Masterjohn Essential Fatty Acids are Essential

[Don Peterson]

Peat obviously tells the story better. But I just published this:

The PUFA Paradox: The PUFA Paradox | Nose to Tail

 

[Dr. B]

Nothing is zero pufa, but true, some fish have lower PUFA. These are fish that swim in warmer waters.

Every fat is a mix of SFA/MUFA/PUFA. Animal fats tend to be more saturated, most plant oils tend to be unsaturated. Coconut Oil is the most saturated natural oil, at about 93%. And coconuts grow near the equator, in the warmest available climate.

And they grow in colder climates, generally.

Cow and Goats milk aren't anywhere near 33% of each. Most of the fat is saturated, over 50%, there's a little bit of PUFA, maybe 2-3%, and the balance is MUFA.

If you look at plants and clod blooded animals, the PUFA content increases in colder climates or enviroments. This doesn't apply to warm blooded animals, like humans, that tends to keep their temperature higher regardless of climate, and have more saturated fat stores, unless altered by diet.

Yeah, and olives tend to grow in climates warmer than your average refrigerator.

Unless you are eating an artificial diet, PUFA is unavoidable. This isn't a perfect world, and there are unavoidable toxins all sorts of places, including the air we breathe. That's part of the reason why we have detoxification systems in our bodies. Still, it's better to keep levels of toxins low.

the point regards to olive oil is its MUFA with a small amount PUFA/SFA. Salmons fats are 1/3 each SFA/PUFA/MUFA. if they needed the flexibility from PUFA they should be majority pufa, 90% or even more because we know the SFA/MUFA will solidify at refrigerator temps. i cant remember specifics but i heard shrimp and certain fish/seafood are very low pufa. oyster also have something like 15% pufa then a mix of saturated/MUFA.

definitely, the cows milk and fat is very small, even soy/corn fed cows only have like 6% PUFA. however goats milk, at least the meyenberg brand, is 4g saturated fat, 1g MUFA and 2.5g PUFA per 8oz serving which is a lot of pufa. im not sure if its due to the way those goats are fed or they naturally have that much pufa. I know with pigs, chickens and humans the dietary pufa plays a big role in the stored fat and with cows they can convert most of the pufa to sfa/mufa.

yeah but im not certain on PUFA being a toxin, it may be that its essential in the very small amounts as found in mammalian milk, similar to something like iron, copper, numerous minerals/vitamins. Im not sure if cows and humans thousands of years ago were totally pufa free.

 

[tankasnowgod]

the point regards to olive oil is its MUFA with a small amount PUFA/SFA. Salmons fats are 1/3 each SFA/PUFA/MUFA. if they needed the flexibility from PUFA they should be majority pufa, 90% or even more because we know the SFA/MUFA will solidify at refrigerator temps. i cant remember specifics but i heard shrimp and certain fish/seafood are very low pufa. oyster also have something like 15% pufa then a mix of saturated/MUFA.

What makes you think all PUFA are equal?

Despite the three categories, there are lots of ways fatty acids can be different, including chain length, having a trans or cis isomer if there is a double bond, or having several double bonds.

All SFAs have 0 double bonds.
All MUFAs have 1 double bond.
But PUFAs aren't limited to 2. They can have more. Many more.

The PUFAs in salmon and other fish are highly unsaturated. Take a look at EPA, it has 5 double bonds-

Eicosapentaenoic acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

DHA has 6 (!!!!)

Docosahexaenoic acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Those are commonly found in fish. With 33% MUFA and 33% PUFA, fish fat can still be far, far more unsaturated than Olive oil, based on total number of double bonds.

This Kahn Academy video does a nice job of showing how triglycerides and fatty acids can be different with different degrees of saturation-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9lL2KStW9s

yeah but im not certain on PUFA being a toxin, it may be that its essential in the very small amounts as found in mammalian milk, similar to something like iron, copper, numerous minerals/vitamins. Im not sure if cows and humans thousands of years ago were totally pufa free.

I'm sure PUFA still existed thousands of years ago. Plants still didn't want to be eaten by animals back then, and would have already developed some toxins as defenses. Not every toxin on this planet is man made. Many occur naturally.

 

[Dr. B]

What makes you think all PUFA are equal?

Despite the three categories, there are lots of ways fatty acids can be different, including chain length, having a trans or cis isomer if there is a double bond, or having several double bonds.

All SFAs have 0 double bonds.
All MUFAs have 1 double bond.
But PUFAs aren't limited to 2. They can have more. Many more.

The PUFAs in salmon and other fish are highly unsaturated. Take a look at EPA, it has 5 double bonds-

Eicosapentaenoic acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

DHA has 6 (!!!!)

Docosahexaenoic acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Those are commonly found in fish. With 33% MUFA and 33% PUFA, fish fat can still be far, far more unsaturated than Olive oil, based on total number of double bonds.

This Kahn Academy video does a nice job of showing how triglycerides and fatty acids can be different with different degrees of saturation-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9lL2KStW9s




I'm sure PUFA still existed thousands of years ago. Plants still didn't want to be eaten by animals back then, and would have already developed some toxins as defenses. Not every toxin on this planet is man made. Many occur naturally.

with something like shrimp the logic makes more sense as they are apparently 0.9g pufa, 0.2g sfa and 0.1g mufa. however with oysters they are 1.4g sfa, 1.2g mufa, and only 0.4g pufa per serving which is a ratio almost comparable to that found in milk and beef fat. also if pufa are a true toxin shouldnt cows milk and other milks contain noticeably less PUFA than their meats since the milk should filter some of it out. its possible pufa are extremely toxic etc but even then the idea that fish have higher amounts because pufa is needed for lower temperatures or cold blood seems too reductionist. since you apparently dont need the pufa at all. i guess it is possible that the pufa present in society, even in cows milk etc is what has prevented humans and other species from living forever

 

[schultz]

interesting stuff mate, also what is TPN?

Total parenteral nutrition, where a person is fed intravenously. Since the gut isn't being used it can affect its permeability, possibly leading to increased endotoxin translocation (and the endotoxin in the actual nutrients being fed, or in the equipment). My point was just that TPN complications being used as proof that PUFA is essential is not as straight-forward as it sounds.

 

[tankasnowgod]

its possible pufa are extremely toxic etc but even then the idea that fish have higher amounts because pufa is needed for lower temperatures or cold blood seems too reductionist.

It's a phenomenon that Peat talks about. Plants in colder climates have more PUFA, less so in warmer climates. Coconuts grow in the tropics, not Alaska, He even talks about how pigs fat can become more saturated by letting the pigs wear temperatures.

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Ultimately, all systems of the body are harmed by an excess of these oils. There are two reasons for this. One is that the plants produce the oils for protection, not only to store energy for the germination of the seed. To defend the seeds from the animals that would eat them, the oils block the digestive enzymes in the animals' stomachs. Digestion is one of our most basic functions, and evolution has built many other systems by using variations of that system; as a result, all of these systems are damaged by the substances which damage the digestive system.

The other reason is that the seeds are designed to germinate in early spring, so their energy stores must be accessible when the temperatures are cool, and they normally don't have to remain viable through the hot summer months. Unsaturated oils are liquid when they are cold, and this is necessary for any organism that lives at low temperatures. For example, fish in cold water would be stiff if they contained saturated fats. These oils easily get rancid (spontaneously oxidizing) when they are warm and exposed to oxygen. Seeds contain a small amount of vitamin E to delay rancidity. When the oils are stored in our tissues, they are much warmer, and more directly exposed to oxygen, than they would be in the seeds, and so their tendency to oxidize is very great. These oxidative processes can damage enzymes and other parts of cells, and especially their ability to produce energy.

Do you think Peat is being "too reductionist" there?

since you apparently dont need the pufa at all. i guess it is possible that the pufa present in society, even in cows milk etc is what has prevented humans and other species from living forever

If you understand Peat's argument, it's that PUFA isn't "essential," it's unavoidable. Yes, it's present in a higher amount in modern society, but it was always there, as plants used it for defense and so their seeds can germinate in spring, and in cold water fish, so that they won't be too stiff. But in experiments where animals are depleted of PUFA in a state of so called "EFA Deficiency," they become incredibly durable, and resistant to stress, disease, poisoning, and trauma.

 

[tankasnowgod]

with something like shrimp the logic makes more sense as they are apparently 0.9g pufa, 0.2g sfa and 0.1g mufa. however with oysters they are 1.4g sfa, 1.2g mufa, and only 0.4g pufa per serving which is a ratio almost comparable to that found in milk and beef fat.

Well, you know, that extremely hard shell that mollusks have is going to be waaaaaay stiffer than saturated fat. They already aren't moving all that much.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Do you think Peat is being "too reductionist" there?

Definitely. Birds eat and digest all kinds of seeds. Many animals can't masticate the seeds in fruits they eat, so they are expelled whole; they are not digested due to mechanical limitation, not chemical deterrance (although some plants and seeds do contain noxious chemicals that some animals avoid).

 

[tankasnowgod]

Definitely. Birds eat and digest all kinds of seeds. Many animals can't masticate the seeds in fruits they eat, so they are expelled whole; they are not digested due to mechanical limitation, not chemical deterrance (although some plants and seeds do contain noxious chemicals that some animals avoid).

What does birds eating seeds have to do with temperature's influence on the saturation of fats?

 

[Perry Staltic]

What does birds eating seeds have to do with temperature's influence on the saturation of fats?

What I said was in response to this. It is simplistic and simply not true to apply this to all creatures and systems because it is only true in certain instances. I agree that excess of oils can harm the body, but so can excess of anything. So the real issue is not oils, but excess.

Ultimately, all systems of the body are harmed by an excess of these oils. There are two reasons for this. One is that the plants produce the oils for protection, not only to store energy for the germination of the seed. To defend the seeds from the animals that would eat them, the oils block the digestive enzymes in the animals' stomachs. Digestion is one of our most basic functions, and evolution has built many other systems by using variations of that system; as a result, all of these systems are damaged by the substances which damage the digestive system.

 

[Dr. B]

It's a phenomenon that Peat talks about. Plants in colder climates have more PUFA, less so in warmer climates. Coconuts grow in the tropics, not Alaska, He even talks about how pigs fat can become more saturated by letting the pigs wear temperatures.

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Do you think Peat is being "too reductionist" there?




If you understand Peat's argument, it's that PUFA isn't "essential," it's unavoidable. Yes, it's present in a higher amount in modern society, but it was always there, as plants used it for defense and so their seeds can germinate in spring, and in cold water fish, so that they won't be too stiff. But in experiments where animals are depleted of PUFA in a state of so called "EFA Deficiency," they become incredibly durable, and resistant to stress, disease, poisoning, and trauma.

some fish have significant PUFA ratios like shrimp, who have a hard shell, but then you have salmon which have about an equal ratio pufa mufa sfa, then some fish dont have much fat at all. im not sure you can say PUFAs basic function or reasons fish have higher amounts is due to needed flexibility or colder temps. there might be something else the pufa is doing.

pigs are known to have more PUFA dependent on their diet, similar to humans, chickens, and possibly goats. so if they have more SFA simply from wearing sweaters they seem to be the exception to the rule, or maybe the difference is small.

i havent looked much into plants, but plants/seeds can just contain actual lethal toxins and poisons no? and do we know whether all plants, seeds, nuts etc contain fats at all or contain pufa? if tropical plants have mostly sfa or less pufa then do they rely more on other toxins or something to prevent their seeds being eaten/digested and so on?

are animals like polar bears doomed to get cancer since they are warm blooded but eat a bunch of pufa or are the carnivores specially adapted to consume pufa? i think Ray mentioned something about the big cats being able to tolerate it better. at the same time big cats are usually eating ruminants/animals with sfa it seems they dont eat fish often.

maybe the smaller fish have more pufa as a toxin mechanism? then the thing is how are whales and larger animals properly digesting these pufa fish if they inhibit digestion. additionally if dolphins and potentially other fish or whales are warm blooded as others mentioned how are they surviving, are they going for SFA based foods.

Well, you know, that extremely hard shell that mollusks have is going to be waaaaaay stiffer than saturated fat. They already aren't moving all that much.

yet shrimp have some of the highest ratios of PUFA and they have a shell, whereas salmon and tilapia are mostly MUFA/SFA without any shell, and this is barely scratching the surface. its not clear if the PUFAS are simply for added flexibility/cold temperatures or if there is something else theyre doing.

although i havent looked into the type of PUFA in shrimp. maybe its not as unsaturated as in salmon/tilapia. also Rays words seem to imply consuming PUFA seeds are safer than eating the processed pufa oils. you may be absorbing a lot more pufa from the oils

 

[Darkmortal]

7:20
He speaks about total parenteral nutrition (TPN) and how having zero fat caused skin issues. I saw this discussed elsewhere on this forum and the consensus seems to be that it was a lack of any fat issue rather than a lack of EFA issue. But then he talks about how fat was later added to address this issue and still a woman on long-term TPN eventually developed neurological issues with a solution of safflower that went away after changing to soybean oil (containing enough EFA).

What is the peatian rebuttal to this case-study?

24:00
Matt Blackburn enters the chat and climes in that "They're not essential though" to which Masterjohn replies that he knows about Ray Peat (but clearly isn't moved in his position) and refers him to his article precious yet perilous.

I will read this article shortly but wanted to hear the evidence against this as it's tenents have surely been discussed here before.

In the beginning of my hair loss reversal journey and before knowing about ray’s work and diet, i was told and used to take omega complex to combat hair loss, i was seeing progress tho, after reading about ray and started implementing his ideas (food, lifestyle etc) and started, of course, completely cutting out essential fatty acids (omega 3 6 9) my hair has been in it’s worst form ever in my life while i was trying all his methods for hair growth (topical peogesterone, saturated fats, aspirin, b12, caffeine) with absolutely zero progress in hair regrowth, his diet were useful tho, i never got leaner in my life and never had better stomach relief, but that sheds a light.
Maybe that was the first time i knew that ray is a human after all and he can have [some] wrong ideas too, experimenting is your ally.

 

[Dr. B]

In the beginning of my hair loss reversal journey and before knowing about ray’s work and diet, i was told and used to take omega complex to combat hair loss, i was seeing progress tho, after reading about ray and started implementing his ideas (food, lifestyle etc) and started, of course, completely cutting out essential fatty acids (omega 3 6 9) my hair has been in it’s worst form ever in my life while i was trying all his methods for hair growth (topical peogesterone, saturated fats, aspirin, b12, caffeine) with absolutely zero progress in hair regrowth, his diet were useful tho, i never got leaner in my life and never had better stomach relief, but that sheds a light.
Maybe that was the first time i knew that ray is a human after all and he can have [some] wrong ideas too, experimenting is your ally.

Were you actually doing low pufa or zero pufa though? What kind of foods were you eating? Omega 3 is anti inflammatory, maybe anti endotoxin, and also 5 ar inhibiting in higher amounts which could help reduce hair loss.

How did you cut omega 9 out? Omega 9 is made from sugar in the body anyway... and its in most animal fats and dairy

 

[Serge]

Yesterday youtube recommended me this guy, of whom I strangely never heard before. He's a big proponent of Omegas 9 and 6. Unless he wears makeup, his skin looks outstanding for a 20 year old, and he is 80. Some food for thought.

 

[Darkmortal]

Were you actually doing low pufa or zero pufa though? What kind of foods were you eating? Omega 3 is anti inflammatory, maybe anti endotoxin, and also 5 ar inhibiting in higher amounts which could help reduce hair loss.

How did you cut omega 9 out? Omega 9 is made from sugar in the body anyway... and its in most animal fats and dairy

I was consuming almost zero PUFAs, and no I’m not so sure about omega 9 maybe i was consuming a tiny bit of it.

 

[Mito]

How Essential Are the Essential Fatty Acids?

A Critical Review of the the Requirement for Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids

open.substack.com

 

[Energizer]

I attempted to wade through the minutiae there in Masterjohn's argument, but I admit I cannot make heads or tails of the reasoning here as it seems to be bogged down in technical jargon (but my hat is off to you if you read that entire article word for word without wanting to fall asleep), and especially his closing recommendation of a weekly serving of fatty fish for "Omega 3 reserves". Particularly since my impression is the body is able to synthesize these fats naturally, the idea of there needing to be a "reserve" of something here seems oxymoronic.

 

[Sitaruîm]

I attempted to wade through the minutiae there in Masterjohn's argument, but I admit I cannot make heads or tails of the reasoning here as it seems to be bogged down in technical jargon (but my hat is off to you if you read that entire article word for word without wanting to fall asleep), and especially his closing recommendation of a weekly serving of fatty fish for "Omega 3 reserves". Particularly since my impression is the body is able to synthesize these fats naturally, the idea of there needing to be a "reserve" of something here seems oxymoronic.

I believe part of the reason they are called essential is that the body cannot synthesize them. Of course, observing a certain amount of these ubiquitous fats in human tissues doesn't prove their essentiality. What would prove it is an experiment where serious issues arise if humans are deprived of these fats.

 

[Energizer]

I believe part of the reason they are called essential is that the body cannot synthesize them. Of course, observing a certain amount of these ubiquitous fats in human tissues doesn't prove their essentiality. What would prove it is an experiment where serious issues arise if humans are deprived of these fats.

Yes but Masterjohn calls it "EFA deficiency" in his article but Peat argues the exact opposite in all his articles, that EFA deficiency is a doctrine which really has no basis, because animals that are deficient in PUFAs live longer and are healthier. So he pays lipservice to Ray's work, but seems to not understand the argument Ray was making, in fact at the end of the article Masterjohn writes "The evidence presented herein suggests that the ideal diet contains a mix of saturated and monounsaturated fat, with only a very small amount of PUFA provided primarily by animal fats such as lard, liver and egg yolks. Such a diet will provide the required amount of EFA". The required amount of EFA. I don't know why he is writing that last part, but he seems confused. You don't have a required amount of EFAs. There is nothing in his article that backs up the essentiality of EFAs. Otherwise I agree with the general points, to look for nutrient dense foods.

Here's an article from Ray on EFAs for contrast: Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

 

[redsun]

Yes but Masterjohn calls it "EFA deficiency" in his article but Peat argues the exact opposite in all his articles, that EFA deficiency is a doctrine which really has no basis, because animals that are deficient in PUFAs live longer and are healthier. So he pays lipservice to Ray's work, but seems to not understand the argument Ray was making, in fact at the end of the article Masterjohn writes "The evidence presented herein suggests that the ideal diet contains a mix of saturated and monounsaturated fat, with only a very small amount of PUFA provided primarily by animal fats such as lard, liver and egg yolks. Such a diet will provide the required amount of EFA". The required amount of EFA. I don't know why he is writing that last part, but he seems confused. You don't have a required amount of EFAs. There is nothing in his article that backs up the essentiality of EFAs. Otherwise I agree with the general points, to look for nutrient dense foods.

Here's an article from Ray on EFAs for contrast: Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Humans clearly do require EFA. You need arachidonic acid to make eicosanoids which have known functions in the body. AA is also the precursor to endogenous cannabinoids such as anandamide and 2-Arachidonoylglycerol. DHA is a major component in brain tissue and the retina needed for maintenance of plasma membranes. We need them in small amounts but definitely do require them.