Massive Sudden Water Retention (+7kg In 1 Week)

[JustAGuy]

Hello,

In an effort to increase my resting heartrate (usually 30-35) and improve my digestion I have stopped all exercise and increased my calorie intake by 400 to 3400 calories (6’6 male 24 age 180 lbs).

My midsection is basically pregnant suddenly, holding a massive amount of water. I went from having a veiny 6-pack where you could grab only skin to being a balloon, can still not grab any fat so I know it is water weight.

I am wondering what I should do? Just keep going? Besides the massive water retention I feel pretty decent. Have I overworked my body and is it trying to recover?

 

[foodandtheworld]

This is an extremely common symptom of refeeding among people who have had some type of eating disorder or had been undereating for a long time. 400 calories as well as exercise leads me to believe your body was in a very damaged state if that has been a prolonged pattern for you. I am going to link to some sites that discuss eating disorders -- I am not implying you have had one, but I found them the most useful in covering the physiological aspects of recovery. EDIT: I misread - you *raised* your calories by 400, not that you were only eating 400. Still, if you experienced a sudden gain in water weight, I think the rest of what I wrote still holds, as that is a common symptom of the first phase of recovery from undereating.

I recommend reading this page: Edema: The Bane (and Blessing) of the Recovery Process
The author has a very Peat-like perspective (though I don't think she ever read him). I recommend all of the articles on that site, as well as the author's book "Homeodynamic Recovery Method". The psychological aspect may not apply as much to you, but the physiological aspects I found to be very useful.

I found this article explaining the phases of weight gain and restoration to be accurate in my own case: What to Expect in Recovery

To answer your question, the same thing happened to me. I just kept going. Eventually the weight gain stopped although my calories stayed the same (I tried to hit at least 3000 a day, but sometimes I had what was called "extreme hunger" and needed 4000, or even 5000 calories for brief period in order to feel satiated). As I had been undereating my entire life (calories, protein, micronutrients), it made sense that such a surplus was needed. After a few months, my temperatures and pulse seemed to go up and stay up. After maybe 5-6 months, I felt like I could eat to appetite without experiencing stress symptoms (e.g., waking up with pounding heart,) or other hypometabolic symptoms.

I wouldn't try any diuretics to lose the water weight -- I think it will likely interfere with whatever recovery process your body is going through right now.

However, I have read some interview transcripts where Peat has said water retention is due to estrogen dominance in one's body. This would make sense as estrogen is the stress hormone, and one's tissues have been injured from prolonged malnutrition. Perhaps progesterone would assist in the recovery process -- but I haven't tried it myself, and I haven't read anything about it yet in that context. The same goes for thyroid. I never tried it yet but had good results from food alone (calories from carbs/simple sugars, 80 grams of protein, liver/oysters for micros). But if one is basically in a hypothyroid state from malnourishment, perhaps thyroid supplementation could be very helpful. I just didn't bother with it personally but may look into it now to overcome some lingering symptoms (dark eye circles). I think food is the critical focus though if you have been undereating and overexercising for years.

Relevant Peat quotes (I bolded the parts that I found most helpful):

Ray Peat
In various situations, the tissues of other animals actually increased their estrogen content with aging.But since progesterone is decreasing, progesterone happens to be what inhibits the formation of estrogen inside the cells, all through the body. If you don't have very much progesterone, the estrogen goes on being synthesized, but it can't escape from the cell into the bloodstream, where it could be excreted from the body. So, while the body is actually loading up inside the cells with estrogen (when there is a progesterone deficiency), the blood shows very low level of estrogen, because it can't leave the cell. It needs things such as progesterone to loosen it from the binding proteins called "receptors" in the cells. So, seeing that the estrogen excess causes a wasting of oxygen in the tissues, that basically suffocates the embryo that's trying to implant and grow, so it prevents pregnancy. And that explains how the birth control pill works. It creates an excess of estrogen in the tissues, suffocating the fertilized egg and preventing its implantation and growth. And when you look at stress, malnutrition and various stressors that decrease your thyroid and progesterone production, [they] have that same effect as aging (or [as] taking an estrogen supplement). It leads to the progressive increase of estrogen inside cells, along with all of the associated things caused by high estrogen; and that creates effectively an oxygen deficiency, which leads to progressive loss of all of the differentiated functions.


Ray Peat
When your thyroid is low – because you don’t have the efficiency with oxidative metabolism, you turn a lot of your sugar into lactic acid. And then your liver spends more energy converting the lactic acid back into sugar. So low blood sugar is constantly a problem in hypothyroidism. And the compensation for that is that, first, your adrenal medulla secretes a lot of adrenaline to force your liver to give up any sugar it has stored. And when that doesn’t meet your needs for sugar, then the adrenal cortex begins over-secreting cortisol to break down protein or muscle tissue to make sugar out of it to keep your energy up. And the falling blood sugar itself and the rising adrenaline, both of those are signals to your brain to increase the stress hormones. The ACTH is produced by the pituitary gland, but also other brain and pituitary hormones, including prolactin, increase along with it. And the ACTH is what drives your cortisol up. And the cortisol is what causes the most acute tissue damage, loss of muscle mass, and quick loss of bone structure and so on. ANDREW MURRAY: Okay. Also weight gain, isn’t it? Low muscle mass in relation to weight – fat? RAY PEAT: Yeah. As your ability to burn fat decreases with your falling thyroid, the cortisol eats up your skeletal muscles that burn fat. And so, the unburned fat gets laid down in your trunk and neck and face area. It’s probably some kind of a defensive reaction to pad your organs when you are under chronic stress.


Ray Peat
RAY PEAT: Yes, that's why so many women are dieting constantly and getting fatter because if they eat an extremely low calorie diet, creating stress, the hight cortisol - and those are stress hormones - cause them to break down their protein, and their big muscles shrink so that the typical dieter will...you can hardly see her calf muscles, it becomes so atrophied. The big skeletal muscles, even at rest, burn fat to maintain themselves - almost a pure fat diet when they are at rest. So the more dieting they do, if they do it extremely, the smaller their muscles get, and then the easier it is to get fat the next time they eat a normal diet.

RAY PEAT: They fed them different foods, like a mixed diet - a little protein, a little carbohydrate, and especially a low fat intake, just so they were able to get some of their calorie needs from the diet rather than from their tissues. In the first one year in first day on a fast, your body uses up the sugar that's stored as glycogen. As soon as your blood sugar falls, because you've used up your stores, then your cortisol rises - first the adrenalin, then the cortisol - and the cortisol having no food available, it starts converting your thymus gland and big skeletal muscles, mostly, to free amino acids - which then can be, some of them, converted to glucose to feed your blood cells and brain and eyes and so on - because those have an absolute requirement for glucose. And So even a plain sugar diet to supply that minimal amount to your brain and blood cells require, that will greatly prevent the rising cortisol and loss of good tissue.


Ray Peat
And what about poor protein intake? Does that influence the thyroid hormone? RAY PEAT: Yeah. In the 1940s, studies were done showing that they saw that people in the concentration camps, men who came out and started eating well, would often grow breasts. And they saw that the starvation for protein, in particular, causes the liver to become unable to destroy estrogen. And thyroid is needed to inactivate estrogen. And if you’re getting low calories, but especially low thyroid, you turn your metabolism down, so that you don't eat up the proteins in your muscles so fast. So just a fairly slight protein deficiency will cause your thyroid to slow down defensively. And that means that your liver is leaving more estrogen in circulation. And then, estrogen blocks the enzymes which attach iodine to the protein to make the thyroid hormone. So just stress or a protein deficiency will let estrogen rise, and the rising estrogen will block the secretion from your thyroid, creating a vicious RAY PEAT: circle. SARAH JOHANNESSEN MURRAY: But then when they came out and started eating well, their livers were damaged so severely that their estrogen was really high. RAY PEAT: Yeah. And animal studies showed that the vitamins B1 and B2, as well as protein, were the main things that activate the liver to inactivate RAY PEAT: estrogen. ANDREW MURRAY: One of the best sources for B-vitamins is ANDREW MURRAY: liver. Is that correct? RAY PEAT: Yeah.
​

 

[Peatful]

Hello,

In an effort to increase my resting heartrate (usually 30-35) and improve my digestion I have stopped all exercise and increased my calorie intake by 400 to 3400 calories (6’6 male 24 age 180 lbs).

My midsection is basically pregnant suddenly, holding a massive amount of water. I went from having a veiny 6-pack where you could grab only skin to being a balloon, can still not grab any fat so I know it is water weight.

I am wondering what I should do? Just keep going? Besides the massive water retention I feel pretty decent. Have I overworked my body and is it trying to recover?

This happened to me; it’s quite startling.
Aspirin, doxycycline and estrogen (I’m talking separately) seem to be a trigger for me.
Aspirin caused muscle, water and fat gain.
Doxycycline was primarily water.

 

[Runenight201]

For sure estrogen is at play, and I think also you probably are a bit constipated and not moving food properly through your system, which can lead to bloat.

Too much starch can bloat really easily and cause inflammation and water retention if not moved quickly enough through the digestive track. Sugar and caffeine help keep things moving in my experience.

 

[Cirion]

It happens pretty much to everyone starting this journey, it's happening to me too. My understand is its largely due to bad bacteria trying to feed off your food. I now believe the hardest part of starting the Peat journey is beating the bad bacteria, once you can do that, you stop the bacteria leeching off your nutrients, and you also can start to fend off the endotoxins that they release. Avoiding foods that can trigger them can be helpful, but ultimately the goal is to kill them. I'm still working on that myself, but about to try an iodine regimen to do so and I also have sodium acetate frequently. Apparently, avoiding iron fortified foods can be very helpful to avoid bacteria growth also. Anti biotics can work too but that's a last resort nuclear option, because that also kills all the beneficial bacteria. My understanding that anything that promotes acetic acid will help kill off bad bacteria while supporting good bacteria (fruit tends to be high in acetic acid).

The bloat can also happen if you suddenly have a large increase in salt / sodium probably.

 

[Arrade]

IF it's estrogen use something like an AI or estroban. Do not let that keep you in a catabolic cycle

 

[JustAGuy]

Thank you all a lot for your replies and information!!

@foodandtheworld did you do any exercise during your recovery?

I am wondering wether I can add some exercise currently. Thinking about a very minimal approach of like 2 times a week 30 minutes of strength training and walking for 30 minutes a day at minimum.

To try reduce estrogen I am taking an essential amino acid blend a few times a day, since my protein digestion is very bad. I also eat raw carrots and try to avoid fermentable foods. I will add cascara aswell occasionally since my bowel movements are very slow on this diet (mostly refined starch, potatoes, cooked fruit, grapes, juices and occasional milk/meat).

 

[foodandtheworld]

I didn't do any exercise at all in the beginning, but that was what worked best for me. Things might be different for you based on your own history. I had been quite malnourished/overstressed for a long time. In the earliest stage of my recovery, even a short walk (less than 30 minutes at a leisurely pace) would produce a strong stress response while I was trying to sleep (waking up with a pounding heart after just an hour or two of sleep). However, after about a month or so, I was able to go back on leisurely walks, and then, another two months or so, I could be much more active. I was able to play basketball and not get a stress response at that point. But I think it's best to be conservative in the beginning and focus completely on resting. After a little while, you can test your body's response. If you don't get a stress response or have hypothyroid symptoms worsen, and feel good afterwards, it's probably fine. But mainly, I just stuck to walking. Weight-lifting might be OK, if you're not going all-out on crazy maximum effort sets, doing those insane 20 rep squat sets with a fatiguing weight. Endurance exercise, though, I think should be avoided until you have fully recovered, however long that may take (1 year-2years?). I think the minimum approach is better right now.

As for bowel movements, mine improved pretty quickly. In the beginning they were a bit challenging, but I remember once my temperatures started to come up, they would be effortless. First time in my life I had 2 bowel movements in a day that weren't some kind of terrible reaction to food, but more like the body processing food/energy in the efficient way, and not attempting to squeeze out every atom for energy due to being so deprived. A true milestone, lol.

As for reducing estrogen, I don't have any first-hand experience with direct methods. As I mentioned before, from my suspicions based on Peat's writings, I think it may be helpful to trial progesterone as a way to oppose the estrogen that has been produced by the damaged tissues over the years from malnutrition. But as supplementing progesterone is already underdiscussed, supplementing in the context of refeeding is even less discussed, and in the context of being a man who is recovering, probably completely absent of discussion. But, Peat seems to think progesterone to be a very safe supplement. I just didn't attempt it at the time because making sure to eat enough was a significant change already in my life, and I didn't want to complicate things with progesterone and thyroid. But those two supplements may be helpful, based on what I understand from Peat's perspective on metabolism and hypothyroidism. However, food in the form of enough easy digestible calories, sufficient protein (at least 70-80g was good for me), and foods rich in vitamins and minerals (livers and canned oysters once a week), were the pillars. One thing that seems to entrap people is the lure of eating less the moment they start feeling better, out of fear of weight gain, but I think that can be dangerous and impair a full recovery. In that regard, I think the Homeodynamic book I mentioned is useful, as well as looking into the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. I would be happy to PM you some links that I saved that were useful in outlining the common experiences of recovery via refeeding.

 

[JustAGuy]

I didn't do any exercise at all in the beginning, but that was what worked best for me. Things might be different for you based on your own history. I had been quite malnourished/overstressed for a long time. In the earliest stage of my recovery, even a short walk (less than 30 minutes at a leisurely pace) would produce a strong stress response while I was trying to sleep (waking up with a pounding heart after just an hour or two of sleep). However, after about a month or so, I was able to go back on leisurely walks, and then, another two months or so, I could be much more active. I was able to play basketball and not get a stress response at that point. But I think it's best to be conservative in the beginning and focus completely on resting. After a little while, you can test your body's response. If you don't get a stress response or have hypothyroid symptoms worsen, and feel good afterwards, it's probably fine. But mainly, I just stuck to walking. Weight-lifting might be OK, if you're not going all-out on crazy maximum effort sets, doing those insane 20 rep squat sets with a fatiguing weight. Endurance exercise, though, I think should be avoided until you have fully recovered, however long that may take (1 year-2years?). I think the minimum approach is better right now.

As for bowel movements, mine improved pretty quickly. In the beginning they were a bit challenging, but I remember once my temperatures started to come up, they would be effortless. First time in my life I had 2 bowel movements in a day that weren't some kind of terrible reaction to food, but more like the body processing food/energy in the efficient way, and not attempting to squeeze out every atom for energy due to being so deprived. A true milestone, lol.

As for reducing estrogen, I don't have any first-hand experience with direct methods. As I mentioned before, from my suspicions based on Peat's writings, I think it may be helpful to trial progesterone as a way to oppose the estrogen that has been produced by the damaged tissues over the years from malnutrition. But as supplementing progesterone is already underdiscussed, supplementing in the context of refeeding is even less discussed, and in the context of being a man who is recovering, probably completely absent of discussion. But, Peat seems to think progesterone to be a very safe supplement. I just didn't attempt it at the time because making sure to eat enough was a significant change already in my life, and I didn't want to complicate things with progesterone and thyroid. But those two supplements may be helpful, based on what I understand from Peat's perspective on metabolism and hypothyroidism. However, food in the form of enough easy digestible calories, sufficient protein (at least 70-80g was good for me), and foods rich in vitamins and minerals (livers and canned oysters once a week), were the pillars. One thing that seems to entrap people is the lure of eating less the moment they start feeling better, out of fear of weight gain, but I think that can be dangerous and impair a full recovery. In that regard, I think the Homeodynamic book I mentioned is useful, as well as looking into the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. I would be happy to PM you some links that I saved that were useful in outlining the common experiences of recovery via refeeding.

Thank you for your reply.
Please PM me the links, I would be very interested in them!

I think one of the things you mentioned is very important, doing exercise without triggering the stress response. I find myself going overboard on adrenaline so quickly often. I always have to really hold myself back to prevent this.

 

[olive]

Thank you all a lot for your replies and information!!

@foodandtheworld did you do any exercise during your recovery?

I am wondering wether I can add some exercise currently. Thinking about a very minimal approach of like 2 times a week 30 minutes of strength training and walking for 30 minutes a day at minimum.

To try reduce estrogen I am taking an essential amino acid blend a few times a day, since my protein digestion is very bad. I also eat raw carrots and try to avoid fermentable foods. I will add cascara aswell occasionally since my bowel movements are very slow on this diet (mostly refined starch, potatoes, cooked fruit, grapes, juices and occasional milk/meat).

Definitely do exercise.

Just don’t go to failure and always breath through your nose.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Just rest and take easy walks. If it continues for months then worry.

 

[JustAGuy]

I am going to be changing some stuff to my approach since it feels like I am gaining weight way too quickly. I will try to use a more moderate/slower paced approach rather than stuffing myself getting fat.

I will have 3 meals daily, basically starch based meals with a bit of cooked fruit. Drinking fruit juices or eating a lot of fruit lowers my temperature and feels too stimulating while starch increases it a lot more and makes me feel relaxed afterwards. I assume this is better so I will focus on the starch. I will lower calories a little aswell and add some non stressful walking throughout the day. Protein always makes me feel bad and lowers my temperature and gives me adrenaline feelings, so I will keep this rather low for a little while. To get some minerals in I will eat brown rice (soaked for 1h then cooked for 1h to easy digestible mush) at least once a day. I will also drink gerolsteiner (400mg calcium per liter) instead of regular water.

 

[fradon]

Hello,

In an effort to increase my resting heartrate (usually 30-35) and improve my digestion I have stopped all exercise and increased my calorie intake by 400 to 3400 calories (6’6 male 24 age 180 lbs).

My midsection is basically pregnant suddenly, holding a massive amount of water. I went from having a veiny 6-pack where you could grab only skin to being a balloon, can still not grab any fat so I know it is water weight.

I am wondering what I should do? Just keep going? Besides the massive water retention I feel pretty decent. Have I overworked my body and is it trying to recover?

you have successfully shut down your thyroid and adrenals by raising calories and boosting insulin. you are ready for hibernation.

try some fiber foods like old fashioned oatmeal that can pull some of that water out. avoid carbs for a while and even vegetables if you have issues with bloat.

off balanced electrolytes can also cause issues so you may want to play around with sodium/ cal, potasium

 

[JustAGuy]

Just posting an update since I figured out what causes my water retention now. Perhaps useful for anyone else to know in case they have similar problems in the future.

It seems ANY sodium or protein intake will cause water retention, while tons of sugar + potassium removes it.
Literally had tons of water dissapear (yet didn't need to go to the restroom?) by eating a 1kg watermelon. My whole face becomes different, actually scared me, my face looks too lean when I am not bloated by water rention, very sunken in cheekbones, motivates me to gain some weight again.

I tested it again now by taking protein and I bloat up again. Similar when I just add salt to things.

Does this mean I have some sort of potassium deficiency maybe? I don't know how big reserves of potassium are in the body?

Drinking tons of water does nothing by the way, just makes me pee clear all the time without a change in water retention.

If I eat only high potassium fruits all day I don't really crave salt either, it is when I start eating proteins that I get a bit of a salt craving. On just fruits none.

I will try to get my hands on some potassium supplement if I can and try to ingest a lot of this simultaneously with either protein or salt, will update in the future after I have managed to do this.

 

[Vinny]

Just posting an update since I figured out what causes my water retention now. Perhaps useful for anyone else to know in case they have similar problems in the future.

It seems ANY sodium or protein intake will cause water retention, while tons of sugar + potassium removes it.
Literally had tons of water dissapear (yet didn't need to go to the restroom?) by eating a 1kg watermelon. My whole face becomes different, actually scared me, my face looks too lean when I am not bloated by water rention, very sunken in cheekbones, motivates me to gain some weight again.

I tested it again now by taking protein and I bloat up again. Similar when I just add salt to things.

Does this mean I have some sort of potassium deficiency maybe? I don't know how big reserves of potassium are in the body?

Drinking tons of water does nothing by the way, just makes me pee clear all the time without a change in water retention.

If I eat only high potassium fruits all day I don't really crave salt either, it is when I start eating proteins that I get a bit of a salt craving. On just fruits none.

I will try to get my hands on some potassium supplement if I can and try to ingest a lot of this simultaneously with either protein or salt, will update in the future after I have managed to do this.

did u make the experiment, man?

 

[tankasnowgod]

To try reduce estrogen I am taking an essential amino acid blend a few times a day, since my protein digestion is very bad. I also eat raw carrots and try to avoid fermentable foods. I will add cascara aswell occasionally since my bowel movements are very slow on this diet (mostly refined starch, potatoes, cooked fruit, grapes, juices and occasional milk/meat).

Where the problematic Aminos part of this blend? Trypotophan, Methionine, Cystine, Hisditine?

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Just posting an update since I figured out what causes my water retention now. Perhaps useful for anyone else to know in case they have similar problems in the future.

It seems ANY sodium or protein intake will cause water retention, while tons of sugar + potassium removes it.
Literally had tons of water dissapear (yet didn't need to go to the restroom?) by eating a 1kg watermelon. My whole face becomes different, actually scared me, my face looks too lean when I am not bloated by water rention, very sunken in cheekbones, motivates me to gain some weight again.

I tested it again now by taking protein and I bloat up again. Similar when I just add salt to things.

Does this mean I have some sort of potassium deficiency maybe? I don't know how big reserves of potassium are in the body?

Drinking tons of water does nothing by the way, just makes me pee clear all the time without a change in water retention.

If I eat only high potassium fruits all day I don't really crave salt either, it is when I start eating proteins that I get a bit of a salt craving. On just fruits none.

I will try to get my hands on some potassium supplement if I can and try to ingest a lot of this simultaneously with either protein or salt, will update in the future after I have managed to do this.

You are probably Salt-Sensitive and that is Sodium-Edema.2 to3 grams NaCl at max.
There will be further problems down the road otherwise,but that is just my hunch.