakes are really small compared to athletes training for power.

To use the example of a triathlete who drinks 150-200g of either cane sugar or high fructose corn syrup throughout an entire week... Lol what? Most members on this forum consume more carbohydrate than that on any given sedentary day.

Anyhow, I'll add this post-workout drink that Efferding put forth:

25g fructose
50g dextrose
100mg caffeine
600mg sodium
White rice + sugar or honey OR rice powder or fruit

The idea is that combining different types of sugar (glucose, fructose, dextrose, galactose, etc) with salt and caffeine compounds the muscle glycogen restoration effect.

I've been using something that looks like:
1/4 teaspoon of Morton's pickling salt
2 tablespoons honey
1 cup milk
1 cup orange or pineapple juice
2.5g creatine
Plus some coffee if I happen to have some lying around

Dude it's like a second wind in a bottle. A real mental wake-up call. Hard to put to words but ridiculously effective. Goes a long way towards giving the energy for a quality second workout later in the day.
 

salotz

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I'm not subbed to the WSJ, just got to the 100-mile triathlete that drinks 3-4 cans of coke per week.

I know in endurance sports the U-can slow-digesting corn starch product has been advertised and many endurance athletes use carb gels and essential amino acids during their treks, but the comparative amounts of carb intakes are really small compared to athletes training for power.

To use the example of a triathlete who drinks 150-200g of either cane sugar or high fructose corn syrup throughout an entire week... Lol what? Most members on this forum consume more carbohydrate than that on any given sedentary day.

Anyhow, I'll add this post-workout drink that Efferding put forth:

25g fructose
50g dextrose
100mg caffeine
600mg sodium
White rice + sugar or honey OR rice powder or fruit

The idea is that combining different types of sugar (glucose, fructose, dextrose, galactose, etc) with salt and caffeine compounds the muscle glycogen restoration effect.

I've been using something that looks like:
1/4 teaspoon of Morton's pickling salt
2 tablespoons honey
1 cup milk
1 cup orange or pineapple juice
2.5g creatine
Plus some coffee if I happen to have some lying around

Dude it's like a second wind in a bottle. A real mental wake-up call. Hard to put to words but ridiculously effective. Goes a long way towards giving the energy for a quality second workout later in the day.
According to what he said in an interview having different sugars helps with gut absorption (which makes sense due to osmotic potentials) as well as total flux through the different conversion pathways which makes sense since they are all going to get saturated at some point. They actually (somehow) had this actually measured in a lab for some crossfit athletes who couldn't recover.

I wonder then if there is some wisdom behind the humble horchata? I also had a similar corn version in Nicaragua which was very refreshing. Another similar drink was one in China where they grind up the sugar cane right in front of you and make a drink.
 

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