Manufactured citric acid is a powerful inflammatory/allergy agent

[ecstatichamster]

means its allergenic? even if from sugar cane/beets, still toxic to use?
i think Ray said its not supposed to be eaten as a standalone thing even if its totally pure, non allergenic didnt he...

Yes it means it is allergenic.

 

[Dr. B]

Yes it means it is allergenic.

does it mean it only affects people with fungi allergies? or inflammatory response in everyone?
the way Ray uses the term allergenic seems like hes talking about a more general allergenic response, like that everyone gets that allergenic or inflammatory response

 

[yerrag]

It's best to minimize taking too many supplements that are manufactured, but for me it is a best effort basis. When you can't get the natural form through food, it still is an option to take manufactured forms rather than not take anything.

I also think that being allergic to something is an individual phenotype, and so allergenic effects vary. I think Ray Peat is susceptible to allergies, particularly plant proteins, and so he would emphasize the allergenic effects of them. He also says that if one has good metabolism and energy, one would be less prone to feeling the effects of allergenic substances.

I've used USP grades of potassium citate and sodium citrate, and have taken magnesium citrate (Natural Calm) before, and I haven't felt any allergenic effects. I believe that my metabolism isn't doing so bad, and it helps a lot.

Since I now monitor my acid-base balance using breath rate, urine and saliva pH, I can very much minimize my body's sensitivity to allergens. The acid-base balance is affected and affects sugar metabolism in a vicious cycle. For example, when I have a high internal bacterial load that requires a lot of immune system action phagocytizing bacteria, I become more acidic, and my urine being acidic is a good tell. But luckily, I have good metabolism, and this allows my lungs and kidneys to excrete this excess acidity without getting me off-balance acid-base wise. But if I have poor sugar metabolism, I would more easily lose this balance because I have much less of the CO2-biccarbonate-carbonic acid buffering system in me.

In this condition where balance is compromised, my allergic rhinitis would show itself.

 

[Dr. B]

It's best to minimize taking too many supplements that are manufactured, but for me it is a best effort basis. When you can't get the natural form through food, it still is an option to take manufactured forms rather than not take anything.

I also think that being allergic to something is an individual phenotype, and so allergenic effects vary. I think Ray Peat is susceptible to allergies, particularly plant proteins, and so he would emphasize the allergenic effects of them. He also says that if one has good metabolism and energy, one would be less prone to feeling the effects of allergenic substances.

I've used USP grades of potassium citate and sodium citrate, and have taken magnesium citrate (Natural Calm) before, and I haven't felt any allergenic effects. I believe that my metabolism isn't doing so bad, and it helps a lot.

Since I now monitor my acid-base balance using breath rate, urine and saliva pH, I can very much minimize my body's sensitivity to allergens. The acid-base balance is affected and affects sugar metabolism in a vicious cycle. For example, when I have a high internal bacterial load that requires a lot of immune system action phagocytizing bacteria, I become more acidic, and my urine being acidic is a good tell. But luckily, I have good metabolism, and this allows my lungs and kidneys to excrete this excess acidity without getting me off-balance acid-base wise. But if I have poor sugar metabolism, I would more easily lose this balance because I have much less of the CO2-biccarbonate-carbonic acid buffering system in me.

In this condition where balance is compromised, my allergic rhinitis would show itself.

mate life extension sent me an email, green tea extract, rosinic acid, and pomegranate extract supplements as well as juice are all carboninc anhydrase inhibitors

 

[yerrag]

mate life extension sent me an email, green tea extract, rosinic acid, and pomegranate extract supplements as well as juice are all carboninc anhydrase inhibitors

why do you need it?

why inhibit it? it's what makes the carbonic acid-CO2-bicarbonate buffering system work.Why mess around with a good thing?

 

[Dr. B]

why do you need it?

why inhibit it? it's what makes the carbonic acid-CO2-bicarbonate buffering system works. why mess around with a good thing?

to increase CO2 levels apparently you want carbonic anhydrase inhibited, it replicates the effects of high altitude?
acetolazamide, thiamine, are some other inhibitors

 

[yerrag]

to increase CO2 levels apparently you want carbonic anhydrase inhibited, it replicates the effects of high altitude?
acetolazamide, thiamine, are some other inhibitors

I would just make certain I have optimal sugar metabolism and I have the CO2 I need.

 

[Dr. B]

It can also cause dumping of oxalates.

is this good over time?

 

[yerrag]

to increase CO2 levels apparently you want carbonic anhydrase inhibited, it replicates the effects of high altitude?
acetolazamide, thiamine, are some other inhibitors

If you understand more the role of CO2 in the body, you will understand that the body uses it to regulate many processes. The body when healthy does not need more of it. It makes its own CO2. If it makes too much, it exhales it out. It becomes a problem when the body makes too little of it. So you want to use CA inhibitors because your body cannot make enough CO2, is that it?

Why not make less lactate and keto acid instead, and make more CO2- by improving sugar metabolism and lessening anaerobic metabolism and fatty acid metabolism? But you say your sugar metabolism is poor. Are you getting overweight and obese? Then fix your sugar metabolism, and you can see how good or bad it is by testing your blood sugar regulation. I use a 5hr glucose tolerance test that I do at home to find out. If I find my blood sugar curve indicates dysregulation in my blood sugar control, then I have to address that problem. But people here just don't like to mess with this thing. Too troublesome. They prefer some instant solution. And oh, CA inhibitors solves their problem with low carbon dioxide, do they? Sure, if you want to band-aid it. It still does not address the cause of why your body produces too litltle carbon dioxide. it doesn't solve the problem of having poor acid-base balance. And lacking the benefit of a good acid-base buffer in the carbonic acid-CO2-bicarbonate buffering system, you're also more likely to end up in the ER when you meet an acute event like trauma or infection. Your body is simply not resilient enough to weather through emergencies. Even a puny allergen can knock you out.

Stop relying on band aids. Rely on the integrity of your body. If people think and live more along this line, COVID won't be a thing. Your body will knock it dead cold.

 

[Dr. B]

If you understand more the role of CO2 in the body, you will understand that the body uses it to regulate many processes. The body when healthy does not need more of it. It makes its own CO2. If it makes too much, it exhales it out. It becomes a problem when the body makes too little of it. So you want to use CA inhibitors because your body cannot make enough CO2, is that it?

Why not make less lactate and keto acid instead, and make more CO2- by improving sugar metabolism and lessening anaerobic metabolism and fatty acid metabolism? But you say your sugar metabolism is poor. Are you getting overweight and obese? Then fix your sugar metabolism, and you can see how good or bad it is by testing your blood sugar regulation. I use a 5hr glucose tolerance test that I do at home to find out. If I find my blood sugar curve indicates dysregulation in my blood sugar control, then I have to address that problem. But people here just don't like to mess with this thing. Too troublesome. They prefer some instant solution. And oh, CA inhibitors solves their problem with low carbon dioxide, do they? Sure, if you want to band-aid it. It still does not address the cause of why your body produces too litltle carbon dioxide. it doesn't solve the problem of having poor acid-base balance. And lacking the benefit of a good acid-base buffer in the carbonic acid-CO2-bicarbonate buffering system, you're also more likely to end up in the ER when you meet an acute event like trauma or infection. Your body is simply not resilient enough to weather through emergencies. Even a puny allergen can knock you out.

Stop relying on band aids. Rely on the integrity of your body. If people think and live more along this line, COVID won't be a thing. Your body will knock it dead cold.

ah interesting. i was thinking from the perspective of more milk, more muscle, more co2, more thyroid, metabolism etc.
if you are having issues, couldn't the increase of CO2 help the tissues heal, regrow and recover faster? so that extra CO2 could help to recover any damage induced by excess peroxides/hydrogen peroxides or other internal damages, glandular damages, or even external damages?

by improving sugar metabolism, do you mean via exercising, or via diet, environment and supplements. in that case, what should be done to improve its metabolism besides avoiding pufa, using k2, d3, caffeine, etc... should B or c vitamins be added in, vitamin E?

I also wonder apparently excess Co2 can cause "metabolic acidosis"?

good stuff mate

 

[yerrag]

if you are having issues, couldn't the increase of CO2 help the tissues heal, regrow and recover faster? so that extra CO2 could help to recover any damage induced by excess peroxides/hydrogen peroxides or other internal damages, glandular damages, or even external damages?

do you assume the body has no wisdom? do you assume it is dysregulated? and based on this assumption you are giving it ca inhibitors so it will stop doing its job of finding the right mix of CO2, carbonic acid, and bicarbonate to relieve imbalances based on le chatelier's principle?

if you're low on CO2 it's because you're not making enough, so why don't you make more? what do you have to fix to make more CO2? the answer lies there, even if it's not plainly visible and obvious. If it's obvious, but it involves more steps and more time, is it a reason to not do it because there's a substance that you think can do it for you in a snap? of course not, otherwise why be the doctor you're avoiding when you're just doing the same thing as they are. you have to sow the seed, care for the plant, and then harvest - with enough thoughtfulness and patience going into it.

by improving sugar metabolism, do you mean via exercising, or via diet, environment and supplements. in that case, what should be done to improve its metabolism besides avoiding pufa, using k2, d3, caffeine, etc... should B or c vitamins be added in, vitamin E?

You don't need exercise to improve metabolism. that's just doing work. improving metabolism is producing the maximal energy from a given input, and you only do this with sugar and oxygen, supported by enzymes and hormones provided by a healthy body that isn't deficient in any nutrient. you can take many substances but if you are lacking something, you have a limiting factor that will keep you from efficiently metabolizing sugar.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

is this good over time?

It’s hard to say. If someone has an internal oxalate issue from overconsumption-, bad digestion or increased internal production it can be good on paper since we gonna get rid of it faster, but in reality it’s an unpleasant experience so it’s better to just take time with it. I’ve experienced it and it’s not fun.

 

[Dr. B]

It’s hard to say. If someone has an internal oxalate issue from overconsumption-, bad digestion or increased internal production it can be good on paper since we gonna get rid of it faster, but in reality it’s an unpleasant experience so it’s better to just take time with it. I’ve experienced it and it’s not fun.

i remember once reading citrate supplements are anti kidney stone or something? dont know which type of stones they help reduce

 

[Dr. B]

do you assume the body has no wisdom? do you assume it is dysregulated? and based on this assumption you are giving it ca inhibitors so it will stop doing its job of finding the right mix of CO2, carbonic acid, and bicarbonate to relieve imbalances based on le chatelier's principle?

if you're low on CO2 it's because you're not making enough, so why don't you make more? what do you have to fix to make more CO2? the answer lies there, even if it's not plainly visible and obvious. If it's obvious, but it involves more steps and more time, is it a reason to not do it because there's a substance that you think can do it for you in a snap? of course not, otherwise why be the doctor you're avoiding when you're just doing the same thing as they are. you have to sow the seed, care for the plant, and then harvest - with enough thoughtfulness and patience going into it.


You don't need exercise to improve metabolism. that's just doing work. improving metabolism is producing the maximal energy from a given input, and you only do this with sugar and oxygen, supported by enzymes and hormones provided by a healthy body that isn't deficient in any nutrient. you can take many substances but if you are lacking something, you have a limiting factor that will keep you from efficiently metabolizing sugar.

i dont know mate, I thought more CO2 can help, doesn't Ray use exogenous CO2, and I thought this is a way to "cheat" and get the benefits of high altitude without going there. don't carbonic anhydrase inhibitors essentially replicate the effects of high altitude so people take them prior to going on mountain hikes to help adapt to the higher altitude.

in that case, b vitamins and multivitamin could be useful to ensure everything is up to par, and sugar gets fully, properly metabolized and makes co2?

do you have any thoughts or experience with chromium, or SHILAjit. it apparently lowers blood sugar, but Ray doesn't think it's an essential nutrient. i dont know of the mechanism of how it lowers blood sugar. and shilajit has fulvic acid and probably other nutrients

 

[yerrag]

i dont know mate, I thought more CO2 can help, doesn't Ray use exogenous CO2, and I thought this is a way to "cheat" and get the benefits of high altitude without going there. don't carbonic anhydrase inhibitors essentially replicate the effects of high altitude so people take them prior to going on mountain hikes to help adapt to the higher altitude.

If you have a good internal supply of CO2 from optimal metabolism, you can train to scale mountains even with no oxygen tank. If you have poor metabolism and CO2 supply is poor, you will need many aids high up there.

It will take a long time to explain, and I've tried before. I don't know how to explain that is short. It is long and I don't think people can stay awake before I finish explaining. Best if you watch YouTube lectures on acid-base balance, on the role of lungs and kidneys in acid-balance regulation, and on the role of CO2 in tissue oxygenation. In all likelihood, you have to have optimal sugar metabolism that brings about optimal blood sugar balance and optimal acid base balance so you don't need things such as CA inhibitors like you need a crutch. But then, you would also feel invincible because you would also have an immune system that mocks away the COVID Hoax as you would not have even a respiratory allergy.

 

[Dr. B]

If you have a good internal supply of CO2 from optimal metabolism, you can train to scale mountains even with no oxygen tank. If you have poor metabolism and CO2 supply is poor, you will need many aids high up there.

It will take a long time to explain, and I've tried before. I don't know how to explain that is short. It is long and I don't think people can stay awake before I finish explaining. Best if you watch YouTube lectures on acid-base balance, on the role of lungs and kidneys in acid-balance regulation, and on the role of CO2 in tissue oxygenation. In all likelihood, you have to have optimal sugar metabolism that brings about optimal blood sugar balance and optimal acid base balance so you don't need things such as CA inhibitors like you need a crutch. But then, you would also feel invincible because you would also have an immune system that mocks away the COVID Hoax as you would not have even a respiratory allergy.

the optimal sugar metabolism creates the optimal blood sugar and acid base balance mate?
can you review some basic things to have optimal sugar metabolism, beyond the basic avoid pufa, high protein, good thyroid function... are there certain supplements to optimize blood sugar metabolism like chromium or thiamine (which is also carbonic anhydrase inhibitor)

 

[yerrag]

the optimal sugar metabolism creates the optimal blood sugar and acid base balance mate?
can you review some basic things to have optimal sugar metabolism, beyond the basic avoid pufa, high protein, good thyroid function... are there certain supplements to optimize blood sugar metabolism like chromium or thiamine (which is also carbonic anhydrase inhibitor)

Your question is predicated on the use of substances to achieve optimal blood sugar metabolism. Without you knowing it, you are just operating on the big pharma model and not on a wholistic model of health. Until you can change your mindset, anything I say will just fall on deaf ears.

 

[Sulcuscentralis]

O

i remember once reading citrate supplements are anti kidney stone or something? dont know which type of stones they help reduce

most likey oxalate stones.

 

[Texon]

I great study, which goes hand-in-hand with another one I recently posted about in regards to silica (ubiquitous in commercially sold food products/drinks). Namely, just as that other study found silica to be a potent inducer of the endotoxin/LPS receptor TLR4 even in minute amounts, this study below describes the powerful inflammatory effects of manufactured/citric acid capable of causing chronic inflammatory disease in the respiratory, digestive, muscular, bone/joint, etc systems. One may wonder how can manufactured/industrial citric acid cause all of these issues yet its natural version is harmless. Well, the answer lies again in the deviousness of the business interests behind this product. Since its discovery and up until the 1950s citric acid was predominantly extracted from natural sources such as lemon (and other citrus) juice. However, subsequently, it was discovered that it can be more cheaply produced through extraction from a mold organism (Aspergillus Niger), which is highly pathogenic and can cause severe infections in humans. As such, the industrially produced citric acid extracted from that mold contains fragments of that mold's cells, as well as other contaminants. That is the substantive difference between the manufactured and natural citric acid, and it is this contamination in the manufactured version the authors of the study below believe is responsible for a wide range of inflammatory disorders. I wonder how many other GRAS ingredients this cautionary tale applies to as well - i.e. malic acid, salicylic acid, acetic acid, various benzoates, etc are all commonly used preservatives often used as substitutes for citric acid...
IMO, this study also directly corroborates Peat's repeated claims about vitamin C and pregnenolone. Namely, he claims the production process for those chemicals has also changed over the years and their effects nowadays are incomparable with the effects he experienced when he first used them in the 1960s. He thinks contamination in the manufactured versions of those chemicals (analogous to the ones in manufactured citric acid), are likely responsible for the lack of beneficial effects (or even allergic/inflammatory effects) people report nowadays with when using chemicals.

Potential role of the common food additive manufactured citric acid in eliciting significant inflammatory reactions contributing to serious disease states: A series of four case reports

"...Citric acid naturally exists in fruits and vegetables. However, it is not the naturally occurring citric acid, but the manufactured citric acid (MCA) that is used extensively as a food and beverage additive. Approximately 99% of the world’s production of MCA is carried out using the fungus Aspergillus niger since 1919. Aspergilus niger is a known allergen. The FDA placed MCA under the category of GRAS without any research to substantiate this claim. In 2016, 2.3 million tons of MCA were produced, predominantly in China, and approximately 70% is used as a food or beverage additive. There have been no scientific studies performed to evaluate the safety of MCA when ingested in substantial amounts and with chronic exposure. We present four case reports of patients with a history of significant and repetitive inflammatory reactions including respiratory symptoms, joint pain, irritable bowel symptoms, muscular pain and enervation following ingestion of foods, beverages or vitamins containing MCA. We believe that ingestion of the MCA may lead to a harmful inflammatory cascade which manifests differently in different individuals based on their genetic predisposition and susceptibility, and that the use of MCA as an additive in consumable products warrants further studies to document its safety."

"...Manufactured citric acid (MCA) is a ubiquitous substance and one of the most common food additives in the world. Approximately 99% of the world production of MCA is through microbial processes using predominantly a mutant strain of the black mold Aspergillus niger [1]. This method has been the industry standard for production of MCA since 1919, long before the FDA’s involvement in evaluating food additives. When the FDA adopted the Food Additives Amendment in 1958, Congress excluded from the definition of Food Additive the common food ingredients in use before 1958, including MCA. Although the FDA has studied many food additives to ensure that they are within acceptable safety parameters, certain additives were granted GRAS (generally recognized as safe) status by the FDA due to lack of demonstrated harm over a history of prior use [2,3]. Thus, MCA was considered GRAS and did not undergo any FDA evaluation. MCA is one of the most common additives used today, with applications ranging from food to non-food industries. It is estimated that 70% is used in foods and beverages, 20% in the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industry, and 10% in cleaning detergents and softening agents [1]. In foods and beverages, it is used as a flavoring, a preservative, an acidulant, and to provide pH control. The growth of the processed foods industry, pharmaceuticals, and cosmetics is currently the driving force behind the rapid growth of the citric acid market globally."

"...Historically, citric acid was first isolated by William Scheele in England in 1784 from lemon juice imported from Italy [2]. Subsequently, Italy controlled the industrial production of citric acid from lemon juice and commanded a high price for the next 100 years, with peak production in 1915–1916 at 17,500 tons, after which it started to decline due to cost.2 This led to attempts all over the world to find alternatives to its production with chemical and microbial techniques, including commercial production by sugar fermentation [2]. Citric acid was first manufactured using the fermentation process in 1919 in Belgium using Cytromices mold (now known as Penicillium), but this method was abandoned due to contamination and duration of fermentation [2]. In 1917, American food chemist James Currie had begun experimenting with a process of making citric acid from mold. Currie discovered that strains of Aspergillus niger provided high yields of citric acid through a fermentation process using low cost molasses as the raw material [4]. This system was very cost effective and rapidly adopted. Pfizer started to produce citric acid from Aspergillus niger in 1919, and this method is still used today across the world, particularly in China. The molecular formula of the natural citric acid obtained from lemons and limes and that of MCA is the same, C6H8O7. However, the potential presence of impurities or fragments from the Aspergillus niger in MCA is a significant difference that may trigger deleterious effects when ingested. We have done several literature searches and have been unable to find any research evaluating the safety of long term or repetitive exposure to MCA, which has become ubiquitous in processed and pre-prepared foods, carbonated beverages, energy drinks, fruit drinks, nutritional supplements, pediatric and adult vitamins, confectioneries, processed dairy, common snacks, pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, detergents and cleansers. In certain common energy beverages, it is the second leading ingredient following water. We provide evidence with four case reports that ingestion of foods, beverages or supplements containing MCA may lead to increased inflammation, which in susceptible individuals affects the respiratory, gastrointestinal, neurological and musculoskeletal systems. Although MCA is an unnatural substance and is produced from Aspergillus niger, there has been a paucity of research to ascertain its safety with repetitive exposure over time. To our knowledge, this is the first scientific report revealing the potential inflammatory reactions related to ingestion of MCA."

@ haidut
If this is redundant I apologize in advance..appears to be just another example of "nothing to see here".

(PDF) On the safety of Aspergillus niger - A review

PDF | Aspergillus niger is one of the most important microorganisms used in biotechnology. It has been in use already for many decades to produce... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

 

[Lynne]

I nt loooking for citric acid free soft drink at the major supermarkets yestetday: NONE. Not even coke, which I haven't bought Coke for about 1 year but was citric acid free lat time I checked. Seems the only 330-free soft drinks in Australia are a few brands in small bottles you can buy in IGAS, etc, for around $4?