Matt Stone Vs Ray Peat (Overeating VS Eating Without Gaining)

[yoshiesque]

Matt Stone has been saying that it is okay to eat more than what your metabolism needs. And that weight gain will occur but at some point it will stop and go down, as metabolism gets better. I have not seen this happen to me thats for sure.

Ray Peat (well Mittir said this but im sure its RP too) says that u should not be gaining weight but rather, eating the amount of calories ur metabolism demands, and over time that demand will increase, and so will your calorie consumption.

thoughts?

 

[Brian]

When I was doing epic low-fat/high-carb feasts I found it very hard to over eat. Eating much over 3000 calories is tough when fat is low. Although I did aim to be in the 3500-4000 range consistently.

At first I thought I was gaining fat, but I later realized it almost all was water weight because my estrogen was still high. As my digestion became better and with other tools like raw carrots and supplemental fat solubles my estrogen came down and all the weight I thought was fat disappeared very quickly.

I disagree with Matt Stone's Eat for Heat on some major points. I think he should be more careful about the amount of fat he implies is OK for someone embarking on a big increase in calories to recover from under-eating. He lists things like half and half and high fat dairy as something to increase calorie density. Maybe those might be more important to include for someone who is near death from severe anorexia, but personally I received much more benefit by sticking to much lower fat while stuffing carbs down all day e'ry day, plus small amounts of coconut oil.

I noticed that eating a lot of rice when my digestion was still weak would make me gain a lot of water weight quickly, probably from serotonin production and interfering with estrogen excretion. But as my digestion improved I would no longer get those effects from eating a mountain of rice.

I also acknowledge that the carb starch/sugar feasting might not be the best idea for someone older who has been running on stress hormones for decades. I can't speculate exactly why, but it would make sense that it might be too stressful for them and make it a net negative for their health. I don't know if this is true, just a thought.

 

[EIRE24]

I'm looking forward to seeing more people's responses to Matt Stones view on metabolism and healing compared to what Ray Peat reccomends. I agree with Brian on this one. I don't agree with the carbs for someone older running on stress wouldn't help, I think it would. That's just my opinion.

 

[Brian]

I don't agree with the carbs for someone older running on stress wouldn't help, I think it would. That's just my opinion.

I'm not saying they shouldn't eat carbs, but I'm just not sure that someone older should try to pound them like I did at over 800 grams per day. In order to eat that much it usually took me four big feasts per day. I wouldn't necessarily recommend this to everyone anyways. But I would think someone older might have an especially bad reaction to trying that. It's probably best to gradually increase a little every week in their case if they want to go that route.

 

[EIRE24]

I don't agree with the carbs for someone older running on stress wouldn't help, I think it would. That's just my opinion.

I'm not saying they shouldn't eat carbs, but I'm just not sure that someone older should try to pound them like I did at over 800 grams per day. In order to eat that much it usually took me four big feasts per day. I wouldn't necessarily recommend this to everyone anyways. But I would think someone older might have an especially bad reaction to trying that. It's probably best to gradually increase a little every week in their case if they want to go that route.

Sorry Brian, I seem to have taken what you said out of context. I think and know in my situation that eating that many carbs can be extremely helpful. Did you find carbs in general or more sugar than starch?

 

[Brian]

My body and taste buds preferred starch much more than sucrose/fructose. My favorite meal was 6 small potatoes boiled on high for 40-50 minutes. It turns into nearly pure glucose and gives me a euphoric high and they digest perfectly. I don't get that same effect when I simply steam or fry potatoes at a lower heat.

I also like to wash starch down with some grape, apple, orange juice, or some low fat milk.

Other meals I liked were homemade pancakes with honey or jam, sugary cocoa rice cereal, or pasta with some low-fat sauce.

Eating dense, refined starch and sugar like this was the only way I could eat that many carbs consistently.

I used this way of eating as a tool for about a year. Now I eat a little less and a lot more fat.

 

[Amazoniac]

Brian, I think the difference that you noticed in digestion of the starch has to do with the water involved in boiling rather than temperature, because it's higher in both steaming and frying (even at the lowest setting)..

 

[Brian]

I think the difference is that surface area contact is higher in boiling water and I'm also able to cook for longer if I keep the water level high. When I boil at a lower temperature for the same amount of time the starch breaks apart into smaller pieces, but the individual cells haven't been broken down nearly as well and it doesn't digest nearly as well.

So even though steaming and frying are much higher heat, in the case of potatoes they don't seem to penetrate individual cells as much. A pressure cooker would be the best of both steam and boiling water, right?

 

[sctb]

My favorite meal was 6 small potatoes boiled on high for 40-50 minutes. It turns into nearly pure glucose and gives me a euphoric high and they digest perfectly. I don't get that same effect when I simply steam or fry potatoes at a lower heat.

Boiling food is cooking at a lower temperature, since liquid
water will only reach 100C. Both steaming and frying will cook at
a higher temperature.

I apologize for the nitpick, and I don't doubt that you observed a
difference in these cooking methods, but it's not because of a
higher temperature associated with boiling.

Cheers,

Scott

 

[tara]

I'm interested in your question too.

800 g of carbs is pretty impressive!

I don't know if Mittir got that opinion from Peat or not - I have not seen Peat say it or anyone quote him as saying it, but that doesn't mean he hasn't. I'd like to know what his view is.

Theoretically it seems to me that it might depend on which original cause(s) and/or the current limiting factor(s) are responsible for keeping base metabolism lower than optimal. What follows is just my speculation based on theory, not something I think is established.

If the reason for slow metabolism is simply adaptation to insufficient food (calorie) supply in the past, then maybe the body won't increase again until it is confident of a sustained larger food supply. If this is the case, then maybe eating consistently above current maintenance may be necessary to encourage metabolism to increase. According to the stories here and on Matt Stone's old site, this seems to often (but not always) result in significant fat gain, as you say, along with increasing metabolism and recovery of various systems. Whether this fat gain is temporary or long-term, major or minor probably depends on various other factors too - eg which particular adaptations did the particular person make to handle the energy deficiency?

If the causes are insufficiency in protein, vitamins, minerals, etc, then maybe restoring them to adequate levels is the key to widening the energy bottleneck.

If the main causes are poisoning by PUFAs, estrogen, and other substances, then maybe other tactics are more important to help remove the blocks on cellular energy production, and maybe then one can gradually increase energy intake in step with increasing metabolism, restoration of systems, and resultant increase in energy demand, and not gain much extra fat in the process (unless one was underfat in the first place). So maybe in some cases, the many tactics Peat recommends may be enough - switching to low PUFA, adequate protein, sugar and micronutrients, the raw carrot, balanced amino acids, avoiding allergens, gut irritants, and excessive endotoxin production, supporting bowel motility if necessary, etc.

If the main initial cause was undereating, but it has been prolonged or severe enough to cause enduring change of function or actual damage to systems, rather than just transient down-regulation, then maybe other tactics are needed to address those issues too.

For people who have been really severely undereating - diagnosably anorexic, etc, then I don't think there is any way around eating more than current metabolism demands, and the risk of gaining even large amounts of fat is a lesser evil, health-wise, than continuing to starve.

For people who are young, and or who have had only short-term metabolic suppression, getting energy up may sometimes be simple. But the odds are many of us will have more than one contributing cause, and need more than one tactic to recover optimally.

I'll stick my own experience in separate post.

 

[taylor108]

Brian, your experience is very interesting. Do you mind sharing the reason behind your 800 g carb feasts? Were you trying to build your metabolism back up?

 

[Brian]

Brian, your experience is very interesting. Do you mind sharing the reason behind your 800 g carb feasts? Were you trying to build your metabolism back up?

Yep, I was trying to increase metabolism after about 5 years of stressed-out-college-under-eating and a couple years of Sisson-induced-carbophobia.

800 grams is hard to hit. Most days were probably between 650-750. It felt necessary in my case and I'm glad I did. There may have been another way to recover, but I'm satisfied with the results. It was also good for undoing some internet inspired orthorexia.

I started out with low animal protein and gradually increased it. I always ate lots of potatoes, which feel like even better protein than milk to me, so I was never worried about not getting enough.

 

[tara]

My background was long-term
high starch,
restricted milk, cheese, butter, sugar (including fruit), wheat/gluten,
variable protein and calories - some times too low, but never extremely low,
moderate to high PUFA (to avoid butter).

My key issue for decades has been migraines, but also low energy, feeling chronically tired and stressed, poor concentration, etc, intermittently foggy-headed (associated with dairy I think), and prone to low sugar crashes (extreme stress and shakiness, followed by slumps).

My weight had fluctuated over the years, but generally in the upper half of the so-called 'ideal' BMI. The older I got, the more of that was in the little pot belly. I have not done explicit calorie restriction, but I have restricted particular common foods on the basis of thinking I reacted badly to them, and this has sometimes resulted in under-eating.

My first stop 3 yrs ago was Buteyko, with little attention to diet.

I found a little info about Peat 2 or 3 years ago, tried drinking lots of OJ and milk, failed, and dropped it.

Then I stumbled on GAPS, cooked bone-broths etc and ate lots of meat, yogurt and sour cream for a month or two, reduced starches but never eliminated them for more than a few days.

Read Matt Stone's blog, noticed I was pretty skinny (seeing too many ribs, not feeling solid enough), ate lots for several months, including all the foods I had restricted. Gained at least 10 kg (I found later that my scales were becoming increasingly miscallibrated), had lots more energy, but no help with brain fog or migraines.

Read some RBTI. Tested SpH, UpH, conductivity, refractivity for months but never figured out how to get reagents for the nitrogen tests. Sugars varied wildly - could be both too high and too low. Tried to figure out appropriate diet from what I read. Tried to eat mostly morning and midday, little snacking, light dinner. Distilled water and drank it to the clock, tried sweetened lemon water on the clock too. Couldn't get consultant support without full test readings. Took lots of supplements, incl. different forms of calcium, mincol, seaweed. Learned some useful things, gained some benefits, was amazed that I could sleep through the night on a light dinner and and little or no supper. But no help with migraines, couldn't reliably manage to eat enough in the morning hours to fuel me adequately for the day for logistical reasons, no idea how to proceed. Over several months, I lost all the weight I'd gained the previous few months, could see too many ribs again, and was losing energy again.

Somewhere in there I read Gwyneth Olwyn's Youreatopia site. Started thinking that though I'd never been anorexic, I might well have had significant periods of under-eating from childhood on, and that that could have been at least partly responsible for my health issues.

Lastly, started reading Peat in earnest.
So while I've been gradually implementing more and more of Peat's ideas, I was also mindful of Gwyneth's thoughts on undereating, and the calorie levels she considers normal.
Last year I took on the mission of avoiding low sugar crashes, mostly by being really rigorous (and successful) about eating to appetite. I'm not anorexic - my appetite is pretty good at telling me to eat, except when migraine process etc is interfering. Sometimes I've been accidentally eating beyond appetite.
Last year I gained about 15 kg (somewhere in there I got new scales), this year I've maintained that and been weight-stable, now in the so-called 'overweight category (just marginally above the low-mortality trough in the mortality/BMI graphs I've seen), with now calorie restriction. Towards the end of last year I experimented with a little cyproheptadine. I don't know if the weight gain would have stopped earlier without that.A lot of the extra weight is fat, but some of it certainly feels like muscle, and I'm hoping there has also been improvement in other organs.
I spend a lot less time feeling like I'm going to fall asleep at work, etc. But I seem to have less capacity to push myself and run on stress hormones.

Over the last few years I've had a succession of joint and tendon injuries, some of which took ages to heal. Last year, a combination of injuries, frequent migraines, and life situation meant I got relatively little deliberate exercise.
My old, slow-healing injuries recovered last year. I put it down to overeating and being sedentary, as well as really focussing on meeting all my other nutritional requirements.

I don't know if I could have got all the gains I have by trying to address other metabolic bottlenecks while restricting calories to maintenance. I suspect that because I had rebuilding and repair to do, and because I have a history of periods of undereating, some fat gain may have been inevitable. I'm around fifty and female, along with whatever else is going on, and I think less likely to be able to do anabolism without fat-gain than young fit men. I figure my current fat is not enough to cause me any obvious health problems (other than slowing me down when I go up-hill). The odds are it will gradually decline during old age, because that's what usually happens. I'll be pleased if it goes down a little and I get a bit fitter before then, but I'll be prioritising overall health, and my experience so far is that I have been less healthy when I've been at 'ideal' weight.

 

[tara]

My guess is that if I have been effectively and consistently refeeding for over a year, and I manage to continue to eat to appetite consistently, that any fat -loss that is going to happen will probably start later this year. I don't know that it will happen at all, and if it does I don't expect it to be very soon or very quick.

 

[pboy]

dude someone spiked your potatoes

 

[IWishIWasRich]

I think it's a total waste to eat that many kcalsa above maintanance if you are not weightlifting to try to gain muscle mass. I feel so bloated when I try to eat more but don't lift.

 

[tara]

I think it's a total waste to eat that many kcalsa above maintanance if you are not weightlifting to try to gain muscle mass. I feel so bloated when I try to eat more but don't lift.

How many calories above maintenance do you think is a waste? There aren't any numbers for this in the posts above, so wondering what you are referring to?

Weight lifting with extra cals can help grow muscle (and sometimes bone).
It also takes extra cals above maintenance to heal after major injuries, surgeries, and maybe other kinds of damage.

 

[IWishIWasRich]

I think it's a total waste to eat that many kcalsa above maintanance if you are not weightlifting to try to gain muscle mass. I feel so bloated when I try to eat more but don't lift.

How many calories above maintenance do you think is a waste? There aren't any numbers for this in the posts above, so wondering what you are referring to?

Weight lifting with extra cals can help grow muscle (and sometimes bone).
It also takes extra cals above maintenance to heal after major injuries, surgeries, and maybe other kinds of damage.

Yeah I mean in general. Im just saying I would lift if im overeating.

 

[halken]

Matt Stone rubs me the wrong way. Ever since I saw that YouTube video of him scrutinizing some of Peat's work has left a bitter after taste. Not because Peat is free from scrutiny, but that Matt never really proved himself to be "qualified" for such a task.

His contradicting legacy of his articles further compliments that.

 

[bionicheart]

My background was long-term
high starch,
restricted milk, cheese, butter, sugar (including fruit), wheat/gluten,
variable protein and calories - some times too low, but never extremely low,
moderate to high PUFA (to avoid butter).

My key issue for decades has been migraines, but also low energy, feeling chronically tired and stressed, poor concentration, etc, intermittently foggy-headed (associated with dairy I think), and prone to low sugar crashes (extreme stress and shakiness, followed by slumps).

My weight had fluctuated over the years, but generally in the upper half of the so-called 'ideal' BMI. The older I got, the more of that was in the little pot belly. I have not done explicit calorie restriction, but I have restricted particular common foods on the basis of thinking I reacted badly to them, and this has sometimes resulted in under-eating.

My first stop 3 yrs ago was Buteyko, with little attention to diet.

I found a little info about Peat 2 or 3 years ago, tried drinking lots of OJ and milk, failed, and dropped it.

Then I stumbled on GAPS, cooked bone-broths etc and ate lots of meat, yogurt and sour cream for a month or two, reduced starches but never eliminated them for more than a few days.

Read Matt Stone's blog, noticed I was pretty skinny (seeing too many ribs, not feeling solid enough), ate lots for several months, including all the foods I had restricted. Gained at least 10 kg (I found later that my scales were becoming increasingly miscallibrated), had lots more energy, but no help with brain fog or migraines.

Read some RBTI. Tested SpH, UpH, conductivity, refractivity for months but never figured out how to get reagents for the nitrogen tests. Sugars varied wildly - could be both too high and too low. Tried to figure out appropriate diet from what I read. Tried to eat mostly morning and midday, little snacking, light dinner. Distilled water and drank it to the clock, tried sweetened lemon water on the clock too. Couldn't get consultant support without full test readings. Took lots of supplements, incl. different forms of calcium, mincol, seaweed. Learned some useful things, gained some benefits, was amazed that I could sleep through the night on a light dinner and and little or no supper. But no help with migraines, couldn't reliably manage to eat enough in the morning hours to fuel me adequately for the day for logistical reasons, no idea how to proceed. Over several months, I lost all the weight I'd gained the previous few months, could see too many ribs again, and was losing energy again.

Somewhere in there I read Gwyneth Olwyn's Youreatopia site. Started thinking that though I'd never been anorexic, I might well have had significant periods of under-eating from childhood on, and that that could have been at least partly responsible for my health issues.

Lastly, started reading Peat in earnest.
So while I've been gradually implementing more and more of Peat's ideas, I was also mindful of Gwyneth's thoughts on undereating, and the calorie levels she considers normal.
Last year I took on the mission of avoiding low sugar crashes, mostly by being really rigorous (and successful) about eating to appetite. I'm not anorexic - my appetite is pretty good at telling me to eat, except when migraine process etc is interfering. Sometimes I've been accidentally eating beyond appetite.
Last year I gained about 15 kg (somewhere in there I got new scales), this year I've maintained that and been weight-stable, now in the so-called 'overweight category (just marginally above the low-mortality trough in the mortality/BMI graphs I've seen), with now calorie restriction. Towards the end of last year I experimented with a little cyproheptadine. I don't know if the weight gain would have stopped earlier without that.A lot of the extra weight is fat, but some of it certainly feels like muscle, and I'm hoping there has also been improvement in other organs.
I spend a lot less time feeling like I'm going to fall asleep at work, etc. But I seem to have less capacity to push myself and run on stress hormones.

Over the last few years I've had a succession of joint and tendon injuries, some of which took ages to heal. Last year, a combination of injuries, frequent migraines, and life situation meant I got relatively little deliberate exercise.
My old, slow-healing injuries recovered last year. I put it down to overeating and being sedentary, as well as really focussing on meeting all my other nutritional requirements.

I don't know if I could have got all the gains I have by trying to address other metabolic bottlenecks while restricting calories to maintenance. I suspect that because I had rebuilding and repair to do, and because I have a history of periods of undereating, some fat gain may have been inevitable. I'm around fifty and female, along with whatever else is going on, and I think less likely to be able to do anabolism without fat-gain than young fit men. I figure my current fat is not enough to cause me any obvious health problems (other than slowing me down when I go up-hill). The odds are it will gradually decline during old age, because that's what usually happens. I'll be pleased if it goes down a little and I get a bit fitter before then, but I'll be prioritising overall health, and my experience so far is that I have been less healthy when I've been at 'ideal' weight.

Hi tara, I know this is an old post but I can't find the original Youreatopia website...! I know undereating has been my biggest issue due to no appetite during stress and working hours (working as a hair stylist with depression makes it near impossible to have a set lunch schedule, so I've skipped lunch a lot and am eating most of my calories in the evening, mostly high fat foods, like ice cream, milk and/or grilled cheese with sourdough, AFTER smoking wee d). Even though I have a monthly cycle and a "healthy BMI" 130 lbs at 5'10" I'm still boney and have GI issues. I finally stopped smoking 3 days ago and started taking mirtazapine two days ago to help my appetite--do you have any recollection of the original material on youreatopia site? I looked at it a couple years ago but was in denial of my disordered eating. I've been told cypro is helpful in my situation but don't want to make my depression worse. I guess other than the youreatopia question, do you think cypro would be a better option for someone like me? I'm 28 and used progesterone for a couple months (40-90mg a day) and that got rid of my painful periods, but now I just need to gain weight (preferably muscle) I have a tendency to stop taking mirtaz once I start gaining and go back to disordered eating.. Sorry for being so scatter brained... Thanks in advance for any suggestions or advice :}