Massaging fasica in scalp promotes hair growth (?)

rr1

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i don't think you understand what stress means

if i press my pinky finger onto my knee cap, i'm applying pressure, which creates stress...so your argument is what? my little pinky now causes male pattern baldness because...stress is always systemic, right? local pathology is arbitrary, in your own words...
You're confusing the word stress. There are multiple meanings of this word in the English language.

The one you gave an example of would be defined as 'pressure or tension exerted on a material object'

However, the one we are referring to when talking about causing a systematic problem would be defined as 'a state of mental or emotional strain or tension resulting from adverse or demanding circumstances'.
 

Sweet Meat

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So are you interested only in this arbitrary percentage that you seem to have made up, that supposedly experiences hair loss without any other problems or are you only interested in the aesthetic decrease, of hair loss without really wanting to solve the root cause?

Because I don't see any other reason why massaging would appear appealing at all.

nope all i'm asking for is the evidence that's lead you to conclude with 100% certainty that mpb is a systemic issue

i'm saying the root cause of hair loss is mechanical stress/tension around the skull that creates edema and reduces oxygenation, leading to scarring and calcified tissue, you're saying that the root cause is unknown but it's definitely a full body problem because of some correlations you've read about

i also didn't say massage was appealing. i said it was effective.

ime hair loss and hair regrowth are two different things, so you can cure one without fixing the other, hence why people get regrowth and still lose ground, while others stop their hair loss but regrow nothing. from a mechanics point of view, if you stop the damage caused by prostaglandins and dht in edemic tissue, your hair loss stops...but it won't regrow because there is literally no room for the hair shaft to expand due to the damage that's already been caused

akin to burning down a house. putting out the fire won't magically rebuild all the ***t that went up in smoke. that takes effort. but you're right, if you stop your hair loss i'm fairly certain massage will do nothing for your general well being, besides regrow your hair and possibly improve your confidence/well being/social life etc
 

Sweet Meat

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You're confusing the word stress. There are multiple meanings of this word in the English language.

The one you gave an example of would be defined as 'pressure or tension exerted on a material object'

However, the one we are referring to when talking about causing a systematic problem would be defined as 'a state of mental or emotional strain or tension resulting from adverse or demanding circumstances'.

in the context i used, applying mechanical stress creates metabolic stress

test it for yourself. apply pressure to any part of your body and watch the blood,lymph and oxygen vacate the area. do that for long enough and the tissue literally begins to die via necrosis

to further test the theory, wear long tight socks for a new months and watch the hair on your legs disappear and reappear when you switch to ankle socks
 

TheSir

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i don't think you understand what stress means

if i press my pinky finger onto my knee cap, i'm applying pressure, which creates stress...so your argument is what? my little pinky now causes male pattern baldness because...stress is always systemic, right?
I don't think you do. Consider that anything that disrupts the intended functioning of metabolism results in metabolic stress. To humor your humorous quip, inflicting yourself pain or overexerting yourself (which ever you're implying) does indeed result in a stress reaction, and such reaction is inherently systemic, as it is based on substances that circulate throughout your whole system and alter its functioning. In other words, there is no such thing as localized stress in a holistic and inter-connected system. Peat wouldn't emphasize the importance of negating stress so much if it didn't have a systemic effect.
 

TheSir

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i'm saying the root cause of hair loss is mechanical stress/tension around the skull that creates edema and reduces oxygenation, leading to scarring and calcified tissue, you're saying that the root cause is unknown but it's definitely a full body problem because of some correlations you've read about
It doesn't have to be an either-or. Consider that in order for scalp fibrosis to appear as a result of mechanical tension, the body would already have to be in a weakened state of functioning that enabled such circumstances to evolve.
 

Sweet Meat

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I don't think you do. Consider that anything that disrupts the intended functioning of metabolism results in metabolic stress. To humor your humorous quip, inflicting yourself pain or overexerting yourself (which ever you're implying) does indeed result in a stress reaction, and such reaction is inherently systemic, as it is based on substances that circulate throughout your whole system and alter its functioning.

that's flat out wrong

if i create local hypoxia, the cells experiencing this stress do not cause the rest of the body to take up less oxygen or produce less c02. the effects are entirely restricted to the location where pressure and thus hypoxia are being experienced and return to homeostasis as they move away from the area...


In other words, there is no such thing as localized stress in a holistic system.

haha

tell that to an engineer

this is the third time you've devolved into semantics so i'm just going to leave you to it
 

PurpleHeart

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nope all i'm asking for is the evidence that's lead you to conclude with 100% certainty that mpb is a systemic issue

i'm saying the root cause of hair loss is mechanical stress/tension around the skull that creates edema and reduces oxygenation, leading to scarring and calcified tissue, you're saying that the root cause is unknown but it's definitely a full body problem because of some correlations you've read about

i also didn't say massage was appealing. i said it was effective.

ime hair loss and hair regrowth are two different things, so you can cure one without fixing the other, hence why people get regrowth and still lose ground, while others stop their hair loss but regrow nothing. from a mechanics point of view, if you stop the damage caused by prostaglandins and dht in edemic tissue, your hair loss stops...but it won't regrow because there is literally no room for the hair shaft to expand due to the damage that's already been caused

akin to burning down a house. putting out the fire won't magically rebuild all the ***t that went up in smoke. that takes effort. but you're right, if you stop your hair loss i'm fairly certain massage will do nothing for your general well being, besides regrow your hair and possibly improve your confidence/well being/social life etc
We don't have any evidence DHT causes hair loss, we just know that lack of 5-ar-type 2 prevents baldness and 5ar inhibitors can slow down or stop it,
but 5ar enzymes catalyze many different reactions not just DHT, there are many people with very high androgen levels not going bald and there are literally women with borderline zero DHT levels with severe hair loss so the androgen hypothesis means nothing to me.

I am interested in the actual mechanism that causes hair loss not the resulting scalp conditions, rubbing my head violently every day of my life to force blood flow back in my head is not an appealing idea to me cause like I said it's a mechanistic and primitive approach to a systemic problem.

Now if you don't think that hair loss is systemic then what do you think it is? some people just spontaneously get tight galea skin and start losing their hair for no reason?

then how do you explain the fact that it can be affected by medication, genetic differences, sex, castration etc?
 

Sweet Meat

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Now if you don't think that hair loss is systemic then what do you think it is? some people just spontaneously get tight galea skin and start losing their hair for no reason?

i've said already

i think the other dude even made the same lapse in logic you just did..."if it's not systemic, then you must be saying it happens for no reason!"

i think different experiences/problems are experienced in different ways. some people become tense, some become lethargic, some become angry and hostile...if i had to guess, i'd say people who become tense/controlling are more likely to hold stress in and around their head/neck and as a result more likely to experience mpb early on

then how do you explain the fact that it can be affected by medication, genetic differences, sex, castration etc?

medications often work via npl, cox or nrf2 pathways managing inflammation either by turning things off or by restricting them entirely, which can have a lot of impact on hair, especially on people young enough where fibrosis hasn't gone full ham.

genetic differences are just that - people handle stress differently, some put on weight, some get angry and let it all out, others get tense and hold onto it for ages

as for sex, i think women have a lot of protection via progesterone, though if you don't believe androgens are at play then i would argue they also have an advantage because high heels + breasts + smaller builds = women in general have far superior posture to men, and thus are far less likely to hold stress around their heads, the point of maximum tension.

castration doesn't cure hair loss, it simply prevents it if done early enough. again, back to my point that hair loss and regrowth are two different issues
 

PurpleHeart

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i've said already

i think the other dude even made the same lapse in logic you just did..."if it's not systemic, then you must be saying it happens for no reason!"

i think different experiences/problems are experienced in different ways. some people become tense, some become lethargic, some become angry and hostile...if i had to guess, i'd say people who become tense/controlling are more likely to hold stress in and around their head/neck and as a result more likely to experience mpb early on



medications often work via npl, cox or nrf2 pathways managing inflammation either by turning things off or by restricting them entirely, which can have a lot of impact on hair, especially on people young enough where fibrosis hasn't gone full ham.

genetic differences are just that - people handle stress differently, some put on weight, some get angry and let it all out, others get tense and hold onto it for ages

as for sex, i think women have a lot of protection via progesterone, though if you don't believe androgens are at play then i would argue they also have an advantage because high heels + breasts + smaller builds = women in general have far superior posture to men, and thus are far less likely to hold stress around their heads, the point of maximum tension.

castration doesn't cure hair loss, it simply prevents it if done early enough. again, back to my point that hair loss and regrowth are two different issues
I haven't made any lapses in logic you are the one who makes no sense, you say it's not systemic but you think stress and inflammation causes it ?

Then it's systemic!

I can't make sense of what you say.

Systemic Definition -----> Relating to or affecting the entire body or an entire organism.
 

rr1

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i've said already

i think the other dude even made the same lapse in logic you just did..."if it's not systemic, then you must be saying it happens for no reason!"

i think different experiences/problems are experienced in different ways. some people become tense, some become lethargic, some become angry and hostile...if i had to guess, i'd say people who become tense/controlling are more likely to hold stress in and around their head/neck and as a result more likely to experience mpb early on



medications often work via npl, cox or nrf2 pathways managing inflammation either by turning things off or by restricting them entirely, which can have a lot of impact on hair, especially on people young enough where fibrosis hasn't gone full ham.

genetic differences are just that - people handle stress differently, some put on weight, some get angry and let it all out, others get tense and hold onto it for ages

as for sex, i think women have a lot of protection via progesterone, though if you don't believe androgens are at play then i would argue they also have an advantage because high heels + breasts + smaller builds = women in general have far superior posture to men, and thus are far less likely to hold stress around their heads, the point of maximum tension.

castration doesn't cure hair loss, it simply prevents it if done early enough. again, back to my point that hair loss and regrowth are two different issues
Do you think it could be systematic in the sense that stress leads to hypothyroidism, and when the body is in a hypothyroid state, it can’t retain magnesium? Ray Peat has always made it clear that the body/muscles can never get into a relaxed state under magnesium deficiency.
 

Sweet Meat

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Do you think it could be systematic in the sense that stress leads to hypothyroidism, and when the body is in a hypothyroid state, it can’t retain magnesium? Ray Peat has always made it clear that the body/muscles can never get into a relaxed state under magnesium deficiency.
i think good metabolism is required for good regrowth, especially around the temples (mechanically the human temple is the point of maximum tension with or without mpb simply from an architectural pov)

i do think stress (in particular cortisol) is at the root cause of male pattern baldness, but the reason is because chronic cortisol will deplete the adrenals, weakening the infrastructure and causing structural tensions that ultimately lead to high blood pressure, lymphedema and restricted oxygen to the peripheries

i think hair loss in mpb context is more comparable to something like raynaud's syndrome, without the muscular advantages of fingers to avoid the inevitable swelling
 

Sweet Meat

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I haven't made any lapses in logic you are the one who makes no sense, you say it's not systemic but you think stress and inflammation causes it ?

Then it's systemic!

I can't make sense of what you say.

Systemic Definition -----> Relating to or affecting the entire body or an entire organism.

if it was systemic then local application of botox wouldn't alleviate the issue

my argument is that mpb is entirely about tension in and around the head. you can argue that all manner of things cause this tension and thus the tension is inherently 'systemic' but the actual mechanism that is suffocating hair follicles begins and ends, imo, around the skull.

everything else just seems to be a case of how well you can subjectively handle that tension, before you go bald

maybe i'm being pedantic about the words, but my literal meaning is that the galea, by it's very nature becomes deformed due to LOCAL tension that causes LOCAL hypoxia. i have yet to see any evidence of someone correcting this deformation without some kind of local mechano-therapy, because i do not believe a well functioning system is capable of fixing the fibrosis it created to protect itself, certainly not with any expediency

in short, i do not think mpb is a systemic issue any more than i believe a thirty year old surgical scar is a systemic issue.
 
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No one said that lack of massage is why people are losing hair. That's equivalent to saying lack of changing your tyre is the reason why you got a flat tyre on your car. I mean, there aren't even words that cover how ridiculous that statement is.

You can apply Minoxidil in 2 minutes per day and get far better results. Many, many people have tried this. I'm always stunned when someone brings up things like this which have been on hair loss boards for probably 20 years, as if they were something new. There are people who go to insane lengths for hair, and there have definitely been people who have tried massages. If they were that effective, we'd know.

botox cures mpb, mechanotherapy cures mpb, massage cures mpb, pge2/ep3 agonists sure af make a big impact, dermaneedling and fire even seem to work

Yes, so many cures, and yet so many balding people. Curious.
I knew an Italian guy on a hair loss Discord who massaged daily for weeks, he was super enthusiastic about it, and kept attacking everyone who didn't do it. Well, after a while he realised he was still losing hair. He got Botox treatment as well at a local clinic and that didn't stop his hair loss either. Later on he just became depressed and left.

PGE2 has shoddy evidence at best. There is only Westonci on HLT, whose results have been replicated by no one.

Dermaneedling only works in conjuction with Minox.

Fire? Yeah, let me get right on that.
 

Sweet Meat

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Yes, so many cures, and yet so many balding people. Curious.

i know, it's almost like there are people who are so lazy they would rather spend their days lamenting their problems than applying 30mins of effort to fixing them

go figure

I knew an Italian guy on a hair loss Discord who massaged daily for weeks, he was super enthusiastic about it, and kept attacking everyone who didn't do it. Well, after a while he realised he was still losing hair. He got Botox treatment as well at a local clinic and that didn't stop his hair loss either. Later on he just became depressed and left.

weeks? how dedicated of him

do you have any more anecdotes of other people who have failed to improve their situations? i prefer clinical studies, hence why i brought up botox


PGE2 has shoddy evidence at best. There is only Westonci on HLT, whose results have been replicated by no one.



it's been used to induce labour for literally millennia via castor oil because it's so effective at relieving muscle tension despite acting on only 2 of the 4 ep channels



Dermaneedling only works in conjuction with Minox.

nope
Fire? Yeah, let me get right on that.

goodluck
 

Jack Earth

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if it was systemic then local application of botox wouldn't alleviate the issue

my argument is that mpb is entirely about tension in and around the head. you can argue that all manner of things cause this tension and thus the tension is inherently 'systemic' but the actual mechanism that is suffocating hair follicles begins and ends, imo, around the skull.

everything else just seems to be a case of how well you can subjectively handle that tension, before you go bald

maybe i'm being pedantic about the words, but my literal meaning is that the galea, by it's very nature becomes deformed due to LOCAL tension that causes LOCAL hypoxia. i have yet to see any evidence of someone correcting this deformation without some kind of local mechano-therapy, because i do not believe a well functioning system is capable of fixing the fibrosis it created to protect itself, certainly not with any expediency

in short, i do not think mpb is a systemic issue any more than i believe a thirty year old surgical scar is a systemic issue.
You have more info on botox curing mpb?
 
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do you have any more anecdotes of other people who have failed to improve their situations? i prefer clinical studies, hence why i brought up botox

I prefer things that can actually be reproduced in the real world. Otherwise, there are hundreds of studies that show 'results' in MPB but nobody has any results when they try these products on themselves. Here are a few if this kind of stuff is to your liking:


So many potential cures. :rolleyes:

Do you actually know of any living human being who has been successful with Botox?
 

Sweet Meat

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You have more info on botox curing mpb?



 

Sweet Meat

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Do you actually know of any living human being who has been successful with Botox?

would it lend more credence to my argument or the facts presented if i did? you seem to place a lot of faith in anecdotes

i wouldn't even recommend botox for hair loss since it seems redundant. the only reason it's been mentioned is to drive home the point that male pattern baldness is directly alleviated by local application to the muscles that control the galea, where 100% of all male pattern baldness in human history has ever occurred :|
 

mrchibbs

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would it lend more credence to my argument or the facts presented if i did? you seem to place a lot of faith in anecdotes

i wouldn't even recommend botox for hair loss since it seems redundant. the only reason it's been mentioned is to drive home the point that male pattern baldness is directly alleviated by local application to the muscles that control the galea, where 100% of all male pattern baldness in human history has ever occurred :|

The interesting thing with botox is that it forces the muscles to relax. Magnesium+thyroid helps tissues do the same thing. Anti-serotonin substances also help a lot because serotonin activates neuromuscular excitation.
 

Sweet Meat

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The interesting thing with botox is that it forces the muscles to relax. Magnesium+thyroid helps tissues do the same thing. Anti-serotonin substances also help a lot because serotonin activates neuromuscular excitation.

i am quite saddened by this news

i smoke and i got temple regrowth last year (march) when i quit for like...six weeks when everyone was too scared to go outside and i had the world to myself ^_^

i since learned that serotonin is metabolized in the lungs and extremely inhibited by smoke which means i need something to replace my death sticks in the very near future to justify any further interest in regrowth

(anecdotally, mild cardio seems to alleviate some of the symptoms i associate with serotonin, though i doubt enough to justify smoking lol)
 

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