Masterjohn Essential Fatty Acids are Essential

[Nemo]

Surely you're not serious.

Masterjohn has health issues. He is open about them.

 

[tankasnowgod]

He doesn't look healthy to me either. And it means something to me too, alot actually.

I personally don't care if we agree on beauty standards but a healthy person is something that you can see: in their eyes, hair, skin, teeth etc. and the "glow" they give off in my opinion.

I've come to realize tho that a person can have the best of knowledge but the body still does not work or look ideal simply because we haven't figured "all" out yet that is destroying a person.

I'd agree with this.... if you were looking at him in the real world. But you're not.

He basically just looks sweaty and disheveled. Maybe it's a sign of poor health, or maybe it's a sign he doesn't have AC in his apartment. Or, maybe he just got back from a run and decided to do a live stream. Not everyone has hair and makeup at the ready when they want to do some video streaming online.

 

[Nemo]

So eczema happens with zero fat TPN? I mean, the rebuttal would come right from Peat's articles....... their metabolism was probably boosted, and they needed more B vitamins and Zinc than what was likely fed in the TPN formula. So, nothing new in the slightest there.

An example, right at the top of this one-

Good post, good common sense points that anyone can understand.

 

[Ben.]

I'd agree with this.... if you were looking at him in the real world. But you're not.

You are right. I'd need to see him in person.

 

[xeliex]

Surely you're not serious.

He's been losing his hair pretty fast.
He previously got photo shoot shredded.
He was having gait problems that neurologists could not figure out - but he did.
I respect the guy a lot. I see him as Danny Roddy would say, as a secret Peat ally.
A slight shift in perspective in some of his thoughts do support Peatarian ideas.

 

[mrchibbs]

I think the EFA story is super complicated and nuanced, but one thing that speaks to me is how resilient lab animals seem to be when they're "EFA deficient"

 

[Mito]

also where did you see pufa increase cortisol

PUFA Enhance Glucocorticoid (cortisol) Signalling

I posted some studied in the past on the estrogenic and pro-cortisol effects of PUFA, as well as the pro-androgen effects of SFA. One of those studies showed that PUFA increases cortisol synthesis even in the absence of ACTH, which suggests that they may have pituitary hormonal-like effects...

raypeatforum.com

PUFA Initiate & Promote The Stress Response (ACTH/cortisol), SFA Inhibit It

Almost two years ago I posted a study showing that PUFA can stimulate cortisol release even in the absence of ACTH. Pufa Stimulates Cortisol Production Even In The Absense Of Acth However, that study above did not look at the effects of saturated fatty acids (SFA) and I keep getting emails...

raypeatforum.com

but to what extent do you think PUFA is bad, thats also an area where weston price foundation disagrees with peat they say theyre essential in very small minimal amounts

It’s probably comes down to risk. The younger and healthier you are, the more PUFA you can probably safely deal with. Peat has mentioned he switched to hydrogenated coconut oil to further reduce PUFA is his diet because the risk of PUFA leading to cancer increases with age.

the mechanism they use to decrease inflammation?

@Hans talks about mechanisms is this article Why Omega 3 should be avoided and what to use/do instead » MENELITE

also...

PUFA are potent immunosuppresive agents

Just a quick post for all those PUFA/fish-oil lovers who keep sending me hate-mail about the "incredibly beneficial" omega-3, and even omega-6 (e.g. some athletes/bodybuilders tout arachidonic acid as a natural "anabolic agent"). As the study below discusses, all PUFA, but especially omega-3...

raypeatforum.com

 

[Mito]

You are contradicting yourself. To label something as not essential, and then to present that there is some daily requirement for it.

I've not seen anything that indicates zero omega 6 is sustainable long term. Do you have any such study or anecdote (zero, not 1g)

Those were examples of contrasting views of a couple different forum members. @Travis and @tyw have argued that some DHA is essential.

Georgi has talked about planning to do an animal study with a zero PUFA diet, but it’s been delayed due to laboratory shut downs for COVID.

 

[Mito]

Just for the lols:

Omega-6 Fatty Acids and Risk for Cardiovascular Disease : A Science Advisory From the
American Heart Association Nutrition Subcommittee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical
Activity, and Metabolism; Council on Cardiovascular Nursing; and Council on
Epidemiology and Prevention

“The Los Angeles Veterans Administration Hospital Study lasted over eight years, and most of the subjects were enrolled for at least six years.17 It is the only one of these six studies where the mean age of the subjects was greater than sixty, so it allows us to better see the effect of vegetable oils on the risk of cancer, if such an effect exists.

Subjects eating the diet rich in vegetable oils had a lower risk of cardiovascular mortality, but a higher risk of mortality from other causes. As a result, diet had no effect on total mortality. This is clearly shown in Figure 3. As shown in Figure 4, deaths from cancer began to increase in the vegetable oil group after two years, and the increase became much larger after five years.19 As shown in Figure 5, the difference in the incidence of all deaths from non-cardiovascular causes began to increase in the vegetable oil group only after four years and remained extremely small until seven years.17 After seven years, non-cardiovascular mortality began to increase rapidly. The disturbing possibility that the true harms of vegetable oils take years to emerge did not escape the authors, and they concluded that “future clinical trials of diets rich in unsaturated fat must be planned for periods well in excess of eight years, rather than for the five-year periods that have been the usual goal.” Such longer trials have never been conducted.”

Good Fats, Bad Fats: Separating Fact from Fiction

🖨️ Print post Few driving factors have had such a profound influence on the transition from traditional to modern industrial diets as the campaign against animal fats and […]

www.westonaprice.org

 

[grithin]

Subjects eating the diet rich in vegetable oils had a lower risk of cardiovascular mortality, but a higher risk of mortality from other causes

Yes, Masterjohn, who wrote that article, has good points. But, responding to my "for the lols" with the article by Masterjohn just highlights my point - the essentiality, with regard to this thread and Masterjohn, is a consideration of how much is necessary, not a consideration of how much is excess or that there can be an excess.

I'm sure, however, your posts are useful, since many people are unaware of the specifics of the negatives of excess PUFA.

And, interestingly, despite your

The argument for PUFA being essential is not only wrong, it is obsolete

Your "1g-2g of PUFA" actually corresponds with both the rat studies on the essentiality (~100mg for a rat) and my own personal experiments.

 

[Dr. B]

PUFA Enhance Glucocorticoid (cortisol) Signalling

I posted some studied in the past on the estrogenic and pro-cortisol effects of PUFA, as well as the pro-androgen effects of SFA. One of those studies showed that PUFA increases cortisol synthesis even in the absence of ACTH, which suggests that they may have pituitary hormonal-like effects...

raypeatforum.com

PUFA Initiate & Promote The Stress Response (ACTH/cortisol), SFA Inhibit It

Almost two years ago I posted a study showing that PUFA can stimulate cortisol release even in the absence of ACTH. Pufa Stimulates Cortisol Production Even In The Absense Of Acth However, that study above did not look at the effects of saturated fatty acids (SFA) and I keep getting emails...

raypeatforum.com

It’s probably comes down to risk. The younger and healthier you are, the more PUFA you can probably safely deal with. Peat has mentioned he switched to hydrogenated coconut oil to further reduce PUFA is his diet because the risk of PUFA leading to cancer increases with age.

@Hans talks about mechanisms is this article Why Omega 3 should be avoided and what to use/do instead » MENELITE

also...

PUFA are potent immunosuppresive agents

Just a quick post for all those PUFA/fish-oil lovers who keep sending me hate-mail about the "incredibly beneficial" omega-3, and even omega-6 (e.g. some athletes/bodybuilders tout arachidonic acid as a natural "anabolic agent"). As the study below discusses, all PUFA, but especially omega-3...

raypeatforum.com

do you think fish consumption and seed consumption would cause cancer or is it the processing of these products into refined oils that causes the cancer. because arent sharks extremely resistant to cancer, and wouldnt fish themselves be dying of cancer?
what are your thoughts on thymoquinone in nigella sativa oil (omega 6 oil), as well as if you have a mostly dairy fat based diet but you add in 1-2g of mega 3/omega 6 oils

 

[tankasnowgod]

do you think fish consumption and seed consumption would cause cancer or is it the processing of these products into refined oils that causes the cancer. because arent sharks extremely resistant to cancer, and wouldnt fish themselves be dying of cancer?
what are your thoughts on thymoquinone in nigella sativa oil (omega 6 oil), as well as if you have a mostly dairy fat based diet but you add in 1-2g of mega 3/omega 6 oils

Sharks have an expected lifespan of 20-30 years. Salmon, for example, only live 2-7 years. Not sure you can compare that to developing cancer in humans, especially since sharks and fish are cold blooded. Humans develop cancer later in life, long after a shark born in the same year would be dead.

Part of the reason these cold blooded animals would rely more on PUFA is the needed flexibility. Relying heavily on saturated fats would makes these creatures stiff as a 2x4 in the waters that they live.

The issue is with PUFA themselves, but you can get a much bigger dose eating food cooked in soybean oil than occasional salmon. 100g of soybean oil can get you 67 g of PUFA, which someone on the SAD might hit in a day, if they eat fries, chips, mayo, salad dressings, and other processed foods. You'd have to eat about 3-4 pounds of salmon to get the same PUFA dose. Very few eat that much salmon in a day. Most probably don't even eat that much in a month. But Peat does talk in one of his articles of people living on fishing boats and eating a few pounds of salmon a day, developing health issues, likely due to the dose of omega 3 fats they were getting.

 

[Dr. B]

Sharks have an expected lifespan of 20-30 years. Salmon, for example, only live 2-7 years. Not sure you can compare that to humans, especially since sharks and fish are cold blooded. Part of the reason they would rely more on PUFA is the needed flexibility. Relying heavily on saturated fats would makes these creatures stiff as a 2x4 in waters that they live.

The issue is with PUFA themselves, but you can get a much bigger dose eating food cooked in soybean oil than occasional salmon. 100g of soybean oil can get you 67 g of PUFA, which someone on the SAD might hit in a day, if they eat fries, chips, mayo, salad dressings, and other processed foods. You'd have to eat about 3-4 pounds of salmon to get the same PUFA dose. Very few eat that much salmon in a day. Most probably don't even eat that much in a month. But Peat does talk in one of his articles of people living on fishing boats and eating a few pounds of salmon a day, developing health issues, likely due to the dose of omega 3 fats they were getting.

are people in cold climates doing better/do they need more pufa in the diet? ive heard fish need more pufa due to flexibility but it doesnt make total sense. why do you think sharks are resistnt to cancer, some people say its the squalene that has anti cancer effects but on the other hand peat thinks squalene is dangerous and causes blackheads/oxidizes? also dont all humans make squalene first in the process, its squalene first then lanosterol, then cholesterol and then pregnenolone. so can squalene/lanosterol consumption be bad if theyre precursors to cholesterol?

 

[Mito]

why do you think sharks are resistnt to cancer

Sharks do get cancer Sharks Do Get Cancer: Tumor Found in Great White

 

[tankasnowgod]

are people in cold climates doing better/do they need more pufa in the diet?

Only if they are cold blooded like fish.

ive heard fish need more pufa due to flexibility but it doesnt make total sense.

It doesn't? Then go buy some corn or fish oil, and some butter, and put both in some ice cold water. Maybe put the oils into a balloon or zip lock bag to keep them together. See which is more flexible.

why do you think sharks are resistnt to cancer, some people say its the squalene that has anti cancer effects but on the other hand peat thinks squalene is dangerous and causes blackheads/oxidizes?

Well, I don't know if they are, but again, with a lifespan of 20-30 years, maybe they just don't live long enough to develop cancer. Or have cancer seen regularly by human veterinarians. It's not like they are going for a medical checkup every year.

 

[schultz]

So eczema happens with zero fat TPN? I mean, the rebuttal would come right from Peat's articles....... their metabolism was probably boosted, and they needed more B vitamins and Zinc than what was likely fed in the TPN formula. So, nothing new in the slightest there.

This seems plausible to me. The person doesn't have the instinct to eat more of a certain food to gain more of a certain nutrient because it is all controlled externally. I've heard they didn't even add zinc to TPN until the late 70's or something. There are other factors though with TPN... endotoxin is a big problem with TPN because it is bypassing your GI. If the equipment or the food is contaminated it can cause problems with the patient. Also I'm not sure what effect it has on the intestine?

Just throwing some thoughts out there.

are people in cold climates doing better/do they need more pufa in the diet? ive heard fish need more pufa due to flexibility but it doesnt make total sense. why do you think sharks are resistnt to cancer

Interestingly dolphins get diabetes. They are warm blooded, unlike fish, so an interesting creature to study in regards to PUFA. I think iron is associated with diabetes in dolphins and we know iron can oxidize PUFA when it comes into contact with it and cause lipid peroxidation. A certain SFA ( C:17 ) is associated with less diabetes in dolphins.

Edit: I had another thought. Horses can develop diabetes. Horses are actually psuedo-ruminant animals and only have 3 "stomachs" so I think they are more sensitive to dietary PUFA as it doesn't get saturated as well as it does in an animal like a cow.

 

[Dr. B]

Only if they are cold blooded like fish.

It doesn't? Then go buy some corn or fish oil, and some butter, and put both in some ice cold water. Maybe put the oils into a balloon or zip lock bag to keep them together. See which is more flexible.

Well, I don't know if they are, but again, with a lifespan of 20-30 years, maybe they just don't live long enough to develop cancer. Or have cancer seen regularly by human veterinarians. It's not like they are going for a medical checkup every year.

arent some fish low or zero pufa, and isnt salmon a mix, salmon has MUFA, PUFA and saturated fat in close to a 11 ratio. theres numerous plant/seed and other oils which have high PUFA, as well as cow milk/fat has slight amounts whereas goat milk has significant amounts, its also like 33% each of mufa sfa pufa. it seems too simplistic to say it is simply due to being in the colder climate and for flexibility. even olive oil will solidify in the fridge and that is mostly mufa. also even the 100% grass fed milks and beef contain around 3-6% pufa in the fat, is that considered a toxin of sorts only present in the modern animals?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Surely you're not serious.

Chris Masterjohn Seems To Be Falling Apart

Couple people are commenting on facebook on a recent post at the end of November from Chris Masterjohn on Facebook. Lots of theories around this. Veganism, too much Vit A, etc. Here is the quote from his post: "I went in for an MRI last night. I was nervous AF about getting injected with...

raypeatforum.com

There was a thread about his health breaking down.

 

[Dr. B]

This seems plausible to me. The person doesn't have the instinct to eat more of a certain food to gain more of a certain nutrient because it is all controlled externally. I've heard they didn't even add zinc to TPN until the late 70's or something. There are other factors though with TPN... endotoxin is a big problem with TPN because it is bypassing your GI. If the equipment or the food is contaminated it can cause problems with the patient. Also I'm not sure what effect it has on the intestine?

Just throwing some thoughts out there.



Interestingly dolphins get diabetes. They are warm blooded, unlike fish, so an interesting creature to study in regards to PUFA. I think iron is associated with diabetes in dolphins and we know iron can oxidize PUFA when it comes into contact with it and cause lipid peroxidation. A certain SFA ( C:17 ) is associated with less diabetes in dolphins.

Edit: I had another thought. Horses can develop diabetes. Horses are actually psuedo-ruminant animals and only have 3 "stomachs" so I think they are more sensitive to dietary PUFA as it doesn't get saturated as well as it does in an animal like a cow.

interesting stuff mate, also what is TPN?

 

[tankasnowgod]

arent some fish low or zero pufa,

Nothing is zero pufa, but true, some fish have lower PUFA. These are fish that swim in warmer waters.

and isnt salmon a mix, salmon has MUFA, PUFA and saturated fat in close to a 11 ratio.

Every fat is a mix of SFA/MUFA/PUFA. Animal fats tend to be more saturated, most plant oils tend to be unsaturated. Coconut Oil is the most saturated natural oil, at about 93%. And coconuts grow near the equator, in the warmest available climate.

theres numerous plant/seed and other oils which have high PUFA,

And they grow in colder climates, generally.

as well as cow milk/fat has slight amounts whereas goat milk has significant amounts, its also like 33% each of mufa sfa pufa.

Cow and Goats milk aren't anywhere near 33% of each. Most of the fat is saturated, over 50%, there's a little bit of PUFA, maybe 2-3%, and the balance is MUFA.

it seems too simplistic to say it is simply due to being in the colder climate and for flexibility.

If you look at plants and clod blooded animals, the PUFA content increases in colder climates or enviroments. This doesn't apply to warm blooded animals, like humans, that tends to keep their temperature higher regardless of climate, and have more saturated fat stores, unless altered by diet.

even olive oil will solidify in the fridge and that is mostly mufa.

Yeah, and olives tend to grow in climates warmer than your average refrigerator.

also even the 100% grass fed milks and beef contain around 3-6% pufa in the fat, is that considered a toxin of sorts only present in the modern animals?

Unless you are eating an artificial diet, PUFA is unavoidable. This isn't a perfect world, and there are unavoidable toxins all sorts of places, including the air we breathe. That's part of the reason why we have detoxification systems in our bodies. Still, it's better to keep levels of toxins low.