Marxism And The New Age Progressive Movements

haidut

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do you know who said tying the basic income to vaccination and etc?

It is already the law in Denmark. You can have your UBI/unemployment/COVID-19 benefits suspended if you refuse vaccination and/or testing.
https://www.thelocal.dk/20200313/denmark-passes-far-reaching-emergency-coronavirus-law

It is one of the countries with the most widely implemented measures akin to UBI, and quite a few politicians on this side of the ocean have already voiced strong support for modelling any future UBI programs on what Denmark and other Scandinavian countries have implemented. I doubt it will fly, but considering the current environment is quite purposefully engineered to destroy everything that makes us human I find it really hard to believe the powers that be will simply start handing out monthly checks with no strings attached. If they cared so much about us then why engineer everything (for almost a century) so pathologically and quite openly with complete disregard for health/dignity/life/freedom??
 

MatheusPN

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Great post! @Jessie
To people saying that they mute him when he talks about politics and that he is dumb, well:
His views on politics are totally connected and correspondent to his philosophical views, including politics, if you think that his political views are nonsense then if you don't view his science/ biologic approach as also nonsense, you're the one misunderstanding and creating paradoxes.
Peat Supports Anarchism (Talking With Ray Peat #3: The Origins Of Authoritarianism)

About communism, there are lots of approaches to how to achieve it, but communism is simple a stateless, anti-statist and non-market society.
The problem is power, concentrated power, you're too innocent if you think that, principally in our culture, a competition culture, one that profit with war, creating and profiting with misery, a very powerful thing/ man would be and could be a good and omniscient dictator, the "best", who would govern for the good of humanity. Someone who can and wanna to controls people's life so strongly, is clearly a terrible guy.
Communism at least is much more decentralized than Capitalism is.
Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish

Liberals are capitalists, how they are viewed as the left is crazy.
Controlled Opposition, Left Vs Right

The culture affects/ reflects the politics, in Brasil, principally by 1987 to before was a seriously fascist/ dictatorship regime, the culture from this time was very aggressive and authoritarian, was good and normal to torture their child, the education even today ppl say was the best, even knowing the torture the child had, people even today say that during that time had less crime, even considering that a woman who divorce, the husband would be considered an honored man if he killed her. The culture praised brutality.
Its almost unbelievable to think that my parents passed through it... Reasonable parents before was a rare thing...

Brasil since this pandemic is becoming fastly liberal/ conservative. Both authoritarian types. @haidut @Drareg @Energizer
 
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cjm

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politics is a metabolite of economics, economics is a metabolite of human relationships, human relationships are a metabolite of health, and health is a metabolite of...metabolism, which is a metabolite our environment/reality.

Nice!!
 

MatheusPN

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Great post! @Jessie
To people saying that they mute him when he talks about politics and that he is dumb, well:
His views on politics are totally connected and correspondent to his philosophical views, including politics, if you think that his political views are nonsense then if you don't view his science/ biologic approach as also nonsense, you're the one misunderstanding and creating paradoxes.
Peat Supports Anarchism (Talking With Ray Peat #3: The Origins Of Authoritarianism)

About communism, there are lots of approaches to how to achieve it, but communism is simple a stateless and non-market society.
The problem is power, concentrated power, you're too innocent if you think that, principally in our culture, a competition culture, one that profit with war, creating and profiting with misery, a very powerful thing/ man would be and could be a good and omniscient dictator, the "best", who would govern for the good of humanity. Someone who can and wanna to controls people's life so strongly, is clearly a terrible guy.
Communism at least is much more decentralized than Capitalism is.
Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish

Liberals are capitalists, how they are viewed as the left is crazy.
Controlled Opposition, Left Vs Right

The culture affects/ reflects the politics, in Brasil, principally by 1987 to before was a seriously fascist/ dictatorship regime, the culture from this time was very aggressive and authoritarian, was good and normal to torture their child, the education even today ppl say was the best, even knowing the torture the child had, people even today say that during that time had less crime, even considering that a woman who divorce, the husband would be considered an honored man if he killed her. The culture praised brutality.
It's almost unbelievable to think that my parents passed through it... Reasonable parents before was a rare thing...

Brasil since this pandemic is becoming fastly liberal/ conservative. Both authoritarian types. @haidut @Drareg @Energizer
I added somethings and: Its interesting, the govern tortured the adults and the adults tortured their child, while the women were tortured by the government and by "manly" males.
 

j2mugs

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I agree - @Jessie thanks for a great post!

Great post! @Jessie
To people saying that they mute him when he talks about politics and that he is dumb, well:
His views on politics are totally connected and correspondent to his philosophical views, including politics, if you think that his political views are nonsense then if you don't view his science/ biologic approach as also nonsense, you're the one misunderstanding and creating paradoxes.

I think this is the conflation point on this discussion. I don't disagree that his political views are a logical extension of his scientific position, but rather that his underlying presuppositions allow him to make that connection from science to politics. Only materialistic and pantheistic worldviews have the privilege of making that jump.

Some foundational philosophies do not allow that jump because they view humans as being distinct from other parts of nature.

The foundational presuppositions do not change the facts of empirical science however, just how we use that evidence to justify our worldview and validate our philosophies. This means that two people with completely different presuppositions could agree on the science, but disagree on what the science "means". So it doesn't follow that I would have to accept his political theory in order to accept his science. I might not accept his interpretation of the science, but that's not the same thing as not accepting the actual empirical work.

What I'm indirectly saying is that he uses the science to justify his political theory but he can only do that because of his underlying presuppositions. If he had a theistic worldview for example, he would not be able to make the jump because he would have to deal with things like sin and the soul which would be a compounding factors in his political theory and "disconnect" the direct link between science and politics.

For this reason I think his political theory really finds its roots in his presuppositions and he uses his interpretations of the science to validate those underlying philosophies. Regardless of how much we want to appear neutral in approaches to science, religion, politics, etc - we just aren't. We all bring presuppositions into the equation and Ray is no different. That's why I think some of us can come to his political theories and say; "that makes sense" and others say; "what the ???".

It's not the the science - it's our presuppositional framework that determines the validity of his political theory.
 

gaze

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Do you judge Ray Peat by evaluating how healthy people on this forum are? Would you blame peat if someone on this forum got fat and sick from eating 5000 calories and supplementing crazy amounts of progesterone? Probably not, so in the same fashion you can’t judge marx himself based of failed authoritarian states which were supposedly Marxist. karl marx himself has been quoted as saying “all I know is that I’m not a Marxist” in reference to a revolutionary cult claiming to be Marxist. read his actual writings and then you’ll see why Ray thinks along those lines.
 
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I think Dr. Peat believes the scientific approach to competition and Darwinism is wrong.

And he thinks that political systems that rely upon competition are similarly wrong.
 

Drareg

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Great post! @Jessie
To people saying that they mute him when he talks about politics and that he is dumb, well:
His views on politics are totally connected and correspondent to his philosophical views, including politics, if you think that his political views are nonsense then if you don't view his science/ biologic approach as also nonsense, you're the one misunderstanding and creating paradoxes.
Peat Supports Anarchism (Talking With Ray Peat #3: The Origins Of Authoritarianism)

About communism, there are lots of approaches to how to achieve it, but communism is simple a stateless, anti-statist and non-market society.
The problem is power, concentrated power, you're too innocent if you think that, principally in our culture, a competition culture, one that profit with war, creating and profiting with misery, a very powerful thing/ man would be and could be a good and omniscient dictator, the "best", who would govern for the good of humanity. Someone who can and wanna to controls people's life so strongly, is clearly a terrible guy.
Communism at least is much more decentralized than Capitalism is.
Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish

Liberals are capitalists, how they are viewed as the left is crazy.
Controlled Opposition, Left Vs Right

The culture affects/ reflects the politics, in Brasil, principally by 1987 to before was a seriously fascist/ dictatorship regime, the culture from this time was very aggressive and authoritarian, was good and normal to torture their child, the education even today ppl say was the best, even knowing the torture the child had, people even today say that during that time had less crime, even considering that a woman who divorce, the husband would be considered an honored man if he killed her. The culture praised brutality.
Its almost unbelievable to think that my parents passed through it... Reasonable parents before was a rare thing...

Brasil since this pandemic is becoming fastly liberal/ conservative. Both authoritarian types. @haidut @Drareg @Energizer


I think the words and definitions around political systems are completely distorted, it’s riddled with contradiction.
Peat is pro opposition though, he does point of the difference between competition and opposition, competition leans more to destruction of competitors, think monopolizing, opposition encourages discovery.

It’s worse in contemporary times, it’s all about identity with a multitude of influences on behavior, what’s more prevalent now is the desire for every individual to have glory, fame and power, narcissism heavily influenced by fame culture, this individualism is what causes the multi faceted break up of groups into splinter groups as they all seek the "power".
The current "solidarity" brigade on the left are in contradiction, they seek individualism at their core IMO not so much "community", for example mark zuckerberg tells us he wanted Facebook to build a community for us all in a humanitarian sense, we know better.
Interestingly the solidarity brigade including greens like extinction rebellion are earning an income from NGO’s that are funded by rich "capitalists" elites.

These folks have veered to the left because their expectations in life are not being met, they have degrees but the jobs market is saturated, they wanted a home but can’t afford it, they have college debt also, they get depressed and take mediation, it’s a spiral down to insanity and incoherent behavior.

The current "capitalist’s" are being bailed out by the tax payer again , the fed are now buying stocks with taxpayer money, the banks being bailed by the tax payer at close to 0% interest rates will charging the taxpayer up to an 18% interest rate when they need a loan.

The truth of what these systems are is found in the actions the words capitalist, socialist ,communist represent, when we look at the actions of said systems its more akin to a criminal enterprise, the criminal enterprise with the most biological energy behind it defines itself as good, the smaller criminals don’t have enough biological energy behind them and are "overpowered" and can have the word bad assigned to their actions, the actions of the small group are identical in process to the larger group?
If the groups were identical in size but one had more coherent "peaty" biological energy then the "peaty" group should outwit the other group, arguably a high serotonin opposite group is more psychotic and violent and could win but it’s unlikely.
 

CoconutEffect

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In the last podcast with Danny Roddy he asked Ray directly "do you think replacing the current system with socialism will be better" to which Ray answered flatly "No, it would be just as rotten".
There is neither socialism nor capitalism any more. We now have some weird hybrid that managed to combine the worst parts of both systems - i.e. the welfare state and fascism/corporatism. I am pretty sure Ray is against both and is for empowering the individual as much as possible to take matters of importance into their own hands. Not sure what political *ism these views fall within but that's the vibe I am getting from him.
Same, Ray is just anti authoritarian to his core.
 

Drareg

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Can anyone elaborate why Ray is pro-Marxism, free education and a global base income?

As far as I know, Socialism has never worked?

Are these progressive left movements not the same people that are pushing veganism and PUFA? (WHOrg)
They're also anti-small farms? And anti-nuclear families?

Would love to hear some opinions on these topics.

I lean towards the right "red pill" side, but I really don't know enough to make an informed choice.

In a recent interview Peat mentioned those on the right are more intelligent/coherent than the left I think, he thinks it’s a safer bet to stay on the right for now, he’s not wrong, the contemporary left are heavily medicated and the movement is a mental illness. Trying to discuss "peaty" topics with the contemporary "left" could get you killed, the right in some cases are far from "peaty" but more open to dialogue.

The future is a different story, a biologically coherent human should not need the big government style systems we have now, we see this effect in action today with many coherent folks who would do just fine without government interference on the scale we are seeing.
Even more disconcerting is the "grassroots" movements promoted by billionaire owned NGO’s , it’s smacks of communitarianism another elite project, it seems the unelected organizations like the WHO, UN, Bank of international settlements, NATO and various faux green movements are still pushing for communitarianism, they have changed the language around it but the actions and desires are the same.

It still amazes me that the "experts" still have no better idea for political systems and seem to ignore glaring fallacies when extolling human progress, it’s rehashing the past, cut ,copy and paste, all the systems mentioned have broken throughout history and will continue to do so.
 

j2mugs

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Maybe before throwing capitalism out with the bathwater we could give it one more run with zero government interference. That would be an interesting experiment.
 

MatheusPN

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I agree - @Jessie thanks for a great post!



I think this is the conflation point on this discussion. I don't disagree that his political views are a logical extension of his scientific position, but rather that his underlying presuppositions allow him to make that connection from science to politics. Only materialistic and pantheistic worldviews have the privilege of making that jump.

Some foundational philosophies do not allow that jump because they view humans as being distinct from other parts of nature.

The foundational presuppositions do not change the facts of empirical science however, just how we use that evidence to justify our worldview and validate our philosophies. This means that two people with completely different presuppositions could agree on the science, but disagree on what the science "means". So it doesn't follow that I would have to accept his political theory in order to accept his science. I might not accept his interpretation of the science, but that's not the same thing as not accepting the actual empirical work.

What I'm indirectly saying is that he uses the science to justify his political theory but he can only do that because of his underlying presuppositions. If he had a theistic worldview for example, he would not be able to make the jump because he would have to deal with things like sin and the soul which would be a compounding factors in his political theory and "disconnect" the direct link between science and politics.

For this reason I think his political theory really finds its roots in his presuppositions and he uses his interpretations of the science to validate those underlying philosophies.
Great post, I will reply you later man, for now... Its strange how generally I am very lazy to respond the best posts kkkkk
See, I have more than 45 pending posts that I would like to reply to Drareg and Energizer. Besides PM's e.e
BTW another brilliant and finally a summary of * from @Drareg.

I like to make strong claims, principally because I like to try to question/ test my presumptions and because if I am too reasonable people become more afraid or discouraged to engage, then helping less anyone to learn and discover.
I would be very presumptuous to think that I know what Ray thinks, even now I only can go to think that he isn't capitalistic.
Your point continues very validy nonetheless.

A presumption from an egoistic and elitist will be very different on how to use power in relation to an egalitarian and altruistic person.
If you are an egoist, you will try to increase only and principally your thyroid, then from the people who you benefit (especially if, while controlling them) while decreasing the thyroid from other people. A view so pathetic that they can't see how more hypothyroid ppl could affect him or his offspring. Or so egoist that he would prefer to only him to enjoy, then the rest would finish existing when he finishes to or whatever.
The type of crazy belief that utilizing another through coercion, as in capitalism or in a State, through monopoly, both tending to increasing monopolization, are good.
I agree - @JessieRegardless of how much we want to appear neutral in approaches to science, religion, politics, etc - we just aren't. We all bring presuppositions into the equation and Ray is no different. That's why I think some of us can come to his political theories and say; "that makes sense" and others say; "what the ???".

It's not the the science - it's our presuppositional framework that determines the validity of his political theory.
Totally agree! Except that Ray like Zeus are different, they're omniscient.
Maybe before throwing capitalism out with the bathwater we could give it one more run with zero government interference. That would be an interesting experiment.
I would like to know your opinion: Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish
Or your opinion of the elitist philosophy anywhere.
 
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Drareg

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Maybe before throwing capitalism out with the bathwater we could give it one more run with zero government interference. That would be an interesting experiment.

This is a more reasonable path forward for now, we need to take on the central banks to do this, the bank of international settlements is where the protests should be, instead people are taking up arms against transgender folk who make up a tiny percentage of the population, don’t get me wrong it’s an issue but solving transgender propaganda aimed at kids won’t stifle the banks.

The financial system is a casino full of drug addicts, we need to intervene, their continual changing of language makes their cult difficult to penetrate for joe public, it’s easier for joe to vent his anger on topics easier to comprehend like man with penis says he/she is a woman, woman with a vagina says she’s/he’s a man, black people or white people, "deadly" virus doomsday.

Words like fiscal measures, austerity, covid stimulus package, financial instruments are soft, vague and lack meaning to the "uninformed". If we replaced those words with the likes of "stealing from the taxpayer to pay the debts of drug addicted gamblers" or what about "you must give your money for free to a pathological drug fueled gambler so said psychopath can loan the money back you at 18% interest", this might perk people up.

Interestingly many big hedge funds have huge shares in major media outlets, they control the information and create meanings in people effecting behavior , they needed hysteria to cover their 8.5 trillion taxpayer bailout and they are buying up stocks now with taxpayer money, the majority of average joes have no clue this is happening.
 

amd

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According to Marx, Socialism, where the democratic state controls the means of production, is a precursor to Communism and the next logical step after Capitalism.

Once the state controls all the means of production, the next step is total collective ownership of all aspects of society & economy, including private property, for the creation of a classless, moneyless, stateless society.

So Socialism is a precursor to Communism once the state has enough control over society & economy.

But this control is the problem, once the state has all the power it is never interested in sharing it, all you get is corruption and power abuse.

This is just bait, no wonder the US/UK funded the Bolshevik Revolution.
 

Energizer

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Great post! @Jessie
To people saying that they mute him when he talks about politics and that he is dumb, well:
His views on politics are totally connected and correspondent to his philosophical views, including politics, if you think that his political views are nonsense then if you don't view his science/ biologic approach as also nonsense, you're the one misunderstanding and creating paradoxes.
Peat Supports Anarchism (Talking With Ray Peat #3: The Origins Of Authoritarianism)

About communism, there are lots of approaches to how to achieve it, but communism is simple a stateless, anti-statist and non-market society.
The problem is power, concentrated power, you're too innocent if you think that, principally in our culture, a competition culture, one that profit with war, creating and profiting with misery, a very powerful thing/ man would be and could be a good and omniscient dictator, the "best", who would govern for the good of humanity. Someone who can and wanna to controls people's life so strongly, is clearly a terrible guy.
Communism at least is much more decentralized than Capitalism is.
Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish

Liberals are capitalists, how they are viewed as the left is crazy.
Controlled Opposition, Left Vs Right

The culture affects/ reflects the politics, in Brasil, principally by 1987 to before was a seriously fascist/ dictatorship regime, the culture from this time was very aggressive and authoritarian, was good and normal to torture their child, the education even today ppl say was the best, even knowing the torture the child had, people even today say that during that time had less crime, even considering that a woman who divorce, the husband would be considered an honored man if he killed her. The culture praised brutality.
Its almost unbelievable to think that my parents passed through it... Reasonable parents before was a rare thing...

Brasil since this pandemic is becoming fastly liberal/ conservative. Both authoritarian types. @haidut @Drareg @Energizer

I don't have anything intelligent to add to that, lol. However, it's interesting reading about Brazil from your perspective as someone who has lived through the horrible governments.
 

Pulstar

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Folks, can anyone please give me any links to sources where Ray spoke favorably of Marx or marxism? I'm not talking about socialism in general. Just Marx.
 

Amazigh

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Can anyone elaborate why Ray is pro-Marxism, free education and a global base income?

As far as I know, Socialism has never worked?

Are these progressive left movements not the same people that are pushing veganism and PUFA? (WHOrg)
They're also anti-small farms? And anti-nuclear families?

Would love to hear some opinions on these topics.

I lean towards the right "red pill" side, but I really don't know enough to make an informed choice.


Most of Europe and Canada is Socialist to some degree. People forget that and only point to Venezuela. Most societies are a mix and match of economies & govts (Socialism is an economic system, not a form of govt). Therefore, when mixed with a totalitarian govt or dictator, eg. Cuba, it's very different than if it's mixed with a democratic govt, eg. Sweden. Also, it's implemented to different degrees - some countries will socialize companies, others will just socialize certain services like medical care, education, UBI etc.

We have Socialism in various forms here as well, we just don't call it that because it's a dirty word. Eg. police, fire dept, military, k-12 education, public library, social security, medicare/medicaid, etc. - all taxpayer-funded. All the bailouts the corps and banks are getting as well - it's like UBI but not for individual people.
 

gaze

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Folks, can anyone please give me any links to sources where Ray spoke favorably of Marx or marxism? I'm not talking about socialism in general. Just Marx.



there’s time stamps when he talks about marx
 

haidut

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Thanks @haidut for sharing your personal experience with us - I always enjoy hearing first hand perspectives from people. Do you think Ray sees the primary role of the state (in our current situation) as an ordering of resources or as an arbiter of justice?

I think his concerns is primarily with state militarism, as he said when asked a similar question directly. His statement was more or less that as long as the state does not prioritize militarism, it can probably play a positive role in people's lives, with the exact political organization (capitalist, socialist) of the state being of lesser importance.
So, to answer your question - the state can/does probably play both of those roles and whether it does so beneficially for the public or not depends largely on its proclivity for violence/militarism/authoritarianism.
 

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