Many people may suffer from chronic serotonin syndrome

haidut

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A very interesting article, which calls out the widespread usage of serotonergic drugs (usually SSRI), and argues that their widespread use may have created an "epidemic" of a chronic, milder version of the (in)famous serotonin syndrome (SS). Currently, mainstream medicine does not recognize chronic SS as a condition, and most ER doctors are inadequately trained how to diagnose even the acute, often-lethal, version of SS. Be that as it may, as the article states, the chronic milder version of SS is far from benign, it does not resolve by itself, and can unpredictably progress into the acute version of SS. In fact, the chronic version of SS may be much more pernicious and relevant for public health due to its prevalence and difficulty of diagnosing even by experienced physicians. Btw, many of the core symptoms of chronic SS mimic those of viral infections, including COVID-19. It has already been recognized that serotonin plays a role in the course of COVID-19 and contributes to both its morbidity and mortality. Considering that almost 20% of the US population takes antidepressants, it may very well be that many of the severe COVID-19 cases, and even deaths associated with the virus, are in fact acute exacerbations of chronic SS.

Chronic serotonin syndrome: A retrospective study
Indian culture, inability to express feelings and depression: explaining the complex relationship.

"...The study serves as an important reminded for psychiatrists to keep an eagle-eye approach for diagnosing chronic SS. SS typically presents within 24h of initiation of change in the dose of serotonergic agents, and it may evolve very rapidly, leading to death within a few hours. However, mild cases of SS (tremor with hyperreflexia and hypertonia) may be ignored by patients and doctors, and patients continue to take serotonergic drugs for a longer period. Such patients may represent the chronic variant of SS."
"...Generalized body pain, stiffness of the limbs, insomnia, dizziness, and irritability were the common presenting features. Such nonspecific symptoms are often ignored by patients, and even physicians do not take these symptoms seriously and attribute such symptoms to underlying primary disorders or associated somatic complaints or nonspecific drug-induced side effects. A diagnosis of SS is important even in mild and indolent form, as it is not supposed to resolve spontaneously as long as serotonergic drugs are administered. Furthermore, it may progress rapidly to death by an inadvertent increase of the dose or addition of another serotonergic agent. Take home message: The incidence of SS is increasing because of the widespread use of serotonergic drugs. There is a need to improve the awareness about SS among the physicians for early recognition and effective management.
 

tankasnowgod

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It makes sense, since "chronic, low grade" versions of other conditions have been suggested before.

I know that you posted articles before suggesting that Obesity is actually chronic, low grade Cushing's disease. Linus Pauling argued that Heart Disease was actually chronic, low grade scurvy.
 
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haidut

haidut

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It makes sense, since "chronic, low grade" versions of other conditions have been suggested before.

I know that you posted articles before suggesting that Obesity is actually chronic, low grade Cushing's disease. Linus Pauling argued that Heart Disease was actually chronic, low grade scurvy.

Makes sense - vitamin C is known to activate the enzyme PDH and improve glucose metabolism, which is how the heart drug Meldonium works too (not on PDH directly, but through FAO inhibition). I doubt mainstream medicine will ever admit the obesity/Cushing and CVD/ascorbate link, but since serotonin syndrome can be quite lethal if it progresses into the acute form (as the study says), hopefully doctors will change their attitude on SSRI drugs and this alone may help quite a bit improve social cohesion that has been collapsing lately. Maybe even open people's eye about the Matrix they live in. One can only hope...
 

Bluemachine

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I considered trying benadryl after hearing you talk about it being an alternative to cyproheptadine but in the UK none of the benadryl 's available in shops that I can see are diphenhydramine which I think is the drug you were talking about specifically. There is however Acrivastine & cetirizine hydrochloride, do you know if either of these would be effective at lowering serotonin? @haidut
 

qminati

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When I first heard of SS months ago I was perplexed because all the symptoms were actually part of my daily life. When you posted the study on the podcast my hairs stood up on my arms because I had been telling myself I had the chronic version of it. I was born with asthma, had muscle spasms since I was 7. Sleep paralysis when I was 14, insomnia started when I was 19. Twitching at night throughout my 20s, cold sweats and hypoglycemia. Grey hair at 25. Inability to connect with people (pretending to care about a birthday) Muscle rigidity in my 30s. Appendicitis 4 years ago and just last year unbearable stress responses that I am still working on correcting. Serotonin has been my life long adversary and I always felt something was wrong with me but doctors all said I was fine so I thought I was just crazy. I appreciate this information because it gives me more confidence that it is fixable, It will take years to fix but I will at least be able to enjoy my old age in peace, better than nothing. Much appreciated.
 
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TheBeard

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When I first heard of SS months ago I was perplexed because all the symptoms were actually part of my daily life. When you posted the study on the podcast my hairs stood up on my arms because I had been telling myself I had the chronic version of it. I was born with asthma, had muscle spasms since I was 7. Sleep paralysis when I was 14, insomnia started when I was 19. Twitching at night throughout my 20s, cold sweats and hypoglycemia. Grey hair at 25. Inability to connect with people (pretending to care about a birthday) Muscle rigidity in my 30s. Appendicitis 4 years ago and just last year unbearable stress responses that I am still working on correcting. Serotonin has been my life long adversary and I always felt something was wrong with me but doctors all said I was fine so I thought I was just crazy. I appreciate this information because it gives me more confidence that it is fixable, It will take years to fix but I will at least be able to enjoy my old age in peace, better than nothing. Much appreciated.

What is your exact plan to fix it ?
 
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haidut

haidut

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I considered trying benadryl after hearing you talk about it being an alternative to cyproheptadine but in the UK none of the benadryl 's available in shops that I can see are diphenhydramine which I think is the drug you were talking about specifically. There is however Acrivastine & cetirizine hydrochloride, do you know if either of these would be effective at lowering serotonin? @haidut

Yes, diphenhydramine is the generic name of Benadryl. It does not lower serotonin but has some serotonin antagonist effects. You can try 50mg-100mg daily, but I would use more than 150mg daily as beyond that dose it starts to work like an SSRI.
 

qminati

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What is your exact plan to fix it ?
Recognizing everything that raises my serotonin and cutting it out of my life. Keeping a healthy social circle, doing new things I would never have done. Keep a form of creativity in my life on a constant basis. Healthy sex life with more focus on women I actually connect with. Watching more comedy. Hardcore metabolic eating and lifestyle making sure all my actions are supported by my energy levels. Soon as I find LSD from a trusted source I will start experimenting in micro dosing. I have a lifetime of serotonin to bring down which is why cypro and aspirin have very little to no effect on me. I just got back into music production and it is way more powerful anti stress than any pill. Having great conversations with friends does so much more for me than anything. Serotonin made me isolate myself and now I force myself to be around people I care about and it usually works in my favor. I find that controlling what goes into my brain seems to be the most powerful anti stress tactic as long as I have the energy available for it.
 

PolishSun

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It makes sense, since "chronic, low grade" versions of other conditions have been suggested before.

I know that you posted articles before suggesting that Obesity is actually chronic, low grade Cushing's disease. Linus Pauling argued that Heart Disease was actually chronic, low grade scurvy.
That is so true.
 
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TheBeard

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Recognizing everything that raises my serotonin and cutting it out of my life. Keeping a healthy social circle, doing new things I would never have done. Keep a form of creativity in my life on a constant basis. Healthy sex life with more focus on women I actually connect with. Watching more comedy. Hardcore metabolic eating and lifestyle making sure all my actions are supported by my energy levels. Soon as I find LSD from a trusted source I will start experimenting in micro dosing. I have a lifetime of serotonin to bring down which is why cypro and aspirin have very little to no effect on me. I just got back into music production and it is way more powerful anti stress than any pill. Having great conversations with friends does so much more for me than anything. Serotonin made me isolate myself and now I force myself to be around people I care about and it usually works in my favor. I find that controlling what goes into my brain seems to be the most powerful anti stress tactic as long as I have the energy available for it.

Much more direct approach would be to have caffeine and antibiotics.
 

qminati

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Much more direct approach would be to have caffeine and antibiotics.
I drink caffeine daily and carrot salad as well. Do you know which antibiotics are good ones? im allergic to anything that ends with -illin (full body rash)
 

TheSir

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Linus Pauling argued that Heart Disease was actually chronic, low grade scurvy.
I believe this. Some years ago I came across a guy who claimed to have had dosed 10grams of vitamin C for years, according to his doctor he had the arteries of a teenager.
 
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haidut

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yerrag

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I believe this. Some years ago I came across a guy who claimed to have had dosed 10grams of vitamin C for years, according to his doctor he had the arteries of a teenager.
It really depends on what kind of heart disease it is. And what is considered heart disease. And what the doctor means by having the arteries of a teenager. How can a doctor examine his arteries, by the way? I'd like to see that doctor.
 

equipoise

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It's rare to have a talk with someone who's not serotonin dominant these days, or so it seems. Dietary choices, non stimulating life, avoiding any creative engagement like music or painting, getting all the info from the major medias and facebook/IG, unwillingness to experiment. And it's a big trap I'll tell you that.
Playing music is very therapeutic, it engages many usually idle parts of the brain and connects the lost kid in you with the present "adult".
 

yerrag

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Lack of atherosclerosis

Vascular ultrasound, I'd imagine.
Yeah, carotid ultrasound.

Or doctors would say that to pull his leg, as he may be very enthusiastic about sharing his vitamin C regimen, and that that's the best way to segue to the next patient.

Vitamin C is helpful, but not in a way that would give him the arteries of a teenager. Unless someone can explain how.
 

TheSir

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Yeah, carotid ultrasound.

Or doctors would say that to pull his leg, as he may be very enthusiastic about sharing his vitamin C regimen, and that that's the best way to segue to the next patient.

Vitamin C is helpful, but not in a way that would give him the arteries of a teenager. Unless someone can explain how.
C heals the endothelial wall, inflammation/dysfunction of which lays the foundation to atherosclerosis. In reverse, deficiency in C would lead to overaccumulation of LDL.

The observational studies of Paterson were followed-up by another Canadian, Dr. G.C. Willis. He conducted an experimental study on guinea pigs and confirmed Paterson’s suggestion that atherosclerosis is linked to vitamin C deficiency [36] . Willis also pointed out that the mechanical stress exerted onto the walls of arteries is important in the location of atherosclerosis. This mechanical stress is influenced by blood pressure, surrounding tissue pressure, radius of lumen, curvature of artery, and arterial fixation. In a later study, Willis [37] showed that vitamin C could reverse atherosclerosis in guinea pigs. In 1954, Willis conducted a controlled clinical study on the development of atherosclerosis in humans examining the femoral and popliteal arteries. Those in the treated group were given 500 mg of vitamin C orally, three times a day, a total of 1500 mg a day. This preliminary serial angiography study showed that vitamin C could reduce atherosclerotic plaques in humans [38] . It was the first time that the evolution of atheromatous plaques had been observed over a period of time. In contrast to previous assumptions, atherosclerosis is not a slow and inevitable progressive disease. Willis’ serial angiographic study showed that plaques might enlarge or become smaller fairly quickly. The study also showed that sclerotic build up is not evenly distributed throughout the blood vessels, but at specific points where the mechanical stress exerted most onto the blood vessels.
 

yerrag

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C heals the endothelial wall, inflammation/dysfunction of which lays the foundation to atherosclerosis. In reverse, deficiency in C would lead to overaccumulation of LDL.
That's the idea of C with lysine. Yes. But atherosclerosis is not caused only lack of vitamin C. C does not remove oxidized LDL nor prevent it. Plaque can also be formed by biofilms and remnants of wbc's fighting bacteria, and dormant bacteria.

Vitamin C is not even the antioxidant used when spillover ROS from phagocytosis by neutrophils needs to be neutralized.

The long and short of it is that it's too simplistic to say vitamin C keep arteries young. But of course Dr. Axe would have it sound like that as simple explanations are better in the same way fairy tales and parables are better than novels.
 

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