Massaging fasica in scalp promotes hair growth (?)

[Jack Earth]

I think the ideas from Ray and Danny provides tools to reliably stop hair loss in its tracks, namely getting sunshine, taking some aspirin and drinking milk.

Young men can easily arrest hair loss, but when the hair loss has been going on for several years, it's very hard and involved to undo the damage. I think Rob English, and the research on red light therapy are some of the best evidence available to indicate how to reverse the changes to the scalp.

You dont think dermaneedling is as effective for fibrosis and calcification as red light and massage?
All the results I've seen involved minoxidil but I wonder how it would work on it's own

 

[PurpleHeart]

if it was systemic then local application of botox wouldn't alleviate the issue

my argument is that mpb is entirely about tension in and around the head. you can argue that all manner of things cause this tension and thus the tension is inherently 'systemic' but the actual mechanism that is suffocating hair follicles begins and ends, imo, around the skull.

everything else just seems to be a case of how well you can subjectively handle that tension, before you go bald

maybe i'm being pedantic about the words, but my literal meaning is that the galea, by it's very nature becomes deformed due to LOCAL tension that causes LOCAL hypoxia. i have yet to see any evidence of someone correcting this deformation without some kind of local mechano-therapy, because i do not believe a well functioning system is capable of fixing the fibrosis it created to protect itself, certainly not with any expediency

in short, i do not think mpb is a systemic issue any more than i believe a thirty year old surgical scar is a systemic issue.

Let me provide some examples of what I mean, an example of non systemic skin damage for example is getting burned by a hot metal, this is not systemic, it can be treated locally and will not return, an example of systemic skin damage is a herpes rash, you might be able to treat a herpes rash locally but it will be pointless since you are not addressing the real problem you are only fighting a symptom, the rash can be formed in different locations on the body but it's root cause is the herpes virus and if you don't address that then it will always come back.

I do not think the massage techniques are important because you are ultimately wasting your time on a treatment that doesn't address the root cause of hair loss,
hair loss itself is only a symptom of an unknown cascade, it would be a much better investment of our time to actually discover the root cause instead of wasting our time on massage techniques that will do nothing to heal and will only slow down a single symptom at best, now if you think you can make significant improvement for your hair then by all means go for it, but I don't think it works in any valuable way, if it did then we would have some proof, but you can read in many forums where people tried different massage techniques for many months even years with very little if any improvement.

Many people are desperate with hair loss and end up ruining their lives with dangerous substances, and/or fall pray to snakeoils and alternative treatments bull****,
if we are to find the actual mechanism then we need to address the root cause and we will actually not only cure the hair loss symptom but we may actually make our health much better, but this requires good research and a lucid analysis of the condition, and I think that narrow and mechanistic views are not really going to do us any good.

 

[mrchibbs]

You dont think dermaneedling is as effective for fibrosis and calcification as red light and massage?
All the results I've seen involved minoxidil but I wonder how it would work on it's own

A lot of people experience scarring with dermarolling. The reason being, they don't fix their metabolic problems (which involves thyroid deficiency), and without a good metabolism/thyroid function is it nearly impossible for optimal wound healing to take place. In that situation, dermarolling is risky. If the basics are taken care of, and dermarolling sessions are sufficiently spaced (10 days to 2 weeks at least), then proper healing may take place. Red light helps that process too.

So I think massage + red light therapy (which helps wound healing, and has a beneficial effect in so-called "AGA" according to many studies on pubmed) is the best and safest approach, once the systemic issues have been addressed. The problem is that therapeutic/cosmetic benefits probably require long-term and consistent effort.

I think minoxidil is just a disaster, doesn't fix anything and causes a variety of other problems. It does provide decent cosmetic results, but even there it can't regrow fibrotic areas. And having to pour that chemical over your head everyday for the rest of your life is not great. I'm not interested in that, personally.

 

[mrchibbs]

I think tobacco is not exclusively bad, there are some potential benefits. If I was a smoker I'd try to find organic tobacco mix and I'd roll my own cigarettes (with filter of course).

 

[mrchibbs]

@PurpleHeart

I have a slightly different take. Hair loss is caused by systemic processes which drive certain changes locally in the scalp. Tension, inflammation and fibrosis are all part of it.

Improving metabolic health by eating good foods, removing irritants and getting enough sunshine, while limiting stress in general can arrest the degenerative process.

However, after a few years of the hair loss process, the pathological changes in the scalp are not likely to be reversed without local/mechanical stimulation of the tissues. I've seen instances of regrowth without all of that, for instance in a 70+ year old man taking spironolactone, but generally, stimulation via massage and red light therapy is a sensible approach, as long as the basic systemic problems are at least somewhat taken care of.

In his book, Rob English makes an analogy to a broken ankle which I think is quite apt. His father broke his ankle and didn't receive any treatment. Eventually his ankle healed but badly and it was full of fibrotic tissue. It didn't heal on its own. Physical therapy and deep tissue massage was necessary to bring it back to its original state.

@rei had a good explanation early on in this thread, but basically the same thing happens with the scalp in hair loss. Under the influence of stress hormones, tension in surrounding scalp tissues increases which leads to inflammation and over time, fibrosis of the tissues. You can fix the problem and many do, by improving their lifestyle (sunshine, food, sleep etc.) and stress levels (getting a better job, new companion etc.) but the scalp likely won't heal to the extent that hair loss is reversed satisfactorily.

Some rare people experience regrowth without any massage, in some accounts I've seen over the years, guys who do so overhaul their lives altogether and go live in a sunny paradise somewhere. That could stimulate metabolic health to an extent that regenerative processes in the scalp can operate at the high intensity typical of a child. But that's hardly possible for most people.

 

[Jack Earth]

A lot of people experience scarring with dermarolling. The reason being, they don't fix their metabolic problems (which involves thyroid deficiency), and without a good metabolism/thyroid function is it nearly impossible for optimal wound healing to take place. In that situation, dermarolling is risky. If the basics are taken care of, and dermarolling sessions are sufficiently spaced (10 days to 2 weeks at least), then proper healing may take place. Red light helps that process too.

So I think massage + red light therapy (which helps wound healing, and has a beneficial effect in so-called "AGA" according to many studies on pubmed) is the best and safest approach, once the systemic issues have been addressed. The problem is that therapeutic/cosmetic benefits probably require long-term and consistent effort.

I think minoxidil is just a disaster, doesn't fix anything and causes a variety of other problems. It does provide decent cosmetic results, but even there it can't regrow fibrotic areas. And having to pour that chemical over your head everyday for the rest of your life is not great. I'm not interested in that, personally.

Yes plus I'd worry dermarolling it will make it go more systemic.
Red light plus massage sounds safer however it's going to be expensive plus hard work. But rob did say the daily massage isnt a lifetime thing. Just first few years then it can go down to once or twice a week .
If money is no issue for someone.. hiring a massage therapist would be a game changer. Would make the whole thing fun and relaxing.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes plus I'd worry dermarolling it will make it go more systemic.
Red light plus massage sounds safer however it's going to be expensive plus hard work. But rob did say the daily massage isnt a lifetime thing. Just first few years then it can go down to once or twice a week .
If money is no issue for someone.. hiring a massage therapist would be a game changer. Would make the whole thing fun and relaxing.

For sure. Get someone to massage your scalp and back twice a day for a year. That'd be so great hahaha

But for sure massage is not a lifetime thing at all. Once you undo the damage that was caused earlier and you maintain and pro-metabolic lifestyle while being aware of the pitfalls of stress and other factors, you won't need to massage really because inflammation/fibrosis will not set back in. Easier said than done, but pretty straightforward when you think about it.

 

[Sweet Meat]

the rash can be formed in different locations on the body but it's root cause is the herpes virus and if you don't address that then it will always come back.

you just used this as an example of systemic disease to compare it to hair loss...

maybe i haven't mentioned it enough...but male pattern baldness occurs in the same place, every...single...time. it's in the name. so...the obvious conclusion is that the root cause might be...specific to that location, right? yet you conclude it must be something else, because of herpes...

it's like you need to perform mental gymnastics to avoid getting my point lol

I do not think the massage techniques are important because you are ultimately wasting your time on a treatment that doesn't address the root cause of hair loss,

yeah...again with the root cause...that nobody can figure out but must exist because raisins

hair loss itself is only a symptom of an unknown cascade,

it'd be nice if you could explain why scalp tension isn't the beginning of that cascade, instead of just insisting over, and over and over again that nobody knows and we must continue on, blindly hoping for some miracle cure to the disease we can't even be sure exists

it would be a much better investment of our time to actually discover the root cause instead of wasting our time on massage techniques that will do nothing to heal and will only slow down a single symptom at best, now if you think you can make significant improvement for your hair then by all means go for it, but I don't think it works in any valuable way, if it did then we would have some proof, but you can read in many forums where people tried different massage techniques for many months even years with very little if any improvement.

i've seen plenty of results, clearly documented across websites and studies.

i'm not even trying to convince you...i'm still just waiting for you to explain why the root cause of hair loss isn't tension around the scalp, but instead some mystery villain like the kaiser sozer of hair follicles...

Many people are desperate with hair loss and end up ruining their lives with dangerous substances, and/or fall pray to snakeoils and alternative treatments bull****,

massage is the least invasive treatment known...yet you're actively discouraging people, stating that if it works, it's a fluke, but that it does nothing to fix the unknown problem you insist everyone has, because....it's not mainstream?

i get ya. if massage worked big pharma would be on that like fly on ***t, telling everyone how to cure their hair loss for free, no longer peddling treatments and surgeries to the sad, desperate people that just want someone else to fix their problems, right?

you don't like massage, i understand. you're absolutely convinced that there is a cheeky little demon pulling out your hair every night, it must seem completely out of your control; you're powerless to do anything and there's no reason to assume massage is going to save you. you'd have more luck praying to god, amiright?

all i was looking for is evidence or at the very least reason, to back up your position. i am officially giving up on that :P

if we are to find the actual mechanism then we need to address the root cause and we will actually not only cure the hair loss symptom but we may actually make our health much better, but this requires good research and a lucid analysis of the condition, and I think that narrow and mechanistic views are not really going to do us any good.

you can say i have a narrow view, but at least i provide logic, reason and hard evidence to back up and explain my position

while your argument is akin to god putting dinosaur bones in the ground to test the faith of the devout...despite all the evidence pointing to scalp tension causing swelling, hair loss and fibrosis, it's not that, because it's not that. or something

 

[Jack Earth]

For sure. Get someone to massage your scalp and back twice a day for a year. That'd be so great hahaha

But for sure massage is not a lifetime thing at all. Once you undo the damage that was caused earlier and you maintain and pro-metabolic lifestyle while being aware of the pitfalls of stress and other factors, you won't need to massage really because inflammation/fibrosis will not set back in. Easier said than done, but pretty straightforward when you think about it.

Is it safe to say that you believe scalp tension is ultimately caused by high cortisol and prolactin?

 

[mrchibbs]

Is it safe to say that you believe scalp tension is ultimately caused by high cortisol and prolactin?

Not just. I think it's a host of effects driving the pathology.

 

[Jack Earth]

Not just. I think it's a host of effects driving the pathology.

I think this where people make the mistake,they focus on only one possible cause and cure instead of possibly several at the same time.
For example the poster rei thinks it's only posture nothing else.
I like his posture posts I would focus on that, plus the type of stuff you post about with stress hormones both at the same time.
Robs work and Roddy work can be complimentary to each other instead of choosing a side and completely disregarding the other.

 

[TheSir]

tell that to an engineer

If we were talking about a machine, the engineer would be right for disagreeing. A machine is isolated parts interacting together. You're one, unified system in which any one thing affects every other thing.

if i create local hypoxia, the cells experiencing this stress do not cause the rest of the body to take up less oxygen or produce less c02.

To the contrary: when you create local hypoxia, you cause a stress response that negatively influences the oxygenation of the whole body. But this is really tangential, as it deals with an issue that is functionally opposite to our subject.

this is the third time you've devolved into semantics so i'm just going to leave you to it

When one's understanding of an issue is distorted by their application of poorly defined concepts, the most effective way to proceed forward is to help them make their arguments semantically sound. You are, in essence, being blinded by your own semantics, which is why you are arguing with several people all of whom who're trying to make you see the same exact thing.

 

[Sweet Meat]

You are, in essence, being blinded by your own semantics, which is why you are arguing with several people all of whom who're trying to make you see the same exact thing.

compelling stuff

consider me convinced, chum

 

[PurpleHeart]

You are all forgetting that frontal hair loss also appears in species of monkeys and even lions so the posture theory is pretty lame.

There are people with beautiful bone development and great posture that are bald and hunchbacks with very bad posture and bone development that have a lot of hair, until you decide to actually take all data and run a general analysis instead of trying to pinpoint needles in haystacks you will never understand the mechanism,

This is how analysis works you go from the many to the few, not the other way around.

otherwise you are just searching for proof to prove your narrow scope.

 

[mrchibbs]

I think this where people make the mistake,they focus on only one possible cause and cure instead of possibly several at the same time.
For example the poster rei thinks it's only posture nothing else.
I like his posture posts I would focus on that, plus the type of stuff you post about with stress hormones both at the same time.
Robs work and Roddy work can be complimentary to each other instead of choosing a side and completely disregarding the other.

My understanding after thinking about hair loss these past few years is that the mechanical characteristics of an individual (posture, scalp mobility, tension, skull size you name it) all modulate the severity of the hair loss, but the process is initiated by a cascade of effects, with varying degrees for each individuals.

Some guys have naturally mobile scalps, with very little natural tension in the neck/shoulder scalps. These guys will bald at a much slower rate even if they have the same metabolic problems. There are other aspects of the physiology which makes hair loss more susceptible in certain people.

That being said, Rob's research has highlighted the role of localized, mechanical therapy to compensate for the deleterious changes in the scalp. Nobody loses their hair for lack of massaging, but massaging can help reverse some of the factors which prevent hair growth on the galea.

All the research I've seen highlights how the process is so incredibly multifactorial and there are slightly different pathways for each individual. Aldosterone, cortisol, prolactin, serotonin, estrogen, prostaglandins etc. all affect hair in different ways. It's for this reason that a 70 something man taking spironolactone experienced a regrowth of hair after being bald for 40+ years, but that wouldn't necessary be effective in somebody else. I linked that study on this forum before.

We all carry a baggage of inherited, transgenerational effects (including for instance deficiency in certain minerals in previous generations, or the diet of our mom during pregnancy) these things can trigger lasting effects in the form of hormonal imprinting which can leave a certain individual to have chronically higher serotonin than the average man. For this individual, an anti-serotonin drug may trigger regrowth of a bald head while it will do little for the other guy. Danny wrote an article about this with references several years ago.

It's a complex dynamic and that's why every person experiencing this should focus on their own history, looking at blood tests, and figuring out which foods are good and aren't, and experiment with a certain fervor. A lot of things are going wrong in an individual losing their hair prematurely, and often the lifestyle changes need to be quite exhaustive, especially the older we get.

At a younger age, it's comparatively easier to stop the process, and if it is arrested within one to two years, before extensive fibrosis has taken hold, generally all the hair that was lost comes back. When you wait a few years and the degenerative process is allowed to go on, that's where it gets tricky and you need to use more difficult therapies like Rob's massages.

 

[ALS]

Homeless men dont have postural damage?

Homeless men (and women) are very often alcoholics. Male alcoholics have been noted to have good hair. It apparently has something to do with circulation and the fact that alcohol aids in that. There's an alcohol / caffeine combo called Caffeinol Ethanol plus caffeine (caffeinol) for treatment of ischemic stroke: preclinical experience - PubMed which is beneficial for stroke victims.

 

[Jack Earth]

Homeless men (and women) are very often alcoholics. Male alcoholics have been noted to have good hair. It apparently has something to do with circulation and the fact that alcohol aids in that. There's an alcohol / caffeine combo called Caffeinol Ethanol plus caffeine (caffeinol) for treatment of ischemic stroke: preclinical experience - PubMed which is beneficial for stroke victims.

Interesting. Did you read Reis post in this thread? He believes the alcohol helps disolve the calcification

 

[PurpleHeart]

Interesting. Did you read Reis post in this thread? He believes the alcohol helps disolve the calcification

my hair thinned out considerably when I was drinking a lot and eating very few calories I don't think alcohol is good for hair at least not in the massive amounts consumed by alcoholics. homeless people probably have good hair because they do not compete for anything they have no personality armor, also they have very healthy circadian rythm, get a lot of sunlight and have normal amounts of stress instead of the constant low grade stress that modern life causes.

I think that homeless people let go instead of giving up, giving up increases serotonin and makes you feel defeated,

letting go just frees you from stress through the realization that modern life cultural stress is not real stress it's made up, you don't need to play the game of modern culture to survive on this planet and you don't need modern culture to be happy either.

quite the contrary actually, wasting two thirds of your life to become someone that society respects doesn't make one happy or satisfied.


I've lived on this planet for almost 29 years now and the majority of time that I spent happy was camping in the woods or spending time in the wilderness with my dog etc. nature makes me happy, I can literally spend days in a forest walking around building stuff playing around building fires etc.

anything else is fake bull****.

 

[Jack Earth]

my hair thinned out considerably when I was drinking a lot and eating very few calories I don't think alcohol is good for hair at least not in the massive amounts consumed by alcoholics. homeless people probably have good hair because they do not compete for anything they have no personality armor, also they have very healthy circadian rythm, get a lot of sunlight and have normal amounts of stress instead of the constant low grade stress that modern life causes.

I think that homeless people let go instead of giving up, giving up increases serotonin and makes you feel defeated,

letting go just frees you from stress through the realization that modern life cultural stress is not real stress it's made up, you don't need to play the game of modern culture to survive on this planet and you don't need modern culture to be happy either.

quite the contrary actually, wasting two thirds of your life to become someone that society respects doesn't make one happy or satisfied.


I've lived on this planet for almost 29 years now and the majority of time that I spent happy was camping in the woods or spending time in the wilderness with my dog etc. nature makes me happy, I can literally spend days in a forest walking around building stuff playing around building fires etc.

anything else is fake bull****.

Nah. I've seen cracked out homeless in disgusting crowded cities with full hair.
They are constantly getting woken up by police and moved and no nature to go chill in these cities.
They sleeping during the day, not on some perfect sleep schedule.
The alcohol theory makes way more sense than they don't have stress.

 

[PurpleHeart]

Nah. I've seen cracked out homeless in disgusting crowded cities with full hair.
They are constantly getting woken up by police and moved and no nature to go chill in these cities.
They sleeping during the day, not on some perfect sleep schedule.
The alcohol theory makes way more sense than they don't have stress.

The massive increase in shbg probably plays a role but I doubt you can stop hair loss by taking up drinking and even if you could destroying your life to have hair is not an option really, but it could reveal a mechanism of action.